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Originally posted by Slicky1313
so does anyone have any real proof, or shall I say evidence to suggest the earth is billions of years old? yeah, ive heard the expanding storie, and the star storie of how if a 20M light year away star could be seen, theoretically and logically speaking, the star is obviously 20M years old, but what if God placed the light on earth from the star as he made the star, just as the sun, if God did make the sun it would seem logical to place its light here instead of waiting 8 minutes for it. and the expanding universe, what if the universe is only 6 or 7K years old as the Bible claims, and it was made expanded already, not over billions of years to a single point. so is there any real evidence of a billion year old earth, and carbon 14 dating doesnt work there either, and how do we no dino bones are X million years old? how do we find this out, id like to no, since Carbon dating theoretically doesnt work after 50K years, and even then it can have errors in the carbon as dillution as stated i science magazine of a freshly shed snail shell dated 26K years old when in reality it was only a few hours old.
Originally posted by Alec Eiffel
Originally posted by Slicky1313
so does anyone have any real proof, or shall I say evidence to suggest the earth is billions of years old? yeah, ive heard the expanding storie, and the star storie of how if a 20M light year away star could be seen, theoretically and logically speaking, the star is obviously 20M years old, but what if God placed the light on earth from the star as he made the star, just as the sun, if God did make the sun it would seem logical to place its light here instead of waiting 8 minutes for it. and the expanding universe, what if the universe is only 6 or 7K years old as the Bible claims, and it was made expanded already, not over billions of years to a single point. so is there any real evidence of a billion year old earth, and carbon 14 dating doesnt work there either, and how do we no dino bones are X million years old? how do we find this out, id like to no, since Carbon dating theoretically doesnt work after 50K years, and even then it can have errors in the carbon as dillution as stated i science magazine of a freshly shed snail shell dated 26K years old when in reality it was only a few hours old.
Well, when you're in heaven playing harps on misty clouds maybe you could ask God why she deceived the world and made the earth appear old, in the process sending all logical thinkers to hell. Nice party trick, huh? What makes the bible more special than the koran? Or the torah? Or any other religious text?
Originally posted by shmick25
I'm thinking that you should be asking God why he didnt give you the brains to find another theory that actually didnt have so many holes in it.
I wouldnt say logical thinkers will actually be in heaven as I think the Bible still sounds more logical than evolution. Why cant an all powerfull God create an earth in 7 days?
Originally posted by shmick25
Originally posted by Alec Eiffel
Originally posted by Slicky1313
so does anyone have any real proof, or shall I say evidence to suggest the earth is billions of years old? yeah, ive heard the expanding storie, and the star storie of how if a 20M light year away star could be seen, theoretically and logically speaking, the star is obviously 20M years old, but what if God placed the light on earth from the star as he made the star, just as the sun, if God did make the sun it would seem logical to place its light here instead of waiting 8 minutes for it. and the expanding universe, what if the universe is only 6 or 7K years old as the Bible claims, and it was made expanded already, not over billions of years to a single point. so is there any real evidence of a billion year old earth, and carbon 14 dating doesnt work there either, and how do we no dino bones are X million years old? how do we find this out, id like to no, since Carbon dating theoretically doesnt work after 50K years, and even then it can have errors in the carbon as dillution as stated i science magazine of a freshly shed snail shell dated 26K years old when in reality it was only a few hours old.
Well, when you're in heaven playing harps on misty clouds maybe you could ask God why she deceived the world and made the earth appear old, in the process sending all logical thinkers to hell. Nice party trick, huh? What makes the bible more special than the koran? Or the torah? Or any other religious text?
I'm thinking that you should be asking God why he didnt give you the brains to find another theory that actually didnt have so many holes in it.
I wouldnt say logical thinkers will actually be in heaven as I think the Bible still sounds more logical than evolution. Why cant an all powerfull God create an earth in 7 days?
There are too many threads allready that address evolution.
Originally posted by StarBreather
I was pointing out the difference between "a little improbable" and "astronomically improbable".
1. Most mutations look neutral because what we observe are mostly viable results. The non-viables died in the womb, or the seeds didn't grow.
2. Neutral mutations are neutral as long as they vary around an attractor, which is the designed being.
3. If all mutations in general were neutral, then the most DNA would be "junk", but this is not the case. Functions are being discovered now for the so-called "junk".
He certianly did contradict your point that the vast majority of mutations are harmful.
So the series of "small steps" is very elusive. What look like little steps in the built organism has to come from huge rearrangements in the compressed information.
Variation happens within a certain range.
Evolution has never been observed in higher forms of life.
Since when? Please demonstrate that the sort of 'informatio' in DNA proteins, crystals and minerals can only come from intelligence.
Minerals: their properties are causal results of the properties of matter.
Proteins: they are the mechanical result of DNA programs.
DNA: it is a set of interlocked programs, much more complex than any human creation.
The thing to understand, is that between crystals, minerals and proteins on one side, and DNA on another side, there is an increase in the level of complexity.
Spontaneously means "irrespective of it taking seconds or ages".
Therefore, there had to be an influx of organizing information coming from somewhere.
To simulate the workings of creatures and all their ecological interactions takes the computing power of planets and stars.
By this route we can prove that there is no time, not even in a billion years, for life to adapt to its environment on earth by the random steps of evolution.
slicky
yo holmes, I never said it was impossibleI said it was "scientifically impossible"[/quiote]
Listen g-money, alls i is sayin is dat, when youse take in effect like that nutthin cans be 'theologically immpossible' then it don't not much make sense to say yous is meaning like 'scientifically immpossible' stuff is somes how 'otherswise possible' and such.
laws of science, something that that the odds of a 1 with 40 zero's following it is declared scientifically impossible
This taint truly shum tin dats fo' real. Like, dere tain't no biggly book o'scientific like laws and k-wantitative like meaures of 'possible'like and 'yo dis totally ain't possible son, so's don't even trys to start it'
you ever actually did do the chances of evolution happening, they would be HUGE
but like the chances of anyone hactually getting their knob slobbed by's a fine little biddy like's j-lo is hastronomically small, but some's one does gets it done. So by anal-ogys like even ifen its not likely that hevoltion should 'appen, its got, like, what, a million planets or sum such big numba to act on. And yo, dats like ways more blokes dan is trying to to get their bellend in j-los end, numsayin'!?
DNA re construction to create a whole new species is scientifically impossible, and I doubt it could ever happen anyway
Awww well I's is thinkin' youse is pretty smart like then, cos even 'dem totally brainy scientists like don't even tink a new species and what pops up from nuttin
And how do we no the Era of when dino's lived, huh? how do we date these creatures that lived bak in da day
because of all 'dem geostratiagraphic correlations dat all dem biblical 'natural theologists' came up wit all dem many years ago, likes it was practically 50 years ago or somthin that theys came up wit all dat.
look at some of King Nebakanezers documents
Yo, I don't know what sum geezer wrotes in his dokys, but me's don't recall much hearing bout tings like tyranosaurus in effex or no licalotapus runnins around. And lets I think fo a minute, no, i's don't recalls hearing about entire herds and gaggles of tricery topses walking around picadilly and wot.
evolution states that if you kill another person, that is ok because they are weaker than you
Me's don't recalls seeing any ting resemblin' dat in Origin of Species or any of 'dem udda evolutionary-like books. And you, wasn't it some geez named darwin who's said dat nones of whats in nature can like be used to makes up a morality nors an ethics like? Hmmm, me's tinks its mighta been.
evolution states that if you kill another person, that is ok because they are weaker than you
Eww. yo's man, I don'ts think youse need to know dat to not smack it up wits yo' moms and sistas and whatnot, unless we's is talking 'bout 'nother kind of 'sista'. Numsayin numsayin?
evolutuon states people get smarter thru the generations
No, hevolution don't say dat neither, its is only saying dat given 'eredibility and variation, dens natural 'election is gonna aks on it and produces hadaptations, nots dat like everyone's like getsin brainier by da generation.
as stupid as my door bell and didnt have any tools for farms or anything
Yo, i don'ts know 'boutcyor door bell and whatnot, but me's knows that just because someones likes not a farmer don't mean dat dey ain't smartlike.Infactually, i's is noticed dat dems farmers like ain't not toos smart to begingsand with like.
Adam had sewn fig leaves together when he relized he was naked for gramets.
Yo, alls I's knows is dat if me and me eve wuz walking around naked like, me's wouldn't be making up stuff tos cover her ups wit.
but im simply stating some things on how evolution and christian God doesnt mix to well.
Seems mo' like you's is saying dat a literal inter-per-tation of dem bible like books is what don't mix wit evolutions.
I disagree, in evolution, it IS acceptable to kill the weaker
Me's id like to see hows you's can dery-ive dat ethical position from an obersvation o nature.
nuthin wrong with a lion in Africa killing a gazelle
Yeahs but dems is hanimals, nots peepoles. Is don't think dat, 'cos darwins like saying men was aminals dats deys is still honly jes has good has haminals now.
Darwin's own words, of how he was weak, therefore he must die
Nah geez, darwins' didn't say dat
so does anyone have any real proof, or shall I say evidence to suggest the earth is billions of years old?
Yo, me's is pretsy sure dat deys is got what like potasium argon dating and nots to mentium uranium isotopic like datsing to figures dat out. And all dem red shifty thingys wot says the irf is billions o years old.
if God did make the sun it would seem logical to place its light here instead of waiting 8 minutes for it.
Wots it matta wot wouldsa been logical like to no god's and whatnot? Wasn't youse saying dat yous wasn't a christian neitherways? Anyting couldsa been logical and wot to a god, wots dat got to do widit?
what if the universe is only 6 or 7K years old as the Bible claims,
Wot if dat bible was alls made up by some udda god? Wots if the whole world and all dis stuff wuz like, yo, only like made the days before me was born and like? Me's had a mate named eddie and he'd toke on the maui wowi and be all like 'yo, wots if the whole world and all dis stuff wuz like, yo, only like made the days before me was born' and all like dat and me is just like 'yo, you'd best not be tinking you'se can hold on to dat the whole time you's is philospohzingering and wot'.
Again, there is nothing 'astronomically improbably' about evolution and natural selection.
You apparently don't understand. Most mutations are infact neutral, in particular point mutations have no effect on the proteins that are ultimately derived from them. A mutation doesn't have to have any relationship with any 'designer' to be neutral, it merely needs to not make a difference for the organisms fitness.
i fail to see how this is at all relevant if true. Evolution does not require 'huge rearrangments of compressed information'.
And natural selection can change the median point of that range, and mutation will lead to new variation, with the same quantity of 'range', but over a different 'shifted' span. Thats the entire idea of darwinina evolution.
This is patently untrue. Speciation has been observed in fish, fish are 'higher forms of life'. indeed, why should 'higher forms of life' be acting differently anyway?
Crystals: their growth is a mechanical process.
irrelevant. They contain 'information'.
quote: Minerals: their properties are causal results of the properties of matter.
Demonstrate that they are not the result of supernatural design.
quote: Proteins: they are the mechanical result of DNA programs.
They, literally, contain the same information that is in the DNA. You can't maintain that they aren't teh result of design but DNA is, merely because of 'information content'.
What? Humans create complex things all the time.
And between less complex materials and crystals and minerals there is an increas in complexity. 'Increase in complexity' is not a valid way to measure 'supernatural design'.
quote: Spontaneously means "irrespective of it taking seconds or ages".
Spontaneous means that it happens without having to force it. It has nothin to do with time.
quote: Therefore, there had to be an influx of organizing information coming from somewhere.
Yes, organizing information, ie adaptation thru natural selection.
What does that matter? To simulate the movement of individual atoms in a large enough volume of gas would also take 'the computing power of planets and stars', whatever that is supposed to mean.
What? Because modern ecosystems are very complex, life couldn'thave originated naturally? And because of that, evolution does not occur? This is a string of non sequitors, not a line of evidence or even a moderately convining arguement.
Originally posted by StarBreather
The absolute improbability of evolution
I am only interested in scientific explanations.
My point is: shower an organism with radiation, and tell me the mutations are neutral.If you go and mess around with complex systems, you most likely will break them.
Once a system reaches a certain level of complexity, change becomes exponentially difficult without introducing unforeseen side-effects.
Are you implying that a new full-functioning organ (like the eye of the squid) doesn't require massive changes spread all around the genome
Often evolution theory seems to argue from the point of view of "blobs of life" that somehow "adapt" and "select" and whatever. Today we know that there's no such thing as those mysterious "blobs". All is carefully designed.
This could work, but the odds are against it as far as we know (it could work in a guided simulation).
This is patently untrue. Speciation has been observed in fish, fish are 'higher forms of life'. indeed, why should 'higher forms of life' be acting differently anyway?
, except for cases where they saw miscopying of genes and simple doubling of chromosomes. Only having seen this, they said: "it must be speciation". These partial observations and extrapolations can't be accepted as proof.
Even one case doesn't explain all. Just in case you mention it, plants ARE designed in order to hybridize.
The grain of rice is a veritable genetic library. It could grow on Mars.
Crystals: their growth is a mechanical process.
irrelevant. They contain 'information'.
There is no increase of information because you can predict one from the other.
See previous answer. No need for the supernatural here either.
quote: Proteins: they are the mechanical result of DNA programs.
They, literally, contain the same information that is in the DNA. You can't maintain that they aren't teh result of design but DNA is, merely because of 'information content'.
This is a joke, right?
Between minerals and crystals there is no increase in complexity because one can be derived from the other
But DNA encodes information at a higher level than these physical processes.
So there was a jump in levels
This was meant to say that the passage of time is irrelevant if all that you have to explain your theory is a source of randomness. Randomness begets chaos, no matter how many billions of years you keep trying.
Only consciousness can manipulate matter and reverse chaos.
What does that matter? To simulate the movement of individual atoms in a large enough volume of gas would also take 'the computing power of planets and stars', whatever that is supposed to mean.
The complexity of ecosystems can arise naturally, once the species (trees, animals, bacteria) are developed and transported to the location.
What is so improbably about natural slection acting on variable populations with heritable traits and resulting in adaptation and speciation?
Irregardless of however you feel about the ultimate truth of Darwin's theory one can't simply pretend that its not scientific. Waving ones hands and saying something about 'probabilities' like the IDists is not scientific.
That hardly means that most of the mutations aren't neutral. If you expose an organism to radiation then you're probably going to induce so many mutations that of course you're going to get some that are deleterious. Besides, being exposed to mutagens is not the only way that mutations arise.
Drastic change becomes difficult. Small changes do not.
From species to species? No it doesn't. Selection on very primitive light sensing cells can adequately explain the overall evolution of the eye. No one claims that it all happens at once.
If its 'designed' then its designed by natural selection. One does not see design anyway, one sees a succession and array of primitive and variable forms, especially wrt the evolution of the eye.
No, it works in unguided natural wild populations.
This is patently untrue. Speciation has been observed in fish, fish are 'higher forms of life'. indeed, why should 'higher forms of life' be acting differently anyway?
All speciation in higher life form involved loss of information
I don't think that anyone has ever done an 'information content' analysis on the genomes of speciating populations.
So youi are saying that the people studying these cases just don't have a clue what they are talking about, and since, in your opinion, there is not speciation, then, no matter what, there is no speciation?
Sicne when were plants designed to hybridize? And how would that make a differfence? Are you claiming that there are only, like, what, three or four species of plants out there?
quote: The grain of rice is a veritable genetic library. It could grow on Mars.
I have never heard this claim before, nor do I see how its relevant
Its dependant on multiple things, atomic properties are one of them. By this reasoning, biological organismare only predicated on atomic properties.
quote: There is no increase of information because you can predict one from the other.
That simply is not how information works. Merely because one can predict it, and of course one can't here anyways, hardly means that there is no information in it.
Proteins: they are the mechanical result of DNA programs.
They, literally, contain the same information that is in the DNA. You can't maintain that they aren't teh result of design but DNA is, merely because of 'information content'.
It's the concept of a language. Genes use aminoacids as a platform to express information. It is like like a painter that takes pigments of ink (matter) and creates a painting (message). By seeing lots of paintings and comparing their styles, you could say that they "evolved" from each other, which would be true only in a metaphorical sense.
That had absolutely nothing to do with what it was typed in response to. Genes have information, proteinshave information, they don't need for it to be expressed by one another, and, indeed, what relvance does that have anyway?
Pardon, I meant that its not more complex that 'anything humans create'. And, again, complexity is simply not an indicater of Design.
They cannot be derived from one another. If I give you a peice of pure coal you are going to be able to make a diamond? If I give you a melt of a mix of minerals you are going to be able to tell me which ones its derived from? Thats interesting because geolgists often can't do this. To say that a lump of coal has more information that a highly structured diamond is silly.
quote: But DNA encodes information at a higher level than these physical processes.
it encodes at the chemical level, which is the same level that minerals are formed at.
There is no 'jump in levels'
You are apparently not understanding whats 'random' in evolution. Natural Selection acts on variation. Variation is already inherent in populations of organisms, and new variation can arise thru mutations. Mutations occur Randomly. Thats where the random comes in. Scientists do not suggest that new species arise out of unselected randomness. Natural Selection does the selecting.
Natural Selection, even before one looks to see if it exists, can obviously 'reverse' chaos. Besides, intelligence is not required to 'reverse chaos', unless you would content that little angels fly around in clouds making dirty unorderd chaotic water into clean structed snowflakes. Local chaos can be undone.
Then that merely demonstrates that your imagination is limited. One does not need design to have an ecosystem. If a niche in an ecosystem is available, then there will be selective pressure on some populations to occupy that niche. Even in very primitive and simple ecosystems this will be true. And the addition of niches and their becomming occupied will result in more complexity with time, and require no direction, supernatural or otherwise.
I think that perhaps you do not understand what an ecosystem is. The inter-relationships between the organisms are something that has been selected for in each of the individual cases by natural selection. Creating the animals ad hoc to interact and then plopping them down somewhere would mean that the ecosystem has not arisen naturally.
Originally posted by JPeter2122
How is there not evidence to back evolution from primates.. when there are skeletons of neanderthals, cro-magnons, and homo-sapiens(discluding homosapien-sapiens..all though there is in murder cases) well actually this really just back tracks to neanderthals being at most simple...
just evolving to their enviroment in africa or wherever they started from... and just getting dark skin to block the sun for the ones in equater regions... and the lighter skin for sun... and the production of an appendix to consume raw foods(b4 fire was discovered and we learned to cook raw meet, which is why the appendix hardly works for us homosapiens-sapiens now because we dont eat raw meet,
and the appendix will eventually leave) and the eyebraws for blocking sun in your eyes .. or sumthing i forgot what the use was.. now we dont need the eyebraws and it will eventually not be with us... and in the future we are probally eventually going to gain more senses as our very small percentage of brain use we use now... in creases to the 20 % and so...
and probally will lose senses we have today cause we wouldnt need them.... but basically nothing really points to monkeys.. just an idea of how our skull structure used to be and small brain... and that backtracks to single cell organisms.. its just needed as a starting point... cause you cant just have inteligent peoples come up from after a period of non-existence..(meteoroid hitting earth way back when) it just slowly evolves in area of inhabbitants... im just a freshman in highschool so please dont yell alot at me for all the false statements i may have provided... but then again if i do.. please correct me so i can learn..
Originally posted by Frosty
(Picture showing "evolution")
Originally posted by Mxyztos
I'm just curious all you "mathematicians" who have posted where did you see or how did you perform the calculations that proved evolution "mathematically impossible"? Just to add one more thing, and don't flame me for it; how can you just blindly have faith in something that is unexlainable and unfounded other than a book of stories and people's moral?(just curious I can't make that leap)