Police Officer shoots student taken hostage in the head...and gets off

reply to post by cosmicexplorer


Hmm... I wonder how often the hostage dies because some trigger happy BS artist decided that he had too many rounds in his gun, and just let off at the hostage taker for a lark? I would wager that the majority of hostages die because their attackers do them in, or booby trap their locations, rather than as a direct result of action on the part of rescuers. There was that incident where a Special Forces team member lobbed a frag grenade into a room instead of a flashbang, that was messy, but that was just a plain old balls up.

This incident however... You do not accidentally discharge the better part of a magazine in that scenario. There is no conceivable way that happens if the person holding the weapon has the right level of training to be allowed to carry a gun as part of his or her professional life.

I think it was interesting in reading another source on this, for a bit more perspective.

For a moment during the tense standoff, Smith lost his balance and loosened his grip on Rebello when she turned her body away from him. When Smith wobbled, Budimlic fired eight rounds at him. Seven bullets hit Smith, but one struck Rebello in the head.

Rebello was transported to the Nassau University Medical Center, where she died.

Smith, a wanted felon after breaking parole for another armed robbery, died in the apartment.

Source: Reuters

No question, to anyone I'm sure, it's a tragedy. I also wonder about 8 rounds fired with hostage and bad guy in such close proximity. Then again, time isn't the same animal in high stress situations and neither is perception, IMO. Even for cops.

I dunno... I'm thinking what this guy goes through in his own mind is more than any bad shoot finding could have done to him.

The lesson here is being taught almost daily, but the learning process seems too slow.. The lesson is "buy a gun, learn to use it safely and accurately., keep it hidden, use it for self defense." Don't ever depend on the police. Depend on yourself.

When someone has a gun out making demands, everyone would have a gun to deal with him. When the police show up and point their guns at you, use your right to self defense if absolutely necessary..

Quietly exit the area..

Don't forget, calling the police will only get someone killed.

alienreality
The lesson here is being taught almost daily, but the learning process seems too slow.. The lesson is "buy a gun, learn to use it safely and accurately., keep it hidden, use it for self defense." Don't ever depend on the police. Depend on yourself.

When someone has a gun out making demands, everyone would have a gun to deal with him. When the police show up and point their guns at you, use your right to self defense if absolutely necessary..

Quietly exit the area..

Don't forget, calling the police will only get someone killed.

edit on 3-4-2014 by alienreality because: (no reason given)

Very nicely said!!

ETA: It's a good idea to have a deep hole dug way out in the woods somewhere. A place only you know about or frequent. My idea of prepping. YMMV

What do people expect here? The cop has a gun, has spent a few hours learning to be a crack shot, is told to shoot anyone that bothers them and that internal police policy will make it right. The cop has watched LOADS of tv where the "perp" is gunned down by the brilliant cop with a heart of gold - saving the day, and the cop knows what to do because all of those TV shows did a great job of programming for every situation. The cop is a lower educated person, chosen for the job because the do not really want to think, so internal "policy" tells them what to do and policy protects them too - there is no downside to just gunning away.

What do people expect? Folks with guns USE them, they don't have them for "just in case" purposes they have them to USE - do you buy a playstation just to let it sit just in case? Guns kill and that is why they have them! And frankly, the death of the hostage was a win/win because the death payout is cheaper on that death then on an injury - and the lowly scumbag should be dead perp is dead too. Think that sounds harsh, the city folks know the insurance payouts and there is a rule, just like the unwritten quota rule, that says "shoot to kill." That line never says "shoot to maim" but to kill in order to protect the life of a sworn officer. The problem is in these type of situations the programming of tv and "shoot to kill" simply means "blast away!"

Is is wrong? Sure, but I can't for the life of me figure out what people expect. Give a barely graduated high school man or woman a gun, body armor and loads of instructions telling them the world is 99 percent criminal scumbags who just want to hurt said cop and people expect diplomacy? Give that same person killer video games, endless tv show and movie violence and people figure what exactly will happen when cop with gun means shifty eyed person?

Here is the lesson. Cops arrest or kill, and nothing else. When they are called they are told to quickly find someone to arrest - tax, and if they feel uncomfortable at all to simply "do what needs to be done" to take care of themselves. The cops make their own policy, so it stands to reason that their policy will in fact favor their lives first and tax collection right next to it. They are not trained in human interaction, after all, what human interacts with another wearing body armor and a glock and a piece of paper in their pocket stating they have a "policy" base right to harm with impunity. So call the cops only when you want to be arrested yourself because they do not care who they arrest and it might as well be you?

Is this sad? Sure but what on earth do people expect? Are they still living in the 50's when a policeman was the town go to guy for help? You're better off calling the fire department as they are TRAINED to help, not tax or kill, and they actually might work to resolve a situation in a real manner - of you could stop relying on others...

cosmicexplorer
reply to post by deadcalm

 

May I ask you something....just to play devils advocate....what would you have done if you arrived on scene..you see a hostage....and the bad guy points the gun at you...what do you? just curious...

Not arrive on the scene of a kidnapping by gun point without back up or proper cover for one! The cop should have been cautious in this situation but he wasn't and his mistake lead him to another. Which ended up in the death of an innocent. Play devils advocate all you want, cop was wrong.

the problem is we dont know all the facts..

reply to post by cosmicexplorer


I'll grant you that...however...consider that because of the 911 call, the police were aware of 2 things for sure

1) He was armed
2) He had multiple hostages

In no situation that I can think of should any officer go charging in, potentially risking the life of the hostages. Although we don't know all the facts...I'm sure we can at least agree on that.

As far as I am aware he shot both of them with his service pistol. Likely a .40 Glock 23.

and the bad guy fires at you

reply to post by cosmicexplorer


The bad guy in this case did not fire at the officer.


In this case...is it still a defensible shooting?

I dunno... I'm thinking what this guy goes through in his own mind is more than any bad shoot finding could have done to him.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Oh Wrabbit...you have no idea how much I'd like to believe that...but I've met way too many cowboy cops with zero remorse for anything that literally itch to go out there and look like a hero dispatching bad guys.

In this case a 21 year old girl, with her entire life ahead of her paid for it with her life.

Such a senseless tragedy.

cosmicexplorer
reply to post by deadcalm

 

May I ask you something....just to play devils advocate....what would you have done if you arrived on scene..you see a hostage....and the bad guy points the gun at you...what do you? just curious...

You do what police used to do.... fall back. Take cover. Send in a negotiator to try to talk the guy down and surrender. That's what they used to do back in the days when life was valued just a little bit.

Mamatus
I will not debate this incident with anyone. The point the OP made is that the trend for death by cop is WAY on the increase. Please don't lose yourselves in the particulars of this one incident. Getting lost in the particulars of a single incident is nothing more than a distraction from the OP's point. Here let me help.

THE COPS ARE KILLING WAY TO OFTEN AND FOR WAY TOO LITTLE. I never used to get scared during a traffic stop, not being a criminal and having insurance, registration and whatnot I should not be afraid. Sadly I am very afraid. One wrong move and the cops shoot first ask later.

This is not the America I dreamed of living in. I am mad as hell but without one clue as to how to change it. So instead of going to a cops home that has abused his power and killing the SOB myself..... I whine on ATS.

I am embarrassed to be such a wimp.

edit on 3-4-2014 by Mamatus because: Gwammer and speeeeling

First off I agree...with what you are saying on the trend of cops killing a little bit quicker than normal...but for you to say "dont lose yourselves in the particulars of this one incident" makes me ashamed....that is what we do on ats...we dig...we look for details and particulars....your statement shows me there is no chance of ever debating with someone like you because your mind is made up.

deadcalm

the problem is we dont know all the facts..

reply to post by cosmicexplorer

 

I'll grant you that...however...consider that because of the 911 call, the police were aware of 2 things for sure

1) He was armed
2) He had multiple hostages

In no situation that I can think of should any officer go charging in, potentially risking the life of the hostages. Although we don't know all the facts...I'm sure we can at least agree on that.

As far as I am aware he shot both of them with his service pistol. Likely a .40 Glock 23.

but that is precisely my point! Cops are trained that if there are shots fired, whcih idk if there were, that they should rush in and bring the incident to an end. Maybe we could agree on this....cops need more training?

reply to post by cosmicexplorer


Duck behind the cover that I was standing behind. Why would I walk out into the open in front of an armed robber?

TrueBrit
reply to post by cosmicexplorer

 

Hmm... I wonder how often the hostage dies because some trigger happy BS artist decided that he had too many rounds in his gun, and just let off at the hostage taker for a lark? I would wager that the majority of hostages die because their attackers do them in, or booby trap their locations, rather than as a direct result of action on the part of rescuers. There was that incident where a Special Forces team member lobbed a frag grenade into a room instead of a flashbang, that was messy, but that was just a plain old balls up.

This incident however... You do not accidentally discharge the better part of a magazine in that scenario. There is no conceivable way that happens if the person holding the weapon has the right level of training to be allowed to carry a gun as part of his or her professional life.

Do you have some firearms training im not aware of? I was on swat for a few years....and what the military doesnt tell you is every civilian they killed....I was in the army and a cop...when a cop #s up the world knows about it...when the army #s up very seldom do people hear it.

I agree shooting half the magazine like mad sounds crazy...im not saying this guy was right...but there are situations where a cop is "forced" to go in by the training they give them. And the fact is...cops do not get enough training...they are expected to know the law damn near as well as lawyers....shoot like they are on some specs op team....be able to be a mma fighter...and have the ability to negotiate everything down to a cup a tea.

Do you have any firearms training...with live fire scenarios and real roleplayers? Or better yet... real experience in this? Because hostages die all the #ing time....even with the best of the best...hell the spetsnaz shoot everyone half the time haha...but they are a different breed!

reply to post by cosmicexplorer

Maybe we could agree on this....cops need more training?

Uuuhhgghh ...

Maybe the system should do a better job screening the folks who apply for the job ... and focus on what their motivations are. Training has little to do with fixing mentality. That is achieved through time (and sometimes training). Better to get the right person for the job initially ... rather than trying to mould a person to fit the requirement.

Cops are trained that if there are shots fired,

reply to post by cosmicexplorer


Not one of the three articles I read about this mentioned any shots being fired, however he did point the gun in the cops direction a number of times. So that doesn't apply here.

Maybe we could agree on this....cops need more training?

We can certainly agree on that.

But if this is common practice in police regs to put the victims life in danger, I'd go further and say that policy also needs to be changed so that the life of innocents are given priority.

reply to post by cosmicexplorer

Hey cos, since you were an officer and on a swat team, what is the policy for this situation? My impression, outdated as it may be, was that an officer should not take a shot in this situation with someone holding a hostage at gunpoint. What do they teach you about this scenario? Maybe I am the one that has watched too many movies.

cosmicexplorer

Mamatus
I will not debate this incident with anyone. The point the OP made is that the trend for death by cop is WAY on the increase. Please don't lose yourselves in the particulars of this one incident. Getting lost in the particulars of a single incident is nothing more than a distraction from the OP's point. Here let me help.

THE COPS ARE KILLING WAY TO OFTEN AND FOR WAY TOO LITTLE. I never used to get scared during a traffic stop, not being a criminal and having insurance, registration and whatnot I should not be afraid. Sadly I am very afraid. One wrong move and the cops shoot first ask later.

This is not the America I dreamed of living in. I am mad as hell but without one clue as to how to change it. So instead of going to a cops home that has abused his power and killing the SOB myself..... I whine on ATS.

I am embarrassed to be such a wimp.

edit on 3-4-2014 by Mamatus because: Gwammer and speeeeling

First off I agree...with what you are saying on the trend of cops killing a little bit quicker than normal...but for you to say "dont lose yourselves in the particulars of this one incident" makes me ashamed....that is what we do on ats...we dig...we look for details and particulars....your statement shows me there is no chance of ever debating with someone like you because your mind is made up.

Perhaps I should have been more clear. Instead of whining on ATS we should start dragging these shooters into the streets. This will not happen as most of us spend more time whining on ATS then actually doing something about it.

Snarl
reply to post by cosmicexplorer

 

Maybe we could agree on this....cops need more training?

Uuuhhgghh ...

Maybe the system should do a better job screening the folks who apply for the job ... and focus on what their motivations are. Training has little to do with fixing mentality. That is achieved through time (and sometimes training). Better to get the right person for the job initially ... rather than trying to mould a person to fit the requirement.

They do...they go through a psychological test and from what ive seen...more guys fail out there than anywhere else...so should they do two? IM telling you from my own experience...a street cop is lucky to shoot 50 rounds a year...and thats when they qualify and maybe go through some kind of training scenario. That is not enough training for a hostage situation.

As I mentioned earlier spec teams get resources training...3 to 1 man power....a street cop gets a #ty scenario that they are often ill prepared for...sure they are the ones there and they signed up for it...they have to deal with it...but the other side is...if they dont get proper training you really are setting them up for failure and society up for loss.

Cops need training on more than just shooting...hostage situation...its a no win situation.

Mamatus

cosmicexplorer

Mamatus
I will not debate this incident with anyone. The point the OP made is that the trend for death by cop is WAY on the increase. Please don't lose yourselves in the particulars of this one incident. Getting lost in the particulars of a single incident is nothing more than a distraction from the OP's point. Here let me help.

THE COPS ARE KILLING WAY TO OFTEN AND FOR WAY TOO LITTLE. I never used to get scared during a traffic stop, not being a criminal and having insurance, registration and whatnot I should not be afraid. Sadly I am very afraid. One wrong move and the cops shoot first ask later.

This is not the America I dreamed of living in. I am mad as hell but without one clue as to how to change it. So instead of going to a cops home that has abused his power and killing the SOB myself..... I whine on ATS.

I am embarrassed to be such a wimp.

edit on 3-4-2014 by Mamatus because: Gwammer and speeeeling

First off I agree...with what you are saying on the trend of cops killing a little bit quicker than normal...but for you to say "dont lose yourselves in the particulars of this one incident" makes me ashamed....that is what we do on ats...we dig...we look for details and particulars....your statement shows me there is no chance of ever debating with someone like you because your mind is made up.

Perhaps I should have been more clear. Instead of whining on ATS we should start dragging these shooters into the streets. This will not happen as most of us spend more time whining on ATS then actually doing something about it.

Well if you want revolt my brother im your guy lol....I think what our government is doing from top down is wrong and needs a complete wipe....but that is a topic for another thread..and one that gets banned all too often around here...

as a bull# disclaimer let me write "a peaceful revolt" ...if you know what i mean.