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Revelation on the 144,000 - the Raptured?

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posted on Mar, 9 2014 @ 09:07 PM
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UxoriousMagnus

ketsuko
reply to post by UxoriousMagnus
 


And yours is just one of the schools of thought. There are several.


uh.....no kidding.

I have no more proof of my beliefs than a futurist (you) or a historisist (Luther) does.
edit on 8-3-2014 by UxoriousMagnus because: (no reason given)


Agreed.

That's why it's called faith.




posted on Mar, 9 2014 @ 09:11 PM
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ketsuko

UxoriousMagnus

ketsuko
reply to post by UxoriousMagnus
 


And yours is just one of the schools of thought. There are several.


uh.....no kidding.

I have no more proof of my beliefs than a futurist (you) or a historisist (Luther) does.
edit on 8-3-2014 by UxoriousMagnus because: (no reason given)


Agreed.

That's why it's called faith.


indeed my friend

indeed



posted on Mar, 9 2014 @ 10:33 PM
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LABTECH767
reply to post by UxoriousMagnus
 


I see your point and was not disputing it but have seen a worrying trend of late among many whom think the esoteric is the truth and have turned to gnosis, while gnosis is good when applied with faith to over rule those little nagging questions it can throw up and the well over two thousand years of sophist belief which wormed it's way into various christian sect's as well as the main churches themselves with all the pitfall's and trap's that are lain among it's hidden occultist esoteric tradition's it is alway's good to remember like moses god tended to choose the humble and not the philosophers as his servant's but sometime's particularly good men among them did and do serve his will such as Joseph of Arymithea or indeed the fabled Solomon.
For me though I accept my opinions may be wrong but they are personal, I believe in the resurection to a new form as spoken by christ when a problematic scenario was posited to him about a woman whom married only for her husband to die and she than as was the tradition had to marry his brother with the express purpose of begetting an heir for her dead husband and so went through seven brothers, you know the parable, He replied that in the resurrection we are neither given nor taken in marriage and woman and men are equal in the sight of god, indeed they are of the same form as the angel's being given a new celestial/universal/spiritual/angelic body like the angel's, which plays into the passage that man was made to work, we (or those whom are deemed worthy or given such mercy by the lord) are the next generation of angel's (which raised question's were the angel's a previous race of man) and for me judgement day comes for each of us before the almighty as spiritual being's, and We can die anytime so our own judgement day is alway's a whisker away though it may also be a mass judgement of all the soul's of man, as you also know the damned are also immortal but cast into the eternal damnation and the lake of fire were there WORM shall not die.
I accept I may be wrong but I believe in God the Father and Jesus and believe you do also.
What I was driving at is that among the Gnostic path and the Sophist tradition's are many road's and secret order's which lead only to damnation and service to those whom are not god, Remember how the Alpha and Omega bade John of Patmos to stand for they were fellow servant's of the Lord and would not suffer him to bow before him, well among the sophist's and the Gnostics they have rank's especially among the terribly misguided and incorrect masonic orders and have as part of there initiation bowing and being led, Beware the blind leading the blind for they go streight into the hole, as part of there initiationa blindfold is used and they claim it is symbolic of being shown the light for the first time, WHOSE LIGHT.
You know they have even twisted sophisim and gnosis to such a perverse degree that they interprest christ as Lucifer, Remember how they accused christ of casting demon's out by the authority of Baal Zebub and how christ replied if satan cast satan out how could he stand, a house divided can not stand.
I just wish they would see there error and turn away before many good soul's among's them are lost.
I have said my peace and wish not to divert your thread but I think you understand.


Labtech,

uh...wow....you kind of hit me with a bunch of stuff here.

And I apologize as I didn't see it until now.

I am not trying to be rude but simply telling you....I am not sure where you are coming from.

Much of what you say....I agree.....but much I don't understand.

I am not trying to get you to restate your position.....just wanted you to know I read it and am having a hard time grasping it.



posted on Mar, 9 2014 @ 11:37 PM
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UxoriousMagnus

ketsuko
reply to post by UxoriousMagnus
 


If that were the case, every denomination would have to be millennialist, and nowhere near all of them are. I was brought up in a denomination that isn't. My own millennialist beliefs are due more to my own gut instinct than any church teachings or preachings. The very most I was ever taught out of the Book of Revelation was the bit about Jesus coming soon, but it was always done in a vague way as though it could happen at some point in the next 10 years or the next 1,000 or never. Certainly it was never the "selling" point of the church to get people into the pews.


no.....we are just simply in whatever comes after. The Bible doesn't tell us what comes after everything is fulfilled.

This is it.


well. yea it does.


REV 21 1-4 NASB
The New Heaven and Earth
21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will [a]dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”


this is after the seven seals, seven trumps, seven bowls, the 1000 yrs, and the judgement. if that's not telling us what happens after all is fulfilled, i don't know what is.

the rest of the chapter give a little more description, now it may tell you everything you want to know. but i do think it gives a good idea of what to expect.
edit on 9-3-2014 by hounddoghowlie because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 10 2014 @ 01:05 AM
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LokiToo


Chapter 8, a Lamp falls that induces a bitter drink. The Lamb falls to enlighten, endures slander for selfless advantage. The Lamp is called Wormwood: the primary active ingredient of absinthe; ah, bet sin / the a,b sin (letters rearranged). The wormwood contains 1/3rd of the waters, about the amount contained in the ice caps. Wormwood embitters, (cursed with slander?)


I stopped reading here.

You don't understand what you're reading yourself, the waters are the people, not water like in the sea.

Revelation 17:15
15 Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.

The rapture is a false doctrine as well, it says AT THE LAST TRUMP, we shall all be changed. That is the return of Christ.

It's very important to understand these words, we don't have much time.




posted on Mar, 10 2014 @ 01:20 AM
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hounddoghowlie

UxoriousMagnus

ketsuko
reply to post by UxoriousMagnus
 


If that were the case, every denomination would have to be millennialist, and nowhere near all of them are. I was brought up in a denomination that isn't. My own millennialist beliefs are due more to my own gut instinct than any church teachings or preachings. The very most I was ever taught out of the Book of Revelation was the bit about Jesus coming soon, but it was always done in a vague way as though it could happen at some point in the next 10 years or the next 1,000 or never. Certainly it was never the "selling" point of the church to get people into the pews.


no.....we are just simply in whatever comes after. The Bible doesn't tell us what comes after everything is fulfilled.

This is it.


well. yea it does.


REV 21 1-4 NASB
The New Heaven and Earth
21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will [a]dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”


this is after the seven seals, seven trumps, seven bowls, the 1000 yrs, and the judgement. if that's not telling us what happens after all is fulfilled, i don't know what is.

the rest of the chapter give a little more description, now it may tell you everything you want to know. but i do think it gives a good idea of what to expect.
edit on 9-3-2014 by hounddoghowlie because: (no reason given)


That sounds almost like Heaven to me....no mourning, no crying, no pain, no death......

All of the churches that I have gone to always mention the 1000 year reign. It seems to be very important. It seems to be a golden star on the lapel of Christians.

My question is.....if it is such a big deal....can you show me where Jesus or one of his twelve closest friends ever mention it? It must be there....somewhere other than just the Apocalypse.

Verse 11 of chapter 1 of the Apocalypse....tells you who "Revelations" was written to and who was to read it and who would understand it and now they are all gone......for 2000 years I might add.

Revelations is the most fought over and debated book in the bible....everyone has a different take on it....even though it is called "revelations" which means to reveal and make clear.....it is the most unclear thing ever written!!

I think this is because it was written for someone who would understand it.....as it proclaims in verse 11



posted on Mar, 10 2014 @ 10:39 AM
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UxoriousMagnus

hounddoghowlie

UxoriousMagnus

ketsuko
reply to post by UxoriousMagnus
 


If that were the case, every denomination would have to be millennialist, and nowhere near all of them are. I was brought up in a denomination that isn't. My own millennialist beliefs are due more to my own gut instinct than any church teachings or preachings. The very most I was ever taught out of the Book of Revelation was the bit about Jesus coming soon, but it was always done in a vague way as though it could happen at some point in the next 10 years or the next 1,000 or never. Certainly it was never the "selling" point of the church to get people into the pews.


no.....we are just simply in whatever comes after. The Bible doesn't tell us what comes after everything is fulfilled.

This is it.


well. yea it does.


REV 21 1-4 NASB
The New Heaven and Earth
21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will [a]dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”


this is after the seven seals, seven trumps, seven bowls, the 1000 yrs, and the judgement. if that's not telling us what happens after all is fulfilled, i don't know what is.

the rest of the chapter give a little more description, now it may tell you everything you want to know. but i do think it gives a good idea of what to expect.
edit on 9-3-2014 by hounddoghowlie because: (no reason given)



My question is.....if it is such a big deal....can you show me where Jesus or one of his twelve closest friends ever mention it? It must be there....somewhere other than just the Apocalypse.

Verse 11 of chapter 1 of the Apocalypse....tells you who "Revelations" was written to and who was to read it and who would understand it and now they are all gone......for 2000 years I might add.

I think this is because it was written for someone who would understand it.....as it proclaims in verse 11



your kidding right,i can't believe you just asked that, Jesus told the twelve him self. haven't you ever read Mat 24.

just a few Passages



Mat 24:4-8 NASB
4 And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the [c]Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
9 “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 At that time many will [d]fall away and will [e]betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 Because lawlessness is increased, [f]most people’s love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole [g]world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.





Mat 24:15-22 NASB
15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 [h]Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no [j]life would have been saved; but for the sake of the [k]elect those days will be cut short


he told them this knowing full well that they would preach it.

and again.



2 Peter 3:3-15
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 For [a]when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
A New Heaven and Earth
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. 14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation


you also have Acts, although believed to written by Luke who was not a apostle, it still alludes to the end times.



Acts 3:19 NASB
19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;





Acts 17:30-31 NASB
30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all me by raising Him from the dead.”


this form john


John 14:1-3 NASB
14 “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.


paul


1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NASB
3 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep [a]in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


these are just some off the top of my head, i'm sure there's more. i haven't even went through all the books of the other apostles or paul.

it is there plain to see in the books and letters of the apostles and the diciples, you just got to have eyes that see.



posted on Mar, 10 2014 @ 11:30 AM
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hounddoghowlie

UxoriousMagnus

hounddoghowlie

UxoriousMagnus

ketsuko
reply to post by UxoriousMagnus
 


If that were the case, every denomination would have to be millennialist, and nowhere near all of them are. I was brought up in a denomination that isn't. My own millennialist beliefs are due more to my own gut instinct than any church teachings or preachings. The very most I was ever taught out of the Book of Revelation was the bit about Jesus coming soon, but it was always done in a vague way as though it could happen at some point in the next 10 years or the next 1,000 or never. Certainly it was never the "selling" point of the church to get people into the pews.


no.....we are just simply in whatever comes after. The Bible doesn't tell us what comes after everything is fulfilled.

This is it.


well. yea it does.


REV 21 1-4 NASB
The New Heaven and Earth
21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will [a]dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”


this is after the seven seals, seven trumps, seven bowls, the 1000 yrs, and the judgement. if that's not telling us what happens after all is fulfilled, i don't know what is.

the rest of the chapter give a little more description, now it may tell you everything you want to know. but i do think it gives a good idea of what to expect.
edit on 9-3-2014 by hounddoghowlie because: (no reason given)






it is there plain to see in the books and letters of the apostles and the diciples, you just got to have eyes that see.











you didn't give one instance where he talks about the 1,000 year reign. You are trying to make some verses fit into what your idea of the 1,000 reign should look like.

It is called shoe horning.

futurists have to do this a lot with the bible.....make the verses try to fit into the meaning that they want it to.



posted on Mar, 12 2014 @ 04:12 PM
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Wow. So many people getting things wrong here. I almost don't know where to start. Well, lets do this chronologically here.

In the beginning. The 144,000 are not the raptured. If you read Rev. 7-9 you see the raptured are already in heaven just after the 144,000 are chosen. The 144,000 are not part of the first rapture. Though you do see them in heaven later in Revelation 14.

To St. Udio on the whereabouts of the "lost tribes of Israel". Genesis 48 and 49 makes it clear where they have gone. Per the prophesies they were supposed to mingle with and become nations on the earth. While Ephraim was supposed to become multiple nations. Essentially by the end times Israel was supposed to become the majority population of the earth. Probably 60 to 90% plus.

On the debate of futurist vs millennialist here's the prophesy from the bible that solves the issue. The day of Jezreel prophecy in Hosea. In that prophecy it was predicted that Israel and Judah were to face a long term Leviticus 26 curse. But buried in the fine print is the timeframe of the curse. And here's the verses.

Hosea 6
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

And this should clarify what the days mean.

2nd Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Those 3 days are thousand year periods of time. 2 days cursed and a day of Jezreel as the 3rd day. And if you look at the history of the Jews for the past 2000 years it's apparent they are serving their punishment.

Which then means the futurist is right. The 1000 year reign of the saints hasn't happened yet. It's the day of Jezreel by another name. And the Apocalypse doesn't happen until the end of the curse.


Oh, and a trick I figured out here is that much of what Jesus Christ is talking about is references to Old Testament prophecy. The trick is making the connections.




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