Thoughts on the Flood and Evolution.(Thanks to Flyers Fan)

Ok,

So basically you say God cannot exist because the Flood never happened. First off, this has never actually been proven(although I agree there are some evidences against it), and nor has it been proven to actually happen(although there are some evidences for it). I take the Flood as a matter of faith.

Now quite honestly, one of the best arguments you had was that trees older than the Flood should not still be alive. However, God says numerous times in the Bible that he will destroy all flesh. I believe it is possible God lent some kind of supernatural protection to the plants, and another theory is that plants were still much closer to their perfect state(Just like the Humans back in those times appeared to live far longer)making them more resilient.

This may have not been the type of answer you were looking for, but I have no problem relying on Faith when it comes to the Flood. I could sit here and argue with you over whether the Flood actually happened, but at the end of the day it will come down to faith for both sides of the argument because all either of us can do is show circumstantial evidence to support our opinion on the fact at hand. This isn't going to get us anywhere. However for the sake of conversation I do have a question for you Flyers Fan. In one of your previous post on the other thread you said:

and quoting a myth that has been (poorly) transposed by the Hebrews from the Summerians isn't 'proof'

Can you prove to me that this is what happened? No. It is circumstantial, and you infer that is how those events played out. How do we know the Summerians didn't transpose their flood story from oral traditions of the Hebrews? We don't, but it is no less accurate then what you are assuming. Does it mean I am right, and have proven the Flood ? No.

Another thing you stated that confused me it this:

If Noahs Ark happened - the human race couldn't reproduce and survive with only 3 pair of reproducing humans.

So you are telling me that this is impossible? How then can Science say that we spawned from a single celled-organism in which genes randomly mutated to create a new species? You see here is the major flaw with Evolution. It works off mutations. So this single celled organism mutated, and now we have to infer that its mutations are positive mutations and that they are dominant genes ready to be passed on to the offspring. Not only do these inferences have to be made for the single-celled organism that existed in the Primordial Soup, but every organism there after, which once asexual reproduction no longer becomes possible is much much harder to assume things could reproduce or that the mutations would be present within the next generation. For example, the first animal that evolved to reproduced sexually, what did it mate with. I have offered this argument before, and people give me a fish that can reproduce both ways as an example. This is another inference made by Scientist regarding macro-evolution, that just doesn't work. You cannot make that many assumptions without evidence.

I would also like to leave with another thought on evolution. If natural selection works, then why do we constantly try to intervene with the process with Selective Breeding.

I mean if natural selection works as Science says wouldn't leaving say the Dog population to breed on its own(rather than selective breeding) get us much closer to the desirable traits everyone wants? I mean breeders can only choose from traits existent in that gene pool, and if all the desired traits exist in that gene pool, does it not mean that the animal was once a perfect specimen?


I would like to leave by asking anyone to give me an example of an observed positive mutation, because as far as I know one has never been shown to occur rather only inferred.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


Interesting little thread! People of faith know the truth and all
others will eventually know it as well.It is,unfortunate,they will
learn the truth too late!

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


Um.

If all the water on the planet; all the ice in the poles, all the humidity in the air, the clouds, ALL the water on the entire planet were melted and in the ocean, sea levels would rise ...

about 300 ft.

Just 300 ft.

It could rain 400 Million years straight, but, the way the water cycle works, water somewhere would be evaporating to condense into clouds, then back to rain, to groundwater, evaporate again, and round and round again.

Here's an interactive map of what the Earth would look like if ALL the water was liquid:
If All The Ice Melted - National Geographic Interactive Map

Further, some folks may be familiar with the following illustration of what all the water on the planet gathered in once place would look like:


There simply is not enough water on the planet, in ice, in the air, underground, or even locked up in plants and animals (since we all have water) combined in total to raise sea levels more than 300ft above what they are now.

There's definitely not enough water to land a boat several thousands of feet above sea level.

Not only was there not a worldwide flood, but a worldwide flood is impossible.


... unless the water is magic.

If someone wants to throw magic water all over the place that just magically appears and disappears, then, well, I got nutt'n.

If magic, then, there's no point in debating anything on any point of debate because, hey, magic can do anything.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

I believe it is possible God lent some kind of supernatural protection to the plants

If god is supposedly all powerful and can magically protect the plants it begs the question of why did it feel the need to drown everything else and make a family work their entire lives on a building a stupid boat that by design would need magical powers to stay afloat. Oh and it would have needed to magically preserve the fish as well because anyone with a fish tank will tell you salt water, and fresh water fish do not mix well nor do they adjust to temperatures easily.

If it is going to use magic anyway shouldn't it have just got rid of the bad people and left all the innocent wildlife alone?

How then can Science say that we spawned from a single celled-organism in which genes randomly mutated to create a new species?

We are not sure that is how it happened. Abiogenesis is still a hypothesis for the origins of life.

reply to post by AliceBleachWhite


Genesis 1
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

This is what the world was like in its perfect state. The theory is that when God Flooded the Earth he caused the waters above the firmament(water vapor canopy theory) to crash down upon the Earth. On top of that, the crash of the canopy could have drastically changed the conditions of the atmosphere. Where did the water Go?

8 God had not forgotten Noah and all the animals with him in the boat; he caused a wind to blow, and the water started going down. 2 The outlets of the water beneath the earth and the floodgates of the sky were closed. The rain stopped, 3 and the water gradually went down for 150 days

Once again maybe not the answer your looking for, but I believe in an omnipotent God so it is not hard for me to believe that He can do that.

Genesis 8:22
As long as the world exists, there will be a time for planting and a time for harvest. There will always be cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night.”

I believe this indicates that God changed the way the World normally works, and this was His promise not to do it that specific way ever again.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb


Please.

Save us the proselytizing.
Save us scripture quotation.
Save us the defensive rationalizations.

Be honest and just say ... it's MAGIC.

No one can argue against that.

Universe: MAGIC!
Earth and all life on it: MAGIC!
Noah's Flood: MAGIC!

At the source of all of it, it's ... yep; MAGIC!

There's nothing to debate.
god = MAGIC!

Done.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

The theory is that when God Flooded the Earth he caused the waters above the firmament(water vapor canopy theory) to crash down upon the Earth. On top of that, the crash of the canopy could have drastically changed the conditions of the atmosphere.

To have that much water vapor in the atmosphere to flood the world up to mountaintops would mean the pressure on the ground (before the "crash") would be so immensely great that humans and animals wouldn't even be able to live, trees and plants could not grow vertically at all, etc.

Oh Alice...........why do you hate Jesus so much?
You must be devil spawn?
The entire human race boils down to ONE woman......Our first EVE born in South Africa 250.000 yrs ago
Mitochondrial DNA says so.....

AliceBleachWhite
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

Please.

Save us the proselytizing.
Save us scripture quotation.
Save us the defensive rationalizations.

Be honest and just say ... it's MAGIC.

No one can argue against that.

Universe: MAGIC!
Earth and all life on it: MAGIC!
Noah's Flood: MAGIC!

At the source of all of it, it's ... yep; MAGIC!

There's nothing to debate.
god = MAGIC!

Done.

Universe: God spoke the universe into Existence. I believe when He did this, it caused what we call the Big Bang.

The Elegant Universe homepage According to string theory, absolutely everything in the universe—all of the particles that make up matter and forces—is comprised of tiny vibrating fundamental strings. Moreover, every one of these strings is identical. The only difference between one string and another, whether it's a heavy particle that is part of an atom or a massless particle that carries light, is its resonant pattern, or how it vibrates. All objects, not just fundamental strings, have resonant patterns associated with them. Pluck the string of a violin and you hear mainly one tone. This is the string's fundamental resonant pattern, or frequency. And the instrument's resonance doesn't stop there. The body of the violin has resonant frequencies, which work to amplify the sound created by the vibrating string. There's resonance in objects that aren't musical, too. Your desk has resonant frequencies, and so does a flagpole, and so does the Earth.

Source

All of the Oldest Religions have the source of the universe as Sound. Judaism/Christianity-God spoke, Hinduism-OM sound that is the source of all manifestation, Egyptians-Sang the Universe into existence. It is not by coincidence that we find a resonant frequencies within everything that exist.

stirling
Oh Alice...........why do you hate Jesus so much?
You must be devil spawn?
The entire human race boils down to ONE woman......Our first EVE born in South Africa 250.000 yrs ago
Mitochondrial DNA says so.....

edit on 25-2-2014 by stirling because: (no reason given)

It's just that addition was so atrocious that they mistook 250,000 years for 6,000.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

Having read "The Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene, he doesn't mention god once, or religion. Just science and physics.

Chamberf=6
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

The theory is that when God Flooded the Earth he caused the waters above the firmament(water vapor canopy theory) to crash down upon the Earth. On top of that, the crash of the canopy could have drastically changed the conditions of the atmosphere.

To have that much water vapor in the atmosphere to flood the world up to mountaintops would mean the pressure on the ground (before the "crash") would be so immensely great that humans and animals wouldn't even be able to live, trees and plants could not grow vertically at all, etc.

edit on 2/25/2014 by Chamberf=6 because: (no reason given)

You are again assuming that the atmosphere of the Earth worked exactly as we know it today. The Earth was closer to its perfect state. So I believe it probably functioned differently back then.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

You are again assuming that the atmosphere of the Earth worked exactly as we know it today. The Earth was in a perfect state, and the atmosphere we have today is far from perfect. So I would assume that it functioned quite differently back then.

So you're saying basic laws of physics were different in Noah's time and before?

Also if Earth was so perfect, why destroy it?

Chamberf=6
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

Having read "The Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene, he doesn't mention god once, or religion. Just science and physics.

Does that change anything about the point I made?

People of faith should always remember this...Debating with
atheists is like playing chess with pigeons.Also remember...
Not to cast your pearls among swine!

Chamberf=6
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

You are again assuming that the atmosphere of the Earth worked exactly as we know it today. The Earth was in a perfect state, and the atmosphere we have today is far from perfect. So I would assume that it functioned quite differently back then.

So you're saying basic laws of physics were different in Noah's time and before?

Also if Earth was so perfect, why destroy it?

edit on 2/25/2014 by Chamberf=6 because: (no reason given)

I am not saying I know anything. I should have said Earth was much closer to its perfect state not perfect, because the fall of man had already occurred. However, I also do not actually know what the waters above the sky were, but only that the Bible claims that a source of water used to exist above the atmosphere. This is where I believe the Flood water came from. I cannot tell you the details, because they simply are not given to us.

Edit:great picture btw lol.

ServantOfTheLamb

Chamberf=6
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

Having read "The Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene, he doesn't mention god once, or religion. Just science and physics.

Does that change anything about the point I made?

It separates it from religion for one thing.

Chamberf=6

ServantOfTheLamb

Chamberf=6
reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

 

Having read "The Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene, he doesn't mention god once, or religion. Just science and physics.

Does that change anything about the point I made?

It separates it from religion for one thing.

How so? Does that research not say that theoretically all things have a resonant frequency? Do some of the oldest religions not have the primordial source of the universe as sound? Just because the answers were found apart from religion does not mean they cannot provide evidence for religious claims.

reply to post by mamabeth

Debating with atheists is like playing chess with pigeons.

Doubts and questioning things others blindly believe makes one a "bird brain"?

I see no brilliant chess masters here, nor pigeons.

reply to post by ServantOfTheLamb

Just because the answers were found apart from religion does not mean they cannot provide evidence for religious claims.

Where is the evidence, though? I see a reaching speculation that "god did it".

In a vacuum (the void before "god" spoke), there would be no sound, vibrations-- okay, sound-- no.

The singularity before the big bang (cue god speaking) would have had neither.