People who are pro death penalty are much more likely to commit homicide than those who aren't

I don't agree. I think your opinion is too overly simplistic.

I think there are some circumstances, not where murder is justified, but where it's understandable in the sense that it is a crime of passion. The person who murders clearly murders but did so in a flash of strong, uncontrollable emotion that is unlikely to be repeated without extreme provocation. Do I think such people deserve a death penalty? No, I think that is unjust.

However, what about the person who murders in cold blood with planning and forethought? The husband who deliberately and slowly poisons his wife and has killed one or two previous wives? What is a just punishment for him? Does he respect anyone else's life enough to keep his own? What is a just punishment for him?

Sometimes, it's not just about keeping your own moral high ground, but it's about what's a just punishment fitting the crime.

Death is good to those that fear it, as long as it's someone else dying, so they can be thankful that it's not them, not this time. Why fear it? Master it. You can't' control it, you must master it.

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow

liberals are more likely to be and rank much higher generally on the sociopath scale.

Wut???

Do you have some scientific research that upholds this view?

Because, with all due respect, I'd say that is ridiculous.
"Liberals" are more likely to want equality and justice......to want to end the wars......
to want everyone all over the world to be fed, housed, clothed, educated, and have access to clean water.

wut?????

GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by bates

 

You are wrong.

You are way off. Liberals are more likely to place higher on the sociopath scale (more points on the hare checklist). The desire for people to be put to death is usually out of an extreme emotion rather than disregard for life. The decision to oppose death penalty is more analytical/less emotional. Also a sociopath/psychopath carefully createsa persona. So more likely to be opposed to death penalty and more likely to be opposed to guns (despite being equally likely to own a gun while being opposes to them). The fact they (psychopaths) may face such a punishment may factor in in some rare cases, causing further opposition.

This was one of my areas of study. Your opinion doesn't really work because it doesn't accurately take into account the sociopaths personality.

Since you have studied this area, specifically that 'liberal' are more likely to place highter on the sociopath scale, you will easily be able to provide sources for your facts and conclusions.

reply to post by wildtimes


What you say is not true. You need a better grasp of both what it is to be a liberal and what it is to be a sociopath.

The majority of liberals/democrats (I guess even though dems aren't even close to liberal) are idealists. They are predictable and thus easy to imitate.

The sociopath doesn't care about war, or any of that, so technically they aren't really n or conservative, but at face value - if only their words were true, most would be liberal.

Again, because they are idealists, most of what they fight for is the opposite of reality - true? Meanwhile conservatives think on more immediate terms. Less worls view and more local. Generally more emotional.

It is much easier for a sociopath to relate you with a fantasy idea (no war! no death penalty) than it is for them to relate to you via emotions.

Think about it. Its exactly what Hitler did. Is it not?

Its very funny to me thay people want to take the bad people and put them in the other camp. It doesn't reflect on you personally unless you arw a sociopath, but it is true. The only thing that might be said negatively is that liberals are more susceptible to sociopathy in politics.

You guys seem to think that sociopaths are frothing at the mouth and want war and death. In reality they are putting their best face forward.

Do you think you are more likely to find Ted Bundy dressed like a hippie picking up a young girl at a college by saying " no more death row, no more war!" OR hanging with a bunch of old or emotional people that are pro death penalty and seriius outside an execution?

Manson? Based solely on his lifestyle what would you predict his politics were?

The mistake you guys are making is that you think sociopaths care about these issues. They dont give a damn. They care about what face they wear and how far that will get them. Liberals become the obvious choice because its much simpler to understand without emotion involved (the definition of s ociopathy is lack of empathy and relating to emotion).

reply to post by FyreByrd


I've explained why. In depth. Ive never seen more liberals get their panties ok nto a bunch lol.

Dont worry the sociopaths aren't REALLY liberal nor are they REALLY conservative. They most likely dont care and will play whichever side benefits them the most.

The reason im saying they would most likely publicly align themselves with liberals is obvious. Liberals ideology makes them easier to manipulate. I could make an accountand it would be much easier to convince you im liberal than it would to convince you im conservative because conservative issues are usually smaller/closer to the heart while liberals focus on world issues.

Btw I think its funny that people here are saying conservatives are pro war.
Liberals are pro war, conservatives generally are not. You guys have your minds confused. Look up the definitions of both words.

To the two above posters.. every bit of scientific research ever done on sociopaths supports what im saying.

For the record I dont really support the death penalty, and am pro choice (though I consider it a bit selfish and oppose partial birth) but i'm anti war, pro 2nd amendment, believe all drug use should be decriminalized.

I consider myself a libertarian and conservative.

Despite my being pro choice, which is generally considered a liberal position. It could be argued, even against me, that many more people are killed (way more) via abortion than death penalty. So if you think that plays into s ociopathy (it doesn't) then youd have a better case against liberals.

The reality is though, that a sociopaths political inclination has nothing to do with their opinion or "feelings" on any subject (not abortion war or capital punishment) and has everything to do with which group would be easiest to blend into. That would almost undoubtedly be liberals.

I assure you I am correct, but take some time and think about it. Sorry if you take it personally. You shouldnt.

Also to destroy your concept using an entirely different approach. African Americans are generally Democrats. Democrats are generally anti death penalty (at least when compared to GOP).
African Americans make up about 9 percent of the population. Yet 50+ percent of the US annual homicides were committed by young African American men. That means a demographic that makes up about 1 - 1.5 percent of the population (younger african american men) commit nearly half of the countries homicides.

As we said earlier African Americans are generally Democrats, even more YOUNG African Americans are Democrats. Democrats are more inclined to oppose the death penalty.

So using that logic people who OPPOSE the death penalty are almost UNDENIABLY more inclined to commit homicide AND more inclined to show sociopathic tendencies.

I just pretty much proved both my arguments.

These are just facts, I have no issues with any race.
if you want to do the leg work yourself:
us demographics

FBI homicide stats

One last thing.
Where do the most violent crimes and highest crime rates in America occur?

You guessed it, the most LIBERAL cities.
Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, D.C, etc.

So there I have crushed the premise of this thread not once, not twice, but thrice.

People who are pro death penalty are much more likely to commit homicide than those who aren't

I must be the exception to that rule because I feel that I could commit homicide under certain conditions, yet would not wish for the state to do so on my behalf.

It's much worse when the state does it, because it's clinical and cold-blooded.

Apart from all that, it doesn't do what its proponents fondly imagine it does, which is to deter violent crime.

If it did, USA and Russia would be crime-free paradises.

The title of this thread is nothing more than the personal conviction of the OP and has no data to back it up (but at least he is, like me, against capital punishment, and I believe it's the civilised way to go).

bates
How do you feel about the above statement?

In my opinion people who are pro death penalty have a much lower regard for human life and also place much much higher on the sociopath scale than the people who don't believe in capital punishment.

These two factors combined meant that the average pro death penalty supporter was much more likely to commit a serious violent crime, including murder, than the people who are not supporters of it.

I firmly believe that if we can turn people's minds away from violent retribution it will also lower the murder and serious violent crime rate.

The only problem is, those who are pro death penalty almost never listen to the ideas of others and would almost certainly never let themselves be educated as to why it is wrong.

Basically if you remove the violence from the top, it trickles down and people end up losing certain sociopathic traits and violent tendencies.

The death penalty actually does the opposite to what it's supporters claim.

edit on 26-1-2014 by bates because: (no reason given)

Nothing like a good deterrent; does the threat of meeting a violent end deter these criminals?
There is something dysesthesia about the internal workings of an advocate promoting the death penalty. IMOHO

Dysesthesia can generally be described as a class of neurological disorders.

more

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow


The industry most dominated by sociopaths is banking.

Banking is probably as furthest from liberal ideals as you can get.

Not sure where you're getting this liberals are more likely to be sociopaths stuff from sir.

schuyler

bates
How do you feel about the above statement?

I feel it needs to be proved. Where is your data? How many people commit homicide in the first place? If your statement is not backed by data, it is worthless.

This is just my opinion.

Thought it would make a decent debate, something different rather than the usual death penalty stuff.

zeroBelief
Strictly out of curiosity.....your parents...what was their viewpoint on the matter? Were you spanked as a child? What were your punishments like?


I'm not trying to bait you into anything, but rather, I am curious as to your viewpoint origins are on this matter.

So, I'd really appreciate it if you wouldn't mind answering this question

I would presume my parents are both anti death penalty, although it has never really been a topic of conversation.

I was never spanked.

Don't think I was ever really punished.

My mother once made me spend all my birthday money on books.

bates

zeroBelief
Strictly out of curiosity.....your parents...what was their viewpoint on the matter? Were you spanked as a child? What were your punishments like?


I'm not trying to bait you into anything, but rather, I am curious as to your viewpoint origins are on this matter.

So, I'd really appreciate it if you wouldn't mind answering this question

I would presume my parents are both anti death penalty, although it has never really been a topic of conversation.

I was never spanked.

Don't think I was ever really punished.

My mother once made me spend all my birthday money on books.

Well, thank you for your plainly honest answer. It shows you trusted me in the reasoning behind my question, and I appreciate that

In my family, there was an ultimate authoritarian, and he was our Father. We were well familiar with corporeal punishment, spankings, in our family. However, we also learned a sense of transparency and self knowledge. What I mean by this, is that we always knew where the "line" was. We always knew when we were coming close to it. And, as a result, if we crossed that line, we knew full well who's fault the resulting punishment was.

My parents were believers in the idea of an "ultimate penalty" to pay, should you do something so heinous as to do something like taking another persons life, or even as I've come to see it, as rape. Yes, I believe that rape is that violent of a crime, so violent it is worse than death in that it leaves you living with the knowledge of how you were so grossly violated.

I too, believe in the death penalty.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you are wrong.

You are not wrong.

Your opinions, are yours and yours alone. Much as my ideas about the death penalty are my opinions. And I am allowed them just as much as you are.

The only other idea that I think I can bring to this discussion between you and I, that wouldn't be beating a dead horse (pardon the horrible pun), is that to me the idea of someone committing a crime against society of such magnitude, and then forcing that person to be a burden on society for the rest of their natural life, well, is a travesty IMHO.

I think, and I may be off, but the last figures I heard on this was that it costs the general public $40K a year to incarcerate a maximum security inmate. For every year that *they* continue to live.

And yet in the vast majority of cases, they are there for snuffing out another's life.


So I kill you, and then I get my life and healthcare paid for for the REST of my life? When if I live another 80 years? That's $3.2 million dollars the general public now has to shoulder because of my callous / heinous / horrible actions ?

We will simply have to agree to disagree on this. And I'm ok with that. I'm not about to say you're bad, or wrong, but I couldn't disagree with you more.

And that's ok.

That's why we vote on these things.

loveguy


Nothing like a good deterrent; does the threat of meeting a violent end deter these criminals?
There is something dysesthesia about the internal workings of an advocate promoting the death penalty. IMOHO

Dysesthesia can generally be described as a class of neurological disorders.

more

edit on (1/27/1414 by loveguy because: (no reason given)

First of all, thank you for introducing me to a term I was previously unaware of.

Second, did you actually read the link you presented to us ? It most certainly doesn't support your idea that someone who can be diagnosed as having Dysesthesia is somehow numbing them to the idea of a person dying due to the death penalty.

Dysesthesia

Dysesthesia (dysaesthesia) comes from the Greek word "dys", meaning "not-normal" and "aesthesis", which means "sensation" (abnormal sensation).[1] It is defined as an unpleasant, abnormal sense of touch. It often presents as pain[2] but may also present as an inappropriate, but not discomforting, sensation. It is caused by lesions of the nervous system, peripheral or central, and it involves sensations, whether spontaneous or evoked, such as burning, wetness, itching, electric shock, and pins and needles.[2] Dysesthesia can include sensations in any bodily tissue, including most often the mouth, scalp, skin, or legs.[2] It is sometimes described as feeling like acid under the skin. Burning dysesthesia might accurately reflect an acidotic state in the synapses and perineural space. Some ion channels will open to a low pH, and the acid sensing ion channel has been shown to open at body temperature, in a model of nerve injury pain. Inappropriate, spontaneous firing in pain receptors has also been implicated as a cause of dysesthesia. Patients suffering from dysesthesia can become incapacitated with pain, despite no apparent damage to the skin or other tissue. Patients suffering from dysesthesia also often suffer from psychological disorders.

And then, to go even further, the wikipedia article says....

Types of dysesthesia

Dysesthesia can generally be described as a class of neurological disorders. It can be further classified depending on where it manifests in the body, and by the type of sensation that it provokes. Cutaneous dysesthesia is characterized by discomfort or pain from touch to the skin by normal stimuli, including clothing. The unpleasantness can range from a mild tingling to blunt, incapacitating pain. Scalp dysesthesia is characterized by pain or burning sensations on or under the surface of the cranial skin. Scalp dysesthesia may also present as excessive itching of the scalp. Occlusal dysesthesia, or "phantom bite," is characterized by the feeling of a biting sensation in the absence of any apparent damage to oral or maxillofacial structures or tissue, usually in patients that have undergone recent dental surgery.[3]

The idea that you are suggesting as being pro death penalty being indicative of a neurological disorder hardly holds water.

I'm not trying to make this a personal attack against you. Rather, that where your idea has the sound of authority to it, it plainly does not work the way you are suggesting.

GogoVicMorrow
To the two above posters.. every bit of scientific research ever done on sociopaths supports what im saying.

Well then it should be easy to cite some.

"every bit of ....." Hyperbole, much?

reply to post by zeroBelief

The idea that you are suggesting as being pro death penalty being indicative of a neurological disorder hardly holds water.

I'm not trying to make this a personal attack against you. Rather, that where your idea has the sound of authority to it, it plainly does not work the way you are suggesting.

It happens quite alot, I'm wired a little differently I guess.


Have a look at the second link;

more

Perlin notes that sanism affects the theory and practice of law in largely invisible and socially acceptable ways, based mainly on "stereotype, myth, superstition, and deindividualization." He believes that its "corrosive effects have warped involuntary civil commitment law, institutional law, tort law, and all aspects of the criminal process (pretrial, trial and sentencing)."[28] According to Perlin, judges are far from immune, tending to reflect sanist thinking that has deep roots within our culture. This results in judicial decisions based on stereotypes in all areas of civil and criminal law, expressed in biased language and showing contempt for mental health professionals. Moreover, courts are often impatient and attribute mental problems to "weak character or poor resolve".[27]