Ideas seperate from yourself

I just came into some questions after a comment in another thread so i figured id start a thread about the thoughts i was having about the comments.

So i just described to someone how i view people and ideas as seperate entities and that started me down a rabbit hole.

Heres some questions, if we are not our ideas, then what are ideas and where do they come from, and how do we have them?

I almost want to say that ideas are more biomechanical and serve as a byproduct of an algorithm processing in our brains from the geometry of experience. Then us, as the entity can choose to observe and experience these ideas.

Does it serve a purpose to have this perspective? What about using that as a practice during meditation to create distance between your ego and yourself and as a way to isolate real self more from the identity self?

Thoughts....

imagination proceeds you.
ideas are not fact until manufactured.
and knowledge is not a luxury, it is work.

also, imagination is mostly guided by experience and genetics.

reply to post by onequestion


It is a DEEP rabbit hole. To see it, realize many of the best mathematicians in history believed that ideas like a circle have an independent existence, separate from this world. Read about this idea, called 'mathematical realism' here:
en.wikipedia.org...
Realize that we're talking about Gödel, we're talking about the guys that took long strolls with Einstein discussing their ideas. Folks who shaped the current reality at deep levels, who's philosophy was based in what you're talking about right now. This is a deep topic indeed.

edit: And I can't leave it just at that.

To me behind mathematical realism is an implicit idea, that we have the ability to create with our thoughts. If we limit what's real to what we can see through empirical methods and mathematical construction, we curtain our ability to create through imagination, to make our dreams real, which is an undeniable aspect of reality.

reply to post by tridentblue


Is this just a 'Human' reality?

I know how that may sound but stay with me on this one. Do other living creatures have ideas? If so, do they have consciousness? We humans seem to have the ability to leap beyond our own personal experiences and be creative mostly when the need arises but also sometimes simply for fun.

Thinking outside the box has more often than not carried the day.

onequestion
I just came into some questions after a comment in another thread so i figured id start a thread about the thoughts i was having about the comments.

So i just described to someone how i view people and ideas as seperate entities and that started me down a rabbit hole.

Heres some questions, if we are not our ideas, then what are ideas and where do they come from, and how do we have them?

I almost want to say that ideas are more biomechanical and serve as a byproduct of an algorithm processing in our brains from the geometry of experience. Then us, as the entity can choose to observe and experience these ideas.

Does it serve a purpose to have this perspective? What about using that as a practice during meditation to create distance between your ego and yourself and as a way to isolate real self more from the identity self?

Thoughts....

Ideas and words arise. The nothing they arise in can get identified with the words or labels - the nothing when labelled becomes a thing (not really though) - it is just a case of misidentification. The thing it thinks it is then lives in an imaginary world of 'other things'.
This is what is the suffering of the human condition - things come and go and it is then believed that you will end (that you came and will go).
Really there are no things at all - there is just the nothing which appears to be something.

All concepts (ideas, words, labels, names) arise out of the non conceptual.
The non conceptual is the source of all.

This is the first chapter of the Tao Te Ching.

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.

acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu...

reply to post by onequestion


The military now has technology to beam thoughts into people's heads and command them to do wicked things.

Remember the military guy at the military base that thought he heard voices and then went on a killing spree.

Analyze every thought you think. If it goes against your general grain of thought then its not your thought.

Jarring
imagination proceeds you.
ideas are not fact until manufactured.
and knowledge is not a luxury, it is work.

also, imagination is mostly guided by experience and genetics.

edit on 01/24/14 by Jarring because: (no reason given)

Wait, one question, deep rabbit hole awareness…DON"T FALL IN OR TOO FAR ANYONE. ALERT< ALERT….LOL

But, as for Jarring, here….quite jarring me this late at night, really…..
ummmm, imagination is mostly guided by what??? GENETICS??????

Whoaaa, there. Genetics. REALLY. Did you mean that, sincerely? I neither have enough vodka to read this, much less disseminate nor discuss it. I find that statement horrifying, truly. Sorry.

Oh, my . Oh my. Oh…..my…..
This is a late night conundrum for sure. Not sure I'm up to this. Genetic imagination. Hmmmm. This has now become my favorite emoticon. Close to a bomb as I can find in emoticonlanguage.

Try to imagine just for a second that there are no words at all.

If there was no words or ideas or concepts appearing then it would be seen that there is only ever this that is here now.
Very young children have no idea about time - they have learned to imagine a timeline - all they know is what is actually happening.

All words divide that which is whole. A very young child (or animal) is whole and complete because it does not have the ability to separate itself from what is happening - it has no idea of other than what is.
Having ideas of other is fine but when one believes those ideas then one is 'worshipping other' and one will suffer from the illusion as one has been deluded by denying what is.

Rapha
reply to post by onequestion

 

The military now has technology to beam thoughts into people's heads and command them to do wicked things.

Remember the military guy at the military base that thought he heard voices and then went on a killing spree.

Analyze every thought you think. If it goes against your general grain of thought then its not your thought.

Great point, Rapha. This has been around for a very long time, in fact. Wish more people vetted their information, within and without, with this in mind. This is the world we live in, has been for a while, and everything should be considered through that prism, as this is the reality, to make what is real an eternal question….
T50

Itisnowagain


This is what is the suffering of the human condition - things come and go and it is then believed that you will end (that you came and will go).
Really there are no things at all - there is just the nothing which appears to be something.

Human condition/human potential. That is a lot of labels right there for it to be nothing
If you work on your labeling system people will be able to relate to you a lot easier. Right now all roads lead back to the same place if you know what I mean.

tetra50

Jarring
imagination proceeds you.
ideas are not fact until manufactured.
and knowledge is not a luxury, it is work.

also, imagination is mostly guided by experience and genetics.

edit on 01/24/14 by Jarring because: (no reason given)

Wait, one question, deep rabbit hole awareness…DON"T FALL IN OR TOO FAR ANYONE. ALERT< ALERT….LOL

But, as for Jarring, here….quite jarring me this late at night, really…..
ummmm, imagination is mostly guided by what??? GENETICS??????

Whoaaa, there. Genetics. REALLY. Did you mean that, sincerely? I neither have enough vodka to read this, much less disseminate nor discuss it. I find that statement horrifying, truly. Sorry.

Oh, my . Oh my. Oh…..my…..
This is a late night conundrum for sure. Not sure I'm up to this. Genetic imagination. Hmmmm.

This has now become my favorite emoticon. Close to a bomb as I can find in emoticonlanguage.

edit on 26-1-2014 by tetra50 because: (no reason given)

haha, i guess i could have used a different word. i don't normally use the word personally, i was just hoping you'd get my point. might as well use the term circumstance in place of genetics.

TheDualityExperience

Itisnowagain


This is what is the suffering of the human condition - things come and go and it is then believed that you will end (that you came and will go).
Really there are no things at all - there is just the nothing which appears to be something.

Human condition/human potential.

That is the problem right there - the belief in 'human potential'. Thinking that in 'time' one will 'become' more when one already is. Seeking to become is the not seeing that one is 'being' already.

This right here and right now is being all there is - it is not a thing.

reply to post by onequestion


Think about it like this...

Imagine our existence in an infinite multiverse situation.

As we go through life we make contact with the universe through our five senses. These interactions and observations create memories.

Most people think the memories are stored in the brain. This is not correct.

Think of the brain as a sort of receiver that not only perceives things through the 5 senses in real time, but also has the ability to revisit those experiences later. Instead of storing the details in the brain, we create a link to the time and place and event that we experienced previously.

We cannot remember everything in perfect detail right of the bat, but if we give it time and concentrate, our memories slowly reconnect to the event (sometimes you can feel like you are back in very emotional events because the connection is still so strong) and the memories slowly start coming back.

We are all part of a huge network and our brain accesses the network of your timeline and universe in the multiverse. So the network stores the memory and we just access it.

Now for ideas.

Because this network exists of the multiverse of infinite possibilities, we our brains in a similar way to create ideas. We use the connections that we have already established, to build new connections, and the ideas are born.

Since our mind can access all possible universes and situations, we build new connections through our current memories. This is why we don't USUALLY make huge jumps in creative thinking, because we are building piece by piece from what we already experienced.

Tough to explain but I hope that helps.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


Yeah but you do not want to delude yourself into thinking you can catch you tail.
This is all there is but what this is can be so much more, do you see that?

TheDualityExperience
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Yeah but you do not want to delude yourself into thinking you can catch you tail.
This is all there is but what this is can be so much more, do you see that?

What more is there than what is?

TheDualityExperience
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Yeah but you do not want to delude yourself into thinking you can catch you tail.

There is nothing but what there is - 'who' could be deluded?

Itisnowagain

TheDualityExperience
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Yeah but you do not want to delude yourself into thinking you can catch you tail.
This is all there is but what this is can be so much more, do you see that?

What more is there than what is?

*flame thrower set to high*
lol just kidding.
How about we start with radiation problem plaguing the planet.
Then maybe we can make sure everyone has shelter food and water.
Have you not observed any of this yourself?

TheDualityExperience

Itisnowagain

TheDualityExperience
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Yeah but you do not want to delude yourself into thinking you can catch you tail.
This is all there is but what this is can be so much more, do you see that?

What more is there than what is?

*flame thrower set to high*
lol just kidding.
How about we start with radiation problem plaguing the planet.
Then maybe we can make sure everyone has shelter food and water.
Have you not observed any of this yourself?

What can you do?
The problem - the suffering that you feel - is that you imagine that you can control what appears as the movie. Can you control the apparent world?
You worry about the world because you think you are dependant on the world but you are not really. When you find out what you are you will not worry about the world.

One must seek the sufferer to end all the suffering.

I tend to see as you do- "I" am like this observer of the ideas and experiences, actually void of anything in essence.

Yet, for other "I"s (other points of observation, others...) they can only distinguish "me" through my ideas. It is the ideas which make us separate.

I guess I would word it thus-
looking out, I am not my ideas, thoughts or perspectives,
and on that level, I am aware no one else is either.


But I am also aware, on another level, that from their point of view, they may see my ideas as my self,
or they might see a physical form as my self, or they might see my possessions as my self.


What is born of this is the famous "stage" we play on, in which our thoughts, forms and objects battle or create, attract and repulse, agree and disagree.... but none of it actually touches our ultimate being.


Because others depend upon these elements to distinguish me, I do think that some stability and integrity is needed, for their sake. That I not be completely changeable from one minute to the next, that I project a fairly stable idea of who I am, and allow only progressive changes that they can follow. If others can gain a sense of who you are, and feel able to predict or anticipate your responses, it gives them a better sense of security and power over their own experience, that encourages effective relations and exchanges.