Dr. Jacques Vallee ~ The Control System

Because GUT, read it again. He's been hooked by the same insidious seduction I described to you as having felled the legendary Brother Blue all those years ago.

originally posted by: RedCairo
Because GUT, read it again. He's been hooked by the same insidious seduction I described to you as having felled the legendary Brother Blue all those years ago.

I'd sure like to know what "insidious seduction" you're talking about. That right there sounds a lot like peddling and pandering, if I've ever heard it.

a reply to: RedCairo

Poor Brother Blue. That cat was SHARP! I'm rather envious you got to know him before the penguin got him!

a reply to: Springer


Look up from the keyboard to gaze at the screen or the riotous running river of the ruinous red moon will all time melancholic halcyon daze willow self consume and the standardized dust throwing out plagiarized rhymes will struggle like whores must keep up with the times and then nothing can be held together and then something only judgement scales heart and feather but my love oh my life and a lust not worth much three seasons for dying one season to touch so i look to the keyboard but i'm not seeing crutch just basis in blackness numbers letters and such.

originally posted by: Springer




And to that I would say, "Thanks for all the fish!"

Springer...

All the years and all that time
Spent poring over details fine
Some move on and would sooner forget
Trying to catch phantoms in a butterfly net



Xeph and his sister Zendora tell me planet Zorg is wonderful place to visit this time of year!

a reply to: The GUT

Here is a site with info on the Bennewitz case, i am sure you know all of the info anyway, just thought i would throw in the link.

www.greatdreams.com...

a reply to: The GUT

I never meant to imply that I have anything "aced", nor was I writing about myself in particular.

originally posted by: strelok72
All the years and all that time
Spent poring over details fine
Some move on and would sooner forget
Trying to catch phantoms in a butterfly net



Xeph and his sister Zendora tell me planet Zorg is wonderful place to visit this time of year!

Did you write that? That's awesomely crafted. Seems self-defeatist to me, though, if I understand it correctly. I sincerely pity those who are afraid to research and come to some personal conclusions about things that speak to their soul.

Because of my interest and love for ufology, my disgust at factions that would use their fellow citizens as guinea pigs for unethical experimentation, and my sincere outrage and empathy for such victims; I choose to battle the darkness.

Springer calls it all opinion and wrong, yet he offers no research just rhetoric. Rhetoric is okay, but without meat it's a calorie-free meal.

Okay, Strelok, here's mine. Not as pretty, but not self-limiting:

All that fear, for all that time
Ever timid, afraid to find
No resolve, no inner trust
Just question marks, and then:
The dust

So, sit there at your paper keyboard
Tell yourself again you can't
Skulk away from slaying dragons
Leaving the fight to those who can

Springer: Does Jacques Vallee qualify as one of the researchers of the worn out shoe? If so, I suggest we review some of his statements regarding the IC's shenanigans in the ufological community. I would also note that my question as regards Paul Bennewitz has been left hanging: Who were the good guys there?

Actually, I'd love a public debate on this and another chance to lay it all out consecutively rather than piecemeal as I've done in the past. (Stoopid me! Won't make that mistake again.)

originally posted by: Springer
Here's a clue for the lot of you who think you've got this phenomena all figured out from your keyboards...

Until you get OUT INTO THE WORLD , wearing out a passport(or two), dozens of recording devices, and a couple pairs of good shoes, you'll never really know what's happening...

It just won't be settled by Google, ATS, or anywhere else online.

While it certainly makes sense to report what you actually discover, the interviews you actually have with the people who are involved, and any bit of evidence you may come across, until you get to know those who you write about on a human to human level it's all LITERATURE.

And to that I would say, "Thanks for all the fish!"

Springer...

Good post. Some posted conjectures by members are useful and/or at least interesting. Others are just serial blurb for the sake of whatever personal needs.

You compliment the blurb/waffle/generality/daily posts/etc. as "Literature"!

Even then you get criticized for complimenting so!

I disagree there are lots of good posts by the non-real world investigators as you call them. Anyway I enjoy them. Apart from intelligent conjectures posted in various threads and or interesting links, by most members, the minority of daily serial mere blurb posts repeating generalities might console the blurber and be many things but literature, they are not.

a reply to: The GUT

Where have I ever said everything you've written was "all opinion and wrong?"

I'd invite you to learn how to stop with the absolutes and all encompassing declarations or you won't have any credibility and less attention from anyone who's attention is worth getting.

sigh...

a reply to: Springer

I see what you mean, and I should be more careful. Funny, though, I felt the same about this statement:

Here's a clue for the lot of you who think you've got this phenomena all figured out from your keyboards...

Until you get OUT INTO THE WORLD , wearing out a passport(or two), dozens of recording devices, and a couple pairs of good shoes, you'll never really know what's happening…

While I understand what you're saying, the "absolutes" inherent are faulty. I seldom proffer serious theories without backing them up with a plethora of evidentiary items that include official documents, research from journalists and other researchers, publicly available statements from the parties themselves when available to include contradictory statements on record, cases of precedent, etc.

Many criminal or corruption cases and/or mysteries have been cracked open using only ONE of the above. Common sense, as we all know, is helpful too, though admittedly a little harder to define. For example, I don't have to interview Kit Green to know that he was involved with the crew disseminating the Serpo material. What that means might be more complicated, but it's useable information when researching, and has value when formulating one's own conclusions.

There's always a limit on what can be discerned whether in the field or behind a desk, but there's few real bars to methods of discovery. Never know what might turn up. Institutions--and the people that make them up--are not infallible.

Me personally; I follow my heart, instinct, experience, and inquisitive nature.

7 Times the Internet Teamed Up to Solve a Mystery

5 Mind-Blowing Ways People Solved Unsolvable Cold Cases

“The Skeleton Crew”: How a motley band of amateurs solves cold cases online

Yeah, I googled those. They sound like they have the potential to be fun, and maybe even informative, reads.

a reply to: The GUT

I think I now see the flaw in your thinking regarding these last posts.... You thought I was talking to you.

I'll let that rest where it lays, it's not worth the vitriol or potentially bruised egos that could come from it.

a reply to: Springer

I anticipated that response, and I'd offer that it was pretty hard to figure out what your real point was. It must have been aimed in particular directions and yet it was rather opaque and random. I did figure I was somewhat included because it's a rehash of some things you did direct at me in the Men in Black(ops) thread.

As broad & general as it was (and overlooking the flaw in reasoning) it sounds like something that should be posted as a thread for the entire community to see rather than out of the blue here.

I'm feisty, but my ego's a big boy, and rather than cry, I welcome engagement. I actually feel comfortable & rather pleased with the exchange. As always and anytime, Springer.

a reply to: The GUT

Nicely put...

Maybe this will help clarify things a little...

I'm always talking to "everyone" on ATS whenever I post my thoughts, especially on this topic, regardless of where it is (what thread), unless I quote, "reply to", or otherwise "call out by name" someone specific, you can bet it's just a general statement to all who may be interested (and maybe those who aren't for their own reasons).


This phenom, topic, whatever you want to call it, has attracted the most varied collection of humanity of anything I've ever been interested or professionally involved in. That, at the end of it all maybe why I find it so fascinating...

Look, I've seen thousands of people's posts on internet forums and various other web venues about this stuff. I've met dozens (maybe hundreds) of these folks, and probably ALL of the "experts" at one place or another. Some have become friends, some haven't. The latter has very little (usually nothing) to do with the topic and everything to do with motivations and integrity.

I understand that doesn't mean anything to anyone but me but it is true.

I also understand that those who seek to discern what's what (as I have tried to, UTTERLY unsuccessfully I might add) and actually think they've figured it out are kidding themselves in my opinion. That's all I was trying to say, and not to anyone in particular.

I guess the fact it required several posts to get that across could be an indication that my communication skills have aged right along with me.

In any case, it's all good. I APPLAUD anyone who still has the patience to look, think, and draw their own conclusions on this stuff as long as they as their conclusions don't disparage the innocent or harm any dolphins.

originally posted by: Springer
...Look, I've seen thousands of people's posts on internet forums and various other web venues about this stuff. I've met dozens (maybe hundreds) of these folks, and probably ALL of the "experts" at one place or another. Some have become friends, some haven't. The latter has very little (usually nothing) to do with the topic and everything to do with motivations and integrity.

I understand that doesn't mean anything to anyone but me but it is true.

Not at all. I can relate to that. It's also a humbling thought to better realize that, yeah, you have been exposed to these topics at that level and intensity. And reminds me that I need to pick your brain at some point. NOT, I better clarify, so much as what we're talking about here, but a few topics. Okay, maybe one or two questions related to this topic.

I don't know if this happens to you, but occasionally someone comes along who satisfies all my requirements for a good debate. No pushover, they can hold their own, they make me think, I see they ask themselves--first--superb questions and are willing to consider information contrary to their working thesis, they're also froggy & game. The kind of debate where at the end, you feel like both both parties leave with a fuller understanding of a few things than they had going in. Like this one for me.

What took down Brother Blue? I fear this was before my time.

I've also got a copy of Vallee's Stratagem coming in the mail...

washere - have you read any of Jeff Kripal's stuff? I apologize for the relative blurbyness...I've actually burned my way through so much material that I don't know what to poke at next. I've been meaning to examine Jack Verona's career in a thread, but I just haven't gotten around to it.

a reply to: 1ofthe9
Verona is a GREAT idea for his own thread. One of the toughest nuts to crack it seems, but I bet you will do a jam up job. Puhleeeze, get on that 'cause I wanna read. And play. Actually I'd be more than willing to help research if'n you would take me.

originally posted by: The GUT
a reply to: 1ofthe9
Verona is a GREAT idea for his own thread. One of the toughest nuts to crack it seems, but I bet you will do a jam up job. Puhleeeze, get on that 'cause I wanna read. And play. Actually I'd be more than willing to help research if'n you would take me.

Did you catch that he was the one who pointed Emenegger at the Holloman stuff?

That was an interesting couple pages. I feel as though (and evidenced within) ATS or any site for that matter, is something akin to ice fishing me thinks. You have to dig, sometimes in inhospitable environments, just to pull up one fish (rotten or otherwise) only to find said fish is in fact a rubber boot.

It is quite understandable yet curiously baffling that contributors of this site while in the know, can't or won't reveal pertinent information. After all, integrity isn't top priority for the fool on his journey to dusty death. I sometimes think integrity is an oxymoron. Why is it that those who live by the code and profess integrity and honor are the same that drop bombs and tomahawk cruise missiles? I'd probably piss on integrity if I ever saw it for my simple cynical mind may mistake it for ego.

From my vantage point it seems fairly simple. There are those who chose to manipulate and their role regardless of "rank" (micro v. Macro) appear to produce the same end result. ATS to me is the perfect micro expression of how #ed up we've become to where we need such discussions anyway.