The force is with us! We're enjoying the conversations started here and I can't wait to start sharing what's next in store for Don't Tread On
Media. This week we are releasing Part 2 of the Fmr. Senator and 2008 Presidential Candidate Mike Gravel interview, the last short we made before we
started getting feedback from ATS. This time we move past UFOs and into government conspiracies. I ask Mike who he believes the last "true"
president was (at least the last one who thought he actually was calling the shots), the agenda of the military industrial complex, and (returning to
a theme we touched on in the Gilliland videos), who truly has the power in the world today.
One of the things I found most interesting when comparing the James interviews with Senator Gravel's is that Mike was 100% convinced that ETs are not
working with our government, while James was certain of the contrary. What do you guys think?
Big things in the works for the future, thanks for the feedback and please keep it coming! I'll see you next week.
Here is a link to The National Citizens Initiative for Democracy - www.ncid.us...
(Also please don't forget to Comment, Like, Dislike, Subscribe or Unsubscribe to our channel. If you like what we are doing the activity on the
actual Youtube link is really important)
I campaigned for Senator Gravel back then. He was the most honest politician. That's why the media had to turn him into "grumpy/crazy old guy",
ignored him outright during debates because his responses were genuine and lucid. The guy is a fighter and I wished I had access to transcripts of
these youtube videos...just for reference reasons.
edit on 23-1-2014 by the owlbear because: (no reason given)
The National Initiative for Democracy
A POPULIST CONCEPT OF DEMOCRACY
“Let the People Decide”
The central power of government in a democracy is lawmaking –– not voting. Those who make the laws determine how, when, and if voters can vote.
Florida and Ohio are but recent examples. Governments throughout history have been tools of oppression; they need not be. American citizens can gain
control of their government by becoming lawmakers and turning its purpose to public benefit, and stemming government growth––the people are more
conservative than their elected officials regardless of political party.
Are the people qualified enough to make laws directly to govern their lives? They’re qualified enough on Election Day to give their power away to
political candidates who manipulate the electoral process to get elected. In fact, it’s easier to decide one’s self-interest directly than it is
to guess the mind of a representative who will naturally put his or her self-interest first.
More than 70% of the voters already make laws by initiative in twenty-four states and in numerous local communities, and when voting on bond issues
referred to them for decision by their representatives––serious lawmaking. American voters have made laws for the last 100 years and their record
is as good as their elected legislators––with respect to fiscal matters, the people’s record is far superior.
How do Americans become lawmakers? The Congress is not likely to dilute its power by empowering the people as lawmakers. Therefore, the people
themselves must enact the National Initiative for Democracy, a proposed law that empowers them as lawmakers
He makes so much sense that it makes you laugh out loud, at the utter absurdity of the present system of governance and law making the United States
I feel that his ideas dovetail very nicely with the following presentation or discourse called "An Idea Whose Time Has Come" by G. Edward Griffin
The so-called "elites" which is really just a codeword for crony-capitalist old-boys network now decked out in the garb of a "security guard" or a
cop via a process than can only be described (as much as i hate to admit that Alex Jones was right) as the rise of a "police state" or the
militarization of the bureaucracy - making it absolutely incumbent upon the American people, to take back the "ship of state" from the pirates who,
in the dead of night and under clock of darkness like thieves in the night, slipped into the captains chair, completely over-riding the entire
Representative Democratic Republic, like a secret coup which has become, being fundamentally self serving and thus evil at heart, infested and
corrupted by a creeping corporate and military totalitarianism, which is Fascism, with a capital F plain and simple, and hey it just has to go.
It didn't work. It wasn't "nice", at all.
Come to power my good American friends and neighbors. You CAN do it, if everyone persists unrelentingly and simply comes to power by becoming the
"relevant political community".
They the "elite" are the foil you see, by being no longer relevant, however dangerous and crazy and inept, and uncaring and greedy and selfish they
may still be, for for a while they might still cause harm, particularly in the face of a popular uprising and movement, and by that i'm not referring
to a million man march at the mall, but something emergent, like the omegapoint of the noosphere or mindsphere. An idea whose time has come.
Things are so bad that it would be a wonderful time to be an American citizen (I'm Canadian, but it's still ok to be jealous of one's friend and
neighbor, to a degree) as an, as THE active historical participant and causal free will agent of progressive change even by an infinite degree, once
the power is shifted in favor of the people, that they might once again, at some point, regain control of the ship of state, and chart a new course in
favor of a better world, instead of "Prison Island".
Obama didn't do it. Instead he continued to carry the ball, to switch metaphors as it was handed to him by Bush/Cheney (the man). The exective office
didn't do a damn thing to heal the wounds caused during the opening of the 21st century. He wasn't a savior, wasn't the second coming, oh well it
was worth hoping for at one time.. but it didn't work out.
You, are the relevant political community, the average American citizen when he/she takes responsibility for it, as the power the true power
behind the seat of a throne that the "elite" cannot understand or fathom for the life of themselves (that they might not be in the right, in the
They actually give it up and hand it over, by everything they did and by everything they did not, and failed to do, that's the thing, the throne
already belongs to the people, and to the individual. If only they (YOU) could be convinced of it, and told to shake off their (your?) apathy and
fear, preferring not to look behind of the curtain of the security veil (it's just so dark it's hard to look at or into), so you can't not see it,
the barbarism and the abuses of power where Obama turned out to be not much more than a black and white placebo, and we thought we were taking
the blue pill, or is it the red..?
Or can you?
It's like pretty obvious, eh?
WE choose the relevant socio-political reality with the help of the the internet as our communications medium, and it doesn't matter if they can see
every word we type, it's even better that way, particularly when we can make them cry by simply holding up a mirror.
They're in the wrong chair - and it was a "double bind" to begin with because of the way they rushed after it.
It's sad for some, and even a "groaner".. but funny, for the many, so a cheer goes up in the heavens and everything is started to be made right
with the world, as the first hint of the winds and the sunshine of liberty begins to dawn, relative to an evil empire, that's fallen.
Babylon is fallen... and it's smoke goes up forever and ever - but it's funny, because at the expense of all that and everything the so-called
"elite" gave (more like hogged everything to themselves for only themselves) us, gave "we the people", by comparison - a new world dawns from that
very darkness where it's always darkest before the dawn, a new age.. of hope, and love and mutuality, which is the very basis of Civility and thus of
a truly Civil Society where the people are real people and not seen as cattle to be herded or distracted.
We're smarter than they are too, individually and collectively. Some of them are actually dumb, just a clod of selfish and greedy motives, nothing
more, not really when push comes to shove.
The awakening has already taken place and the chair is open, for the little man, for the downtrodden, the tossed away the outcast, and the exploited..
but to exploit every American's own sense of patriotism, that's messing with the wrong thing and the wrong people. I know that even as a Canadian.
You can't fool all the people all the time, but the very people you least want to mess with en mass, is the American people who can somehow always
see through the veil or smell where it stinks of corruption.
They've underestimated the American people imho, (I'm Canadian but i wont't say eh).
One generation is all WE need, and we can organize it at the speed of light with support from all over the world. You know what i mean - i can't vote
obviously or do anything about it. But you can't see it isn't my business or the world's business to see the people of the USA rise up again and
refresh the tree of liberty, not with blood, but by planting a new tree in the midst of a very very dark and ugly world, that they almost all but
Come to power, American people - they ran to the wrong chair and don't know how to sit in this one, and don't deserve to, you see.
It's a great joke therefore in my opinion at the expense of everything and every ONE that needs to go and get out of the way, and it can't get out
of the way fast enough but neither does it know which way to go..! LOL
One of the things I found most interesting when comparing the James interviews with Senator Gravel's is that Mike was 100% convinced that ETs
are not working with our government, while James was certain of the contrary. What do you guys think?
There are no aliens
Nice video, Josh, our political system is seriously messed up, and anything that makes an effort to address the problems is welcome.
We understand that you want to get in there and take one for the team, and I for one want to help.
Thing is though, we need to get to know you a little better. You haven't posted an introduction thread and provided us with the usual opportunity to
haze you a little before you're turned loose on the boards. Fortunately for you, hazing at ATS is really benign and geeky.
There's something bulletproof about you, Josh, and I think that you are just the guy to go out there and become the public face of our collective
lunacy, but first we need to know...
1. Josh's favorite science fiction book?
2. Josh's favorite movie?
3. What book or author is at the top of Josh's reading list when it comes to conspiracy, UFOs or esoterica?
4. What happened to Josh that caused him to take an interest in theses strange and arcane subjects? Every one of us has a story. What's yours?
Let us know a little about yourself, Josh. We already know from part one of this thread that you do indeed believe that Aliens are working with the
government, but you'd like "proof".
Okay? I don't know about proof, but answer the questions and we'll assist you to the entrance of the rabbit-hole. To start, I'll connect the
American UFO phenomenon directly to the JFK assassination.
Oh I got hazed all right haha people did not like the idea of "Don't Tread on Media" teaming up with ATS
But I'll gladly answer your questions.
1. I can't remember my favorite science fiction book, I tend to read Non fiction political books (Libertarian leaning ones). My reading comprehension
isn't so great, its hard for me to follow books with a narrative story. But, that being said, I was given two books in middle/high school (private
school) that probably helped me become a "conspiracy theorist" the first was one called The Giver (they're making it into a movie right now) and the
second (and obvious one) is 1984. I went to a jewish school and always questioned our bible teachers. I always mentioned UFO's and the connection
between them and some bible stories. I was pretty much chastised and deemed "crazy"
2. I love pretty much all of Stanley Kubricks movies, they each have a lot to offer especially for people like us. But one film that has been
pretty much under the radar and is pretty subtle was a Peter Sellers movie called "Being There". It was made in 1979 if I am not mistaken and has
small references to the Illuminati and power that be in general. Really great film. Oh and I also LOVE "They Live"
3. I get most of the Conspiracy info from various sources online so I would be lying if I mention an Author. But as of this moment I am almost done
reading John Stossels latest book.
4. Before 9/11 I was extremely interested in UFO's / Aliens. For my research paper in 9th grade I was allowed to choose any subject so naturally I
chose Aliens/ UFO's (i got a 93%). That pretty much opened the floodgates and I was convinced we weren't told the truth about pretty much everything.
But what really changed it all for me was 9/11. My friend in Costa Rica told me to check out a website called rense.com, after that I never turned
How would you connect UFO's to JFK?
edit on 24-1-2014 by Notheycant because: (no reason given)
You asked whether or not the forum thought the government is working with "E.T.s", so the spiel that follows is my way of answering your question
from my own perspective, much of which has developed while interacting with others on threads here at ATS.
Here is how the American UFO phenomenon, all 67 years of it since Roswell, is connected to the John Kennedy assassination. There are several versions
of this story, my favorite is by Peter Levenda, which I am going to heavily paraphrase. Regardless of the precision of the timeline, Levenda's
telling seems to me to be the one that provides the best context within which we can best answer your question...
-On June 21st 1947 harbour patrolman Harold Dahl and his small crew consisting of himself, his son and his dog are anchored in Maury Island Bay off
of, you guessed it, Maury Island which is in the Puget Sound in the State of Washington. Dahl and crew see 6 silvery "do-nut-like" UFOs hovering
around. One explodes and sprays molten metal all over the place killing his dog and injuring his son. Dahl happens to get pictures and collects up
some slag. He gets his son treated and goes and tells his boss, ex-OSS agent Fred Crisman.
-Who the hell was Fred Crisman? Well, we are going to have to go back 4 years to 1943 and
Richard Sharpe Shaver and The Shaver Mystery.
-That's okay though, because we have to meet Ray Palmer the publisher and editor of
Amazing Stories! magazine. In 1943 Shaver began to write to Palmer at Amazing Stories of his experience with the Deros, or detrimental
robots, that had held him captive in their underground caves. He claimed to have remembered the torture sessions after having been
"telepathically" stimulated by the 'coil field atunements' of a welding gun whilst on the job at the factory he worked at in 1932.
Shaver's stories became a miniature publishing phenomenon and deeply lined the pockets of Raymond Palmer, and it is with the Shaver Mystery that we
have the first appearance of Fred Crisman. Most importantly we are able to place Ray Palmer and Fred Crisman together, which will be important later.
For now, let it be said that in 1946, just the year before Dahl and Maury Island, Fred Crisman had a letter he had written published in Amazing
Stories about how he had discovered Dero-Caves while fighting as a commando in Burma, and that he had fought the deros and had been injured by "a
laser weapon". Ray was sure to publish that.
-Fred Crisman is referred to by journalist Jim Marrs (a member that has a forum here at ATS) as having been an "extended agent, involved in
disruption operations as part of his brief as an Internal Security Specialist with the CIA (Alien Agenda. 1997. P. 86), just by the way. He
also either owned the boat that Dahl had been out on, or had some sort of deal with Dahl related to collecting up free-floating logs in the Puget
Sound for re-sale.
-So there's Fred, limping around with his laser-wound, and in comes Dahl and Dahl tells Crisman the story of the 6 UFOs and the dead dog. Dahl hands
the photos and the slag over to Crisman. That's important and will come up later. It's still the 21st of June, and it's evening and Crisman makes
plans with Dahl to re-visit the site in the morning. Dahl goes home.
-Only Dahl and Crisman and I would guess Dahls' son know the story right now. That's important to know because later that night or early the next
morning, Dahl is visited by "a man all dressed in black" who advises Dahl to forget the whole thing. Dahl is deeply shaken by the encounter and it
makes him a nervous wreck throughout everything else that will happen over what will become the most important 5 weeks in American UFO history (all 67
years of it).
-Crisman is up and at 'em early on the morning of the 22nd of June. He goes looking for Dahl to try to get him to go out to the site of the UFO. Dahl
won't go, though, because he is scared due to the encounter with the MIB. You see, despite the fact that only Crisman and the Dahls elder and junior
knew about the incident, the MIB had recounted the whole story to Dahl, and had "mildly" threatened Dhal's wife. So he wasn't going anywhere.
-The next day, the 23rd of June, Crisman goes out to the site himself, collects up some stuff that he described as "molten glass or metal and foil"
and claims to briefly see the same UFO as Dahl as it "slipped behind a cloud"
-Then on the 24th of June, accomplished pilot, businessman and deputy federal marshal Kenneth
Arnold is flying around Mt. Ranier in the State of Washington looking for a downed cargo plane so that he can claim the reward. At the very same
time that Dahl had his encounter, 2:00 p.m., Arnold sees nine shining UFOs. Later that night he tells the Eastern Oregonian that the objects
moved like "a saucer would if you skipped it across the water", and a star of American pop-culture was born the very next day when the paper went to
press with the newly minted word Flying Saucer.
-10 days later, overnight on the 4th/5th of July, the Roswell crash occurs. It happens that Roswell occurred on a day that was like any day in America
at the time, (remember, a significant number of people were already afraid of underground Deros), when there were dozens of UFO sightings
reported across the country every day. America was in the grips of UFO-itis! And the only cure wuz more UFOs!
-No one seems to know exactly when but at some point Fred Crisman "contacts" Ray Palmer about the Maury Island incident and Dahl. That makes sense,
in light of what we know about Ray, Fred and the Burmese laser-wound. But, here is where it starts to get really weird. You probably thought we were
already to weird, but we are hardly to weird, Josh. Ray Palmer of Amazing Stories magazine had already offered Kenneth Arnold $200.00 for his Flying
-What sort of slight-of-hand takes place I can only guess at, but the next thing we know, Ray Palmer has scheduled Kenneth Arnold to meet with and
interview (presumably for Amazing Stories) Harold Dahl and Fred Crisman in Tacoma Washington on July 30th. Remember, the only people who are supposed
to have known at this point about Dahl's encounter, photos and metal slag are Dahls Jr. and Sr., Crisman and now through Palmer, Kenneth Arnold.
-Because when Arnold gets to Tacoma there is no room at the inn, no hotel has a room for him except for the Winthrop Hotel, the most expensive
place in town, where a room has been anonymously reserved for him.
-There in the room at the Winthrop, Arnold first interviewed Dahl who broke down, even under the fear he felt from the threat of the MIB, and
recounted to Arnold the story he had told Crisman. A very shaken Dahl also added to the tale by telling Arnold that he had received an anonymous
letter telling him that the "UFOs he had seen were piloted by aliens who had become visible due to U.S. atomic explosions, and that they were
visiting the earth to help protect it from unspecified enemies".
-One thing to note is how terrified Dahl seemed to be, and the only one that was in the tiny circle of people that it would seem could be terrifying
Dahl would be Crisman; ex-OSS officer and self-professed "disruption agent" now harbour patrolman Fred Crisman.
-According to the time-line of this story, Arnold is supposed to have been having these interviews over several days, at some point someone, it could
only be Dahl, Arnold or Crisman, starts to leak the details of Arnold's interviews with the Tacoma times and the United Press. Yes, the only room in
town, the only one that Arnold could find when he got to Tacoma that had been mysteriously reserved for him, was bugged. At this point, especially
after interviewing Crisman, Arnold was sure his leg was being pulled and he wanted a second opinion.
-Arnold contacted a fellow pilot by the name of Captain E. J. Smith who flew to Tacoma to help him out. Smith and Arnold both felt as though Crisman
was trying to control the investigation and Smith told Arnold that he thought Crisman was a hoaxster. 1947 was the year that the House Un-American
Activities Committee (HUAC) was formed, and Arnold wanted to be sure that no espionage was afoot, he and Smith mistrusted Crisman, and Crisman was the
first to support Arnold's insistence that the military be brought in. Dahl was still terrified of the MIB and wanted nothing to do with it. Arnold,
being a vigilant American, called them in anyway.
-Arnold called in the same two Army Intelligence officers that had interviewed him after he had seen the "Flying Saucers" at Mt. Ranier, Lieutenant
Brown and Captain Davidson. When they got there they told Smith and Arnold that the whole thing was a hoax and that it could be ignored. Arnold
wondered at how they would be able to form that opinion without the officers having interviewed either Dahl or Crisman. Some versions of the story
tell that the officers made excuses to Arnold about having to be back at base for some commemorative military event and they made their way to the
-Then at the airport, having had been no where to be seen all day, Crisman appears and gives Army Intelligence officers Brown and Davidson a box,
telling them that it contains the fragments of the UFOs that he had been holding back (but not the photos that Dahl said that he had taken and given
to Crisman). The two Army Officers along with the box then board their B-52 to go home and they never make it. The bird crashes. The enlisted guys
parachute to safety and the two officers, Brown and Davidson, go down with the plane. That's the official story.
-20 some-odd years later, Fred Crisman was subpoenaed by Jim Garrison to testify in the case against Clay Shaw in the John F. Kennedy assassination;
he was never called as a witness. Nevertheless, Fred Crisman was the first person that Clay Shaw
called when he was arrested prior to prosecution and ultimately acquittal.
Concerning the uncanny frequency with which Fred Crisman appears in and is an integral part of these seminal American historical events, Peter Levenda
had this to say...
Thus, the 1947 UFO sightings attracted two men - Crisman and Banister - who both would come under suspicion twenty years later for their supporting
roles in the Kennedy assassination. The odds against this happening must be astronomical.
It is the constant appearance of "coincidences" like these that leave most amateur conspiracy theorists apoplectic, speechless with disbelief and
gazing on the world around them with haunted, suspicious expressions, as if reality itself were layered like an onion, a palimpsest on which numerous
events were written over each other, all on the same page.
At this point, we can almost sympathize with Pontius Pilate, who asked, "What is truth?" - and the temptation to wash one's hands of the whole
matter is almost too strong.
-Peter Levenda. Sinister Forces: A Grimoire of American Political Witchcraft. Vol. 1. P. 174
And that's it for the time being. I have a lot of thoughts on the whole mess and some more replies to your response. I wanted to get this up for the
time being so that I held up my end of the deal. Thanks for answering the questions, Josh.
My reading comprehension isn't so great, its hard for me to follow books with a narrative story
Reading is a discipline, you just have to practice. If you can't overcome that problem, it is going to work against you as a person that is dedicated
to understanding what is really just a body of text.
The body of writing that constitutes the history of the American UFO phenomenon could almost be thought of as a
text corpus, or at least it seems to me that much of it could be organized in to one.
See? That's the problem, Josh, with you being 24. To study this stuff you need to build a database in your head of all the details that you are able
to discover about the subject and the only way to get it in there is to read about it.
To read about it all you need time. Lots and lots of time. And there's also the sacrifice; it won't feel like sacrifice to you because it's something
that you want to do, but you will understand when 10 or 20 years have passed and certain aspects of life may have passed you by while you are left
standing there with nothing but a head full of UFO lore.
The problem of the reading and writing can't be gotten around, it has to be dealt with on its own terms and you will only become frustrated if you try
to enforce your own terms upon it. The only way to do this is to learn the whole story so that you have a personal database of this information
to query when the bull# gets thick enough for boots.
You could just go out there on your own, pre-equipped as you are with your bad reading comprehension and poor relationship with narrative but that's
going to be just about as useful to you as a football-bat. Why, Josh? Because that's what the government is working with, not E.T.s Josh; they are
working with the story, the narrative itself. When you or I or anyone is engaged with the story, we are in it, living it, in contact with
living history and by putting our attention on it we change it and it changes us, sometimes permanently.
The "government" is studying that because they want to understand and harness its power.
I have my own ideas, Josh, some that I share with others here in the forums, concerning how this is all reflected in the shift in research in the late
90s from what we at ATS might term "electronic methods of mind-control" and "remote viewing"-type of projects to computational linguistics and the
study of things like narrative disruptors.
What many of us have been focused on, as best we can, for the last couple of years happens to be the subject of the most popular thread on the forum
right now. Member TheGut has posted it and since it's relatively new you won't have to read through too many pages. Even better, there is a video
there that was created by ATS member MrMask that is much loved by all of us that will give you one of the best run-downs possible on Jacques Vallee
and his concept of The Control System.
That's what's wrong with the world today! The UFO technology isn't being used to its fullest! A small group has it but their doing nothing with it
and thus the world is suffering. When we get up off our butts and go to work then things will get better for the world. The world wasn't lazy to the
fact of making nuclear weapons they had to get up off their butts and make them or else and the else is exactly what the world is getting right now
and so we need to go to work but the government will not let us sad but true.
"Better the world should perish than that I or any other human being believe a lie. That is the religion of thought in whose scorching flames the
dross of the world is being burnt away." Bertrand Russell 1872-1970
I felt as if he wanted to say something else or was hinting at the listeners to do something about this.
There was a bit of a cryptic message there and I'm not sure I caught it. Will have to read the replies
I hope you don't read a bunch of Jacques Vallee trickery
Sorry to the daft punk guy who suggested it.
I used to hate reading. None of it absorbed. So I tried with a book that had a Subject I was really interested in. Soon I couldn't stop reading and
had no problem absorbing it. You just need to use bookmarks and maybe re read where you left off before continuing on as a refresher to keep the flow
of the story.
Here is more on the word "Force!" "All governments, whatever their political complexion are at present willy-nilly in their grip of Natural
"Forces!" which can only be dealt with by a degree of intelligence of which mankind hitherto has shown little evidence." Bertrand Russell 1872-1970
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