i didnt want to be "that" guy, but here it is, the reason the collapse is happening.

"The illegals in America are the reason for (most of) the problems of today"


That's the fantasy tale of the "not so educated" lower class since it's easier to blame bad things on other people such as minorities...rather than understanding the far more complex things which are REALLY responsible for the problems.

But..let's just blame Jose for "the collapse"....it feels good if you have a target for your anger...right?

(And let's just ignore the countless other reasons WHY your country is in **** ......seriously...)

Fylgje
While I agree that illegal immigration is a serious problem, and is a cause, I would also blame all the jobs that have been sent to China and elsewhere. We don't make any of our own stuff anymore, which doesn't make any sense, because if we did, we'd have enough jobs for American citizens, but also, the illegal ones too. We need to build factories and make most of the stuff on store shelves. Allow only 9% of the rest of the stuff on store shelves to be foreign. Then, the economy would flourish and many people could be happy happy happy. But they don't want that, you see. NO! They got us exactly where they want us.

edit on 20-1-2014 by Fylgje because: had to correct typo

Exactly!!!

Which is the reason for this thread! I only meant to point out the method employed to further this end.

It is travesty, it is a crime against humanity, it should be punished by the people of all races and nations at once.

None will listen or stop it though, the quite few of us that see this crime will be powerless to stop it against the tide, blinded as they are, who think this is in their best interest.

reply to post by oblvion


Here's my take, FWIW.

Ideally, in a free market capitalist system, immigration trends don't matter. I realize from security standpoints, you gotta watch the border. 100,000 foreign troops coming over and settling in Wichita would make one hell of an insurgency; so to protect sovereignty there must be at least some order at the border.

As far as economics are concerned though, illegal immigration doesn't bother me. I'm personally not bothered by having to compete. In fact, I think competition makes me better. What kills me is the fact that it's not a free market. In a truly free market, I don't need a buy, register, and maintain a business permit. In a free market my small business would not be paying a higher tax rate than GE, we'd be paying the same tax rate.

All that said, I do agree with your conclusion; in the end there will be three classes of people. By design there will be the workers, there will be the politburo, and there will be the security/military forces. There will be no corporate executives as politburo technocrats will fill that role; a role we have already seen them take.

Republicans setup and build the corporate technocracy so the Democrats can regulate them; and neither the Republicans or Democrats would have it any other way.

vind21

webedoomed
So I'm guessing by 17 thousand you mean 17 million, and by .gov you mean the United States government.

[snip]

Okay, so you're racist, and choose to focus on illegal immigration. Gotcha.

Why no mention of the federal reserve, or the declining EROI for domestic energy production?

Why no mention of the US going off the gold standard in the 70's, or spreading their military thin fighting resource wars?

Why no mention of the declining math and science scores compared to other developed nations, and the fall of tech related patents coming from the United States?

How are we supposed to take you seriously when you don't even understand basic economics, or US history?

When did illegal immigration start? Was this country not founded by immigrants?

Would you argue that slavery led to financial ruins generations ago by exploiting people for work with less resources needed to obtain it?

I think there's so many holes in your reasoning. It clearly points to insecurities, and pure ignorance.

Stop watching Fox News.

edit on 19-1-2014 by webedoomed because: (no reason given)

edit on 20/1/14 by masqua because: Removed personal attack

It's posts like this that keep us down. I would say the biggest drain on society right now is people who can not deal with adult conversation. This kind of childish response to a well written, well meaning post, should be detestable. Sadly this is what is "accepted" these days. Turning a normal argument into PC and Racism when none was implied does nothing but make you look like a complete ignorant fool in the eyes of people that want results and to solve problems.

There's nothing wrong with immigration, the thing that is broken is US policy and enforcement of it. Many times in our the History of America we have delt with mass immigration, Elise island, the Chinese integration and others, when the work force got flooded by immigrants and caused these exact same issues in the past, they were delt with, not with amnesty, not by kicking people out of the country, but by integrating them into it, by setting up emergency response facilities to process the immigrants, by changing the current rules and laws to correct the immediate situation.

ITS ONLY IS THE DAYS OF SMALL MINDED POLITICAL CORRECTNESS THAT WE HAVE NOT BE ABLE TO DEAL WITH THIS ISSUE or any issue for that matter. Nearly every issue outlined in the reply is a direct cause of political correct garbage.

Why are our kids scores bad? -Well we are not even allowed to test them evenly anymore much less expect that all kids have a basic proficiency in certain skills to graduate, cause that would be unfair. I mean I had to sign a permission slip so that the a teacher in Elementary school could administer a basic skills assessment to her class so she could know what actually needed to be taught, how insane is that....

Why do we have no tech or energy production? -Because when we needed to regulate pollution and industry it became such a political issue with Global BS warming, the EPA nAzis, and people chaining themselves to trees that no one can even talk about the important issues of reducing waste and properly storing chemicals, instead we have ribbon cutting ceremonies at C02 sequestration plants that only operate 5 days of the year but cost 5 billion dollars to run. Why don't we spend the 5 billion sending jobless people to washington to replant the de-forested clear cutting areas? That sure cu carbon, and it would even employ people AND it would become a resource for the future.



Immigration and wage reduction has been solved at least 3 times in 200 years, its shameful that we can't do it now because people wont face up to mere words and hold us all back from dealing with the actual issue and want to focus on unrelated elementary school play ground politics.


Yes we need a Latino Elise island, where they can quickly and easily become citizens, get SS, get licenses, and pay taxes, and become part of the ex-greatest society on earth. We don't need to charge people 50,000$ and make them wait 5 years. If you can recite the Pledge of Allegiance in English, good enough, most immigrants are pretty hardy people they can sort themselves out. I have an app on my phone that can translate Spanish to English and many other languages, I got for free, it gets me by when I go to Korea so I can't imagine it wouldn't be able to do the same for Spanish speaking people or English speaking people. The rest will come with time over a generation or two. I use it when I visit my wife's parents who don't speak any English, I use it when I go shopping in a country where I don't know the language. It really is that easy until you call me a racist simply because I used the word Latino.

There are hundreds of causes for the decline of the USA, many of which are direct results of poor policy by government, and exploitation of National borders by big business. I would argue that the people that need the History lesson in the room are the ones that don't understand how simple the argument in the OP is, it has been shown correct many times in history. When you have 20% of the population of the country not even counted as citizens, its a good place to start with reform. There is obviously a problem with the system not the people.

Drop the politics and try to be Human, its a Human issue.

Don't just stop watching fox news, turn off ALL TV NETWORK NEWS, please do this for yourself. The USA no longer has News Networks, they simply get people angry at each other reporting garbage that has no relevance.


To webedoomed, Im sorry I called out your post, I don't think you are some bad person or have bad intentions or are an idiot, it simply was a prime example of a response that went to the racism card when no racism was implied in the orginal post.

edit on 20-1-2014 by vind21 because: (no reason given)

You are exactly the type of person made this thread for, you see the trees through the forest.

There is much that needs to be discussed, all PC idiocy aside. Only with those that can realise reality over idiotic political rhetoric can help solve it.

What does your mind tell you the way forward should be at this moment?

GenerationGap
reply to post by oblvion

 

Here's my take, FWIW.

Ideally, in a free market capitalist system, immigration trends don't matter. I realize from security standpoints, you gotta watch the border. 100,000 foreign troops coming over and settling in Wichita would make one hell of an insurgency; so to protect sovereignty there must be at least some order at the border.

As far as economics are concerned though, illegal immigration doesn't bother me. I'm personally not bothered by having to compete. In fact, I think competition makes me better. What kills me is the fact that it's not a free market. In a truly free market, I don't need a buy, register, and maintain a business permit. In a free market my small business would not be paying a higher tax rate than GE, we'd be paying the same tax rate.

All that said, I do agree with your conclusion; in the end there will be three classes of people. By design there will be the workers, there will be the politburo, and there will be the security/military forces. There will be no corporate executives as politburo technocrats will fill that role; a role we have already seen them take.

Republicans setup and build the corporate technocracy so the Democrats can regulate them; and neither the Republicans or Democrats would have it any other way.

You are scary my friend, you just summed up most of the problem in a scant few sentences, seemingly without any form of trouble.

If the truth is so easily seen by you, perhaps you can also see some possible cure.......please tell us how you see any possible future that doesn't include the people being used raped and cast aside as soon as higher profits or power gains can be found elsewhere.

kazanoom
reply to post by oblvion

 

So it's those "liberals" who are ultimately to blame. What a load of blathering nonsense. The great recession began under Bush's watch. Remember? Stop rewriting history.

I never blamed liberals, not once, you saw what you wanted to see, let me guess your one of those people that let's one political party or the other dictate their entire world view? In this case your a liberal, so my pointing out anything they did wrong while in the midst of a long and protracted discussion about complex worldwide events, means it is all their fault?

Lol' small minded and closed to new ideas much?

Unless your willing to see the facts, I never blamed it all or anything really on demos, other than pointing out Freddy and fanhy were their fault, which is an indisputable fact, then we have no further reason for discourse in this thread.

Good day to you sir

reply to post by CleanCare


I understand most if not all of the illegals that are here fighting for their families. Will it be, as you say heartless, to make sure your family has what they need? I will pull that trigger to make sure my family gets what they need and so will millions of others. Kick their asses the hell out of here and when they go thru the process to become citizens then they can come back.

I don't see immigration as the main cause of the collapse. I see the outsourcing of jobs to other countries as the culprit. America became the world's leading superpower because of its manufacturing industry. The shareholders of these manufacturing companies always wanted to see a maximum return on their invested money and outsourcing jobs for cheaper labour in other countries helped to achieve this end.

The problem is that no other jobs were created to replace the ones that were lost to outsourcing. This is where the government should have stepped in and imposed heavy tariffs on anything manufactured outside the US to make it difficult for these companies to make profits from cheaper labour. Greed trumps everything and of course, this never happened. This is why we are where we are today.

Until the governments start making decisions based on what's best for the people and not the corporations, we are stuck in this mud hole and I don't see things changing until the people get so pissed that they force the government to do what's right. Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.

What does illegals have to do with the collapse of the economy . This thread has totally started chasing rabbits .
NAFTA is a Global Government creation which allows our work to be outsourced and insourced within the North American Union . The North American Free Trade Act was created during Clintons presidency and he is a big Bilderberg member along with his Globalist butt sucking buddy Bush Sr. But before that came about Dr Richard Day working for the Rockefeller Foundation while giving a seminar about his work as the head of Planned Parenthood felt compelled to elude to the doctors in attendance the plans for America . He told the doctors to turn off their recorders and do not take notes . From there on he told of how American industry would be sabotaged and made non profitable by the EPA and of course making foreign labor a lot more profitable . This of course would take changing laws to get rids of tariffs and tax laws for off shore profits . This seminar was given in 1969 . The deindustrialization of America would be absolutely necessary for Globalism to succeed and the One World Government to become a reality . This was of course the plan of the Global Elite headed by the Rothschild Dynasty. The poor Latin American has nothing to do with the fall of America and the world . He is only a symptom of the grandiose plan of a very Elite group of men who call themselves Jews but are indeed Khazar descendants and ultimately Gentile .

Darkmask
I don't see immigration as the main cause of the collapse. I see the outsourcing of jobs to other countries as the culprit. America became the world's leading superpower because of its manufacturing industry. The shareholders of these manufacturing companies always wanted to see a maximum return on their invested money and outsourcing jobs for cheaper labour in other countries helped to achieve this end.

The problem is that no other jobs were created to replace the ones that were lost to outsourcing. This is where the government should have stepped in and imposed heavy tariffs on anything manufactured outside the US to make it difficult for these companies to make profits from cheaper labour. Greed trumps everything and of course, this never happened. This is why we are where we are today.

Until the governments start making decisions based on what's best for the people and not the corporations, we are stuck in this mud hole and I don't see things changing until the people get so pissed that they force the government to do what's right. Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.

I agree with of what you said here, but the government couldn't impose heavy tariffs as the free trade agreements specifically bar them from doing so.

reply to post by oblvion

This was a big problem long before there was a free trade agreement.

The government could just void the free trade agreement and do what is right for the American economy. Only problem, big money is in the way. When big money wants something, big money gets it.

reply to post by oblvion

The collapse is by design, check out Confessions of an Economic Hitman.

Confessions of an Economic Hitman pt1

Its pretty obvious it is by design as they park 32 trillion offshore tax free.

$32 trillion stashed offshore

Some even allude to the fact that these are in IRS tax havens.

$32 trillion needs IRS attention ?

This what is basically out in the open and easily traceable, what is hidden better ???

What is basically untraceable in hard assets such as gems etc ???

What we find out is much like my moniker I have claimed.

Welcome to the Kleptocracy fellow citizen serfs.

Kleptocracy = Government for thieves by thieves.

The pirates on the Potomac are bought and paid for, and it doesn't matter what side of the aisle.

Wall street is basically a numbers racket that was previous outlawed in the past, now
made legal, and fraud is allowed because so many ppl in the system are part of it.

Soon they will attempt to steal the 401k's, IRA's, and any and all other retirement accounts.

They even openly talk about "nationalizing" the retirement accounts and rolling them into
bankrupt SSI so they can loot it like they did from the time of the DOT COM bubble when
they proclaimed they had a surplus, lol.

Here is part of the info concerning how they want to steal the rest of the money
in ppls retirement accounts thru various shell games similar to the ones used
by Enron and other Corporate pirates.

The plan to steal all retirement accounts

reply to post by poet1b

poet1b
Robotics does not eliminate jobs, only the need for giant corporations. With robotics and automation, we could revise small business across the country.

Very good point.
I didn't think of it this way eventhough we already see examples of this... thanks for the input!

Darkmask
I don't see immigration as the main cause of the collapse. I see the outsourcing of jobs to other countries as the culprit. America became the world's leading superpower because of its manufacturing industry. The shareholders of these manufacturing companies always wanted to see a maximum return on their invested money and outsourcing jobs for cheaper labour in other countries helped to achieve this end.

Ding-Ding-Ding, We have a Winner!

And this outsourcing and the resulting loss of jobs and poor economy is a result of "free" and unregulated capitalism.

I think that the numbers of immigrants, even the illegal ones, play no real relevant role as compared to the MASSIVE numbers of perfectly legally "outsourced-to" workers in countless 2nd and 3rld world countries along with the effect of this on the economy.

(This is NOT to say that illegals have no negative effect, just saying that this probably pales entirely in comparison).

The PROBLEM is....blaming the corporates (the bosses and CEOs etc.) for the collapse would mean actual CRITICISM on very real and very real applied capitalism. And many people simply cannot get themselves to blame their holy "nothing is better than our system" attitude, so it's easier to blame Jose Gonzales than admitting than there is a serious flaw in unregulated capitalism.

reply to post by NoRulesAllowed


You have not considered the NWO Zionist Globalist plot that is planning a global takeover . After they destroy America financially and morally which is what they are doing we are done .

reply to post by fractal2


Hong Kong is a hell hole depending on what side of the wealth divide you fall under. Kong Kong and Singapore are also have the largest divide between the rich and the poor.

finance.yahoo.com...

Hong Kong also has one of the largest public housing sectors in the world, with about half the population living in government-supported or -subsidized housing estates.

Singapore is number 2, and now the U.S. is number 3, with the largest income gap since 1928.

On average wages Hong Kong is ranked below South Africa.

www.statista.com...

Maybe Hong Kong is you idea of paradise, but not mine.

reply to post by poet1b

Your assessment of Hong Kong as a hell hole is simply wrong. The median income in Hong Kong is about $3,000 per month. Source: www.bloomberg.com...

Hong Kong has had lots of immigration, yet their economy is not in the process of destruction. People don't move to hell holes by the millions. They move to places where they believe they will be better off.

The rich-poor gap is irrelevant. By socialist logic, it is better to have 1 million people living in abject starvation and poverty than 999,999 people living an abject poverty and starvation and then 1 person earning $1M per year, because the place where everyone is living in squalor has no rich-poor gap. The rich-poor gap complainers simply want to destroy everyone who makes a good life for them self because "no fair!". No, whats no fair is being negative to someone just because they have a good life. Hong Kong has a large number of millionaires. Good.

Fact: Nobody on ATS has on this thread offered a single shred of evidence more than their own guesswork that high immigration is bad for an economy. Fact.

Dude... if a guy with no ressources, connections, education (we don t know that) can come to your country and take your job, maybe it s YOU who sucks...

On this subject. I watched an interview with Bill Gates. It gave me a sinking feeling. I figure whatever he says go for the legislators and their king makers. He has no heart for the american people. When asked about the wealth gap his answer was education. Too late for most. You see, the concensus among "them" are, americans are a spoiled lot and compared to India we have it pretty good.

Continue to blame illegals because that is what "they" want you to believe. An age old distraction, to blame the voiceless. Work, pay YOUR taxes, so Mitt Romney and his family and the like can live off you.

I will be gone for awhile. I helped so many people (working or I would not help) with their bills that I can't pay mine.

If anything greed is the sole cause of 99.9% of the US's (and the rest of the world's) problems to date, and all the myriad of reasons being presented in this thread are just a side effect of said greed.

Illegal immigrants are hired because they will work for wages below the minimum which allows those that hire them, for wages below the minimum, to maximize profits.

Capitalism is fueled by greed. The manufacturing powerhouse that the US once was; destroyed by greed. The housing collapse was caused by greed. OK, that's enough, anyone can see where I'm going with this by now.

One can articulate, debate, throw various angles of approach at the argument, and come up with the most profound conspiracy theories, but (warning: overused cliche ahead) at the end of the day, greed is the root cause of it all... Always has been and always will be!

For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And some people, craving money, have wandered from the true faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows.

1 Timothy 6:10 NLT

Say and believe what you want about the Bible, but it got this right!