If Religion is so AWESOME tell me WHY?

Do you really need to have religion in your life to know what is right or wrong? I don't. I know what is right and what is wrong.
I don't need religion to understand right from wrong; do you?

And how, exactly, do you know? You can't say it comes from society's laws, laws can be, and have been shown to be, wrong and immoral. You couldn't have learned it from another person, that's just pushing the question back. Where did theylearn it from? Certainly, you didn't learn it from school. Nor were you taught by religion, according to you.

So, you claim to have a developed moral code for which the source is unknown. Further, this code must be pretty much the same for everyone in the world. (If they were different, you'd have no way of judging which was "better.")

If you'd like a discussion, I'd be happy to join you.

The same and only way anyone can "know" anything at all, which is to experience it for themselves. Actually, just the experience may not even be enough, but only the first needed step. Next would be to reflect upon that experience and learn something from it. But basically, that's how you know. Or at least as close as you can be to knowing anyway.

kisskiss
reply to post by winofiend

 

meditating and power of positive thinking failed for more than a decade

then I started praying and got exactly what I prayed for

I agree with you that there are so many bad things in the world and there is no easy way to fix them

maybe my little boys when they grow up, with help find a solution - who knows?

Haha.. well that put me backin my box.

The world needs more people like you. Great attitude!

reply to post by mOjOm

Dear mOjOm,

As Mr. Confusion, I have an endless supply of it available for other posters to clear up.

The same and only way anyone can "know" anything at all, which is to experience it for themselves. Actually, just the experience may not even be enough, but only the first needed step. Next would be to reflect upon that experience and learn something from it. But basically, that's how you know. Or at least as close as you can be to knowing anyway.

So at birth we have no moral code, as we get a little older our experiences tell us what works. Things like crying to get food, or taking our sister's toys. Unless a parent steps in to tell us that such a thing is bad, we won't know. Besides, the fact that it gets a little circular, we're just taking our parent's code until we're more out on our own.

And with different experiences, wouldn't it follow that people would form different moral codes? That's a mess.

This almost makes me think that people don't have their own moral code until they're in their 20's, and as we can see, many 20 year olds behave as if they have very twisted moral codes indeed. Perhaps only people in their 50's or older have valid moral codes?

Can you see my confusion? I'd appreciate a hand.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Actually, I don't think you're confused at all. You seem to have a very good grasp of exactly what and where moral codes do in fact come from.

Very early on, it is taught to us in one form or another by parents by spanking, punishments, etc.

As we get older, we start creating our own and or modifying any pre-installed ones which have been given to us. We do this in every way possible from Reading about them in books to taking other peoples advice or even once again by being punished or rewarded for acting a certain way.

Now, when I say that for us to "Know" them however, it is only when we actually experience what happens because of the codes we live by which is how we come to know our moral code personally. Not that we can't read one in a book and logically understand and follow it, but to experience it is to understand it without needing any belief or logic.

In other words, I don't think there is a Universal Moral Code. At least not that we'd ever comprehend most likely. There will always be some subjectivity to it which is unavoidable. Although I think a fairly accurate one could be developed and understood that while not True Universally, would be pretty close.

reply to post by charles1952


i dont think we know what baby morals are really like
]

here are some articles about experiments into what infants know

www.dailymail.co.uk...

www.nbcnews.com...


so is it nature or nurture? the jury is still out

Religion is only as useful and effective as the people who use it, just like anything else.

soulpowertothendegree
We live in a world where religion is paramount to our existence as a human. You are either on the side that believes or doesn't believe the stories of the Bible, Koran, or numerous other religious based texts, but I just have a very basic problem with this religion concept. It has absolutely no basis for existing if the the fundamental reason is to extoll the virtues of righteousness.

Religion is an antique of humanity's past which served a very important purpose in ancient times.

Before philosophy, it was our only medium for producing a model of our understanding of the universe; Greek Gods were more like personifications of natural forces, their myths an attempt to pass on an understanding of the world. Creation myths are present in every religion and are not terribly far off from the truth in many cases.

It has been a tool for educating people in moral values, for bringing people together under a unified culture, and for preserving wisdom of the previous generations verbally, or in literary form, or through ritual events etc.

It has also been perverted and used as a justification for war: "those people worship a different god/false idol, therefore we must destroy them, take their children for our slaves, take their women for our wives, take their livestock for our use, and take their wealth for the priesthood! God commands it!" Because of course, killing, enslaving, looting and raping other people are all actions totally sanctioned by God according to your moral codes /sarcasm

How can you pray to a GOD about anything one minute and then be completely immoral the next? Religion is steeped in hypocrisy. Do you really need to have religion in your life to know what is right or wrong? I don't. I know what is right and what is wrong.

I too have a seemingly innate moral sense which seems to be absent in many religious people.

I hear this assertion often in the gay/anti-gay threads: "homosexuality is as bad as murder, rape, promiscuity, theft, lying etc. because the bible says so."
This indicates to me that the individual who believes this has no innate moral sense of their own and must rely on the written word of 4000-year-old nomadic tribesmen, because they were raised to believe that these ancient moral codes are absolute.

It is clear to anyone with this moral sense that:
Murder (ending someone's life) is worse than theft (taking someone's goods)
Rape (forceful sexual relations) is worse than promiscuity (consensual sexual relations with multiple partners)
and Homosexuality (in monogamous, consensual form) does not harm anyone.
So why should each of these "sins" bear the same punishment (death)?

Ask yourself why you are buying Christmas presents and celebrating a ridiculous notion that is the basis for the economic stimulus we use to survive in our fake commercialized society?

I'm under no illusions about Christmas. I know that it is not Jesus' birthday. At best it is a celebration of the end of winter solstice, the beginning of a new solar cycle. At worst, a fabricated holiday to encourage more consumption of material goods to keep the blood of capitalism pumping.

I watch the news and see stories about the Pope having a desire to change the way the Vatican operates; that would be great, right? If it wasn't a crock of poop.

This new pope is actually a pretty cool guy. He definitely walks the walk and embodies every ideal a Christian should according to their teachings. Whether or not he will be able to affect actual change remains to be seen.

Faith is much more important than religion.

Religion corrupts and has always been about power, control, and money. Faith is all that matters. Your relationship with whoever/whatever you believe. It's all the same regardless of where your faith comes from.

reply to post by soulpowertothendegree


I've been stomped on religion for a long time as well. I found myself reading into different religions. Lately I've been reading Jainism, it's over 8000 years old, one of the oldest religions still in practice. It's a religion of non violence, inspired people like Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. In Jainism they believe we pray because it provides mental peace, reminds us of the virtues of great souls, has a sobering effect on our ego, and uplifts our spirits and provides a moral boost in the midst of problems and difficulties. They also believe once the soul devoids all Karmas and desires, it becomes God. They don't believe in God as a creator or nurturer. They basically follow certain principles including nonviolence, always being straight forward and speaking the truth, never steal, non-possessiveness to material things, kindness to animals,vegetarianism, avoidance of waste, charity, etc, loads of great things to follow.

ladybug121
reply to post by soulpowertothendegree

 

I've been stomped on religion for a long time as well. I found myself reading into different religions. Lately I've been reading Jainism, it's over 8000 years old, one of the oldest religions still in practice. It's a religion of non violence, inspired people like Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. In Jainism they believe we pray because it provides mental peace, reminds us of the virtues of great souls, has a sobering effect on our ego, and uplifts our spirits and provides a moral boost in the midst of problems and difficulties. They also believe once the soul devoids all Karmas and desires, it becomes God. They don't believe in God as a creator or nurturer. They basically follow certain principles including nonviolence, always being straight forward and speaking the truth, never steal, non-possessiveness to material things, kindness to animals,vegetarianism, avoidance of waste, charity, etc, loads of great things to follow.

Sounds like a pretty awesome philosophy. Not necessarily one I would be inclined to adhere to in its entirety, but certainly one I can admire. Thanks for sharing.

A couple questions, though. According to Jainism, once the soul is refined to pure and absolute existence, it becomes an actual deity? What qualities are attributed to this state of being "God"? What qualifies it so specifically as to be labeled a "god"? How was this established?

These are questions that I always ask when determining the factual nature of what it is to be a "god". No one has been able to satisfy me on the subject.

AfterInfinity
ladybug121
reply to post by soulpowertothendegree

ladybug12q
I've been stomped on religion for a long time as well. I found myself reading into different religions. Lately I've been reading Jainism, it's over 8000 years old, one of the oldest religions still in practice. It's a religion of non violence, inspired people like Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. In Jainism they believe we pray because it provides mental peace, reminds us of the virtues of great souls, has a sobering effect on our ego, and uplifts our spirits and provides a moral boost in the midst of problems and difficulties. They also believe once the soul devoids all Karmas and desires, it becomes God. They don't believe in God as a creator or nurturer. They basically follow certain principles including nonviolence, always being straight forward and speaking the truth, never steal, non-possessiveness to material things, kindness to animals,vegetarianism, avoidance of waste, charity, etc, loads of great things to follow.

So anyone that conquers egoisism can become a God in the 3rd dimension (that would be becoming 'selfless' pure living for the masses). Giving instead of taking. This is a very high form of conscousness raising; lessoning of entropy. Those 'self seeking' are living within the lower realms (and are branded as numbskulls, the unenlightenned. You realize all of this is allowed). Im not sure that once you reach the purity IFACTO you suggest one can or WILL BOTHER to come back as a God Aspect (seems santimonious, or some type of self gratification comes into play EGO). I thought the whole point was to return to "source" and once again recombine (tell it all of your individual experiences).

AfterInfinity
Sounds like a pretty awesome philosophy. Not necessarily one I would be inclined to adhere to in its entirety, but certainly one I can admire. Thanks for sharing.

A couple questions, though. According to Jainism, once the soul is refined to pure and absolute existence, it becomes an actual deity? What qualities are attributed to this state of being "God"? What qualifies it so specifically as to be labeled a "god"? How was this established?

These are questions that I always ask when determining the factual nature of what it is to be a "god". No one has been able to satisfy me on the subject.

Here; there exists the problem. If one has reached a state of consciousness (MUCH HIGHER than the smarter than the average Bear) why return to become a human overlord or master. Youd think youd be over it (too simple too manipulative). Who are the ones that are in fact 'false demi-Gods', I can name a few that have taken advantage in history of the stumble bumble soul journeying human. I always thought once you acheive a state of/or with the "ONE ABSOLUTE" (deity) you stay there; as in recombine with it; tell it your stories and IT continues on in its quest for better managment ease of operation, 'good job' 'nicely done' etc. to futher its existance/knowledge (which is the point).

it was originally to scare minions,it got out of hand.

haven123
it was originally to scare minions,it got out of hand.

Scare them (us into some kind of retro evolution) not possible the snowball is rolling down hill, picking up ice particals momentum synconicity combines with entropy lessoning; speeding up the 'self awareness' of the ball. Its going to wind up in someones backyard as finally a sculpted '6 people' (can fit easily seated)'ice couch' until the June thaw. This is the problem with the Demi-Gods AS YOU SAY "work using/manipulating /through fear factorisms". They couldnt be the real deal because I was told GOD IS LOVE (and I WOULD believe it; if said from the HORSES MOUTH). Always as usual silent regarding the subject; its so far beyond our comprehension and allows the demi-gods to speak for it. The cells in my liver cannot anticipate the whole of the being they exist within (they are merely functionary compartmentalised adjutants). Someone ME needs to tell them there is a brain trust and they have a Boss that is aware of them. I see no reason this 3D universe cannot/will not or does not function in the VERY same way. Problem; God will not reveal itself to me, I can and do pertaining to my physical body and individual cells. IM HERE IM LOOKING AFTER YOU.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


According to Jains all living things have a soul. The life you live now determines the life you will live in your next lifetime. The soul is always reborn, but when you learn to devoid of all Karmas and desires then your soul becomes God and you are no longer reborn. At this state the fully developed consciousness of a person acquires complete knowledge and becomes blithesome and supreme. Jains do not believe in God as a creator or nurturer. To them a God who is considered a creator or nurturer would be endowed with desires, and such an entity cannot attain complete perfection. To them there is four states of consciousness- human, superhuman, subhuman (animals), and hellish. They also believe all matter in the universe has always been here, everything continues to change form. I'm not saying I 100% agree with the religion. I wanted to share what I learned from reading the religion.

ladybug121
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

According to Jains all living things have a soul. The life you live now determines the life you will live in your next lifetime. The soul is always reborn, but when you learn to devoid of all Karmas and desires then your soul becomes God and you are no longer reborn. At this state the fully developed consciousness of a person acquires complete knowledge and becomes blithesome and supreme. Jains do not believe in God as a creator or nurturer. To them a God who is considered a creator or nurturer would be endowed with desires, and such an entity cannot attain complete perfection. To them there is four states of consciousness- human, superhuman, subhuman (animals), and hellish. They also believe all matter in the universe has always been here, everything continues to change form. I'm not saying I 100% agree with the religion. I wanted to share what I learned from reading the religion.

edit on 23-12-2013 by ladybug121 because: (no reason given)

Perfection in itself is a desire. One cannot be perfect until they no longer desire perfection. As long as you wish to attain perfection, you will be forever imperfect. Perfection is merely a shade of greed, of malcontent and dissatisfaction. Right up there with immortality and omniscience. Perfection is a terrible thing to want.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


The more I read of your posts, vet, (this one and the following one prompted me to chime in here) the more I find sense and connected dots.
I'm with ya.
FWIW,
~wild

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Jainists are often referred to as atheists. but they believe if you take God out of religion, then people will feel they have nothing to pray to. There point is not to become God or worship a God. The point really is to be Non violent, live a peaceful life and be good to ALL living things..... I also read in another book that compared God to electricity lol. Without electricity virtually nothing can exists, for electricity at the cell level causes a vibration to emanate, exist, or be contained within the center of a cell. That electricity can go through all living things, animals, insects, even planets. Whatever God may be maybe one day we will understand. A teacher once told me, religion is here because we need something to believe in to help us move forward. But i also like the religions that worship the Sun, moon, etc because yes no life on earth would exist without those things. I've been on ATS for a long time, and this is my first time actually writing, I just wanted to share with someone what I've been reading because most people these days just don't care unless it's on Facebook. Thanks for reading and responding. have a great CHRISTmas lol.

reply to post by ladybug121


You have given me something I want to look into. You have been heard. You should stop in more often.

reply to post by Murgatroid


Interesting conclusion.

Some say Satan made religion when he tricked humanity into eating the fruit of KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL.

Back then humans didn't judge each other and they definitely weren't abusing each other with a holier-than-thou, "I am better than you" attitude.

kisskiss
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

god is also sadistic made us to want to sleep together and then invented snoring! lol

Not only that but mess caused 'clean sheets to the orgasm wind!' (pretty sure Kleenex was invented for this handy purpose).