Intelligent Design is a self evident truth

Great thread and well thought out and written OP!

I haven't yet read the thread in entirety but I have seen the occasional word such as "fact" or "proof" used on either side of the argument.

Science knows so little about anything. At last count did we not know only about 5% of what the we, and the universe are composed of (i.e. we can identify about 5% of matter)? I do stand to be corrected on this......

Given this then surely more is unknown than known....

Why could intelligent design not have occurred, and why could evolution also not be occurring along with it? Both could quite easily go hand in hand as far as I am concerned.

I agree that the current knowledge base provides more support against Intelligent Design than for Intelligent Design, but I would be very surprised if anyone wants to spout words along the lines of "the fact is that Intelligent Design does not occur" or "this is proof......". The more I read the more I see the pendulum starting to swing a little towards Intelligent Design (who did the design I don't know!). Lets just hope that science itself, and the scientists, are willing to confront and consider new research and not ignore or condemn those that undertake it. Far too often people in science, for various reasons, build up rigid belief systems that are completely inflexible to change. I would be very surprised if at some point in my lifetime that "science" is not turned on its head by a completely wondrous discovery. One of those "the earth isn't flat" or "the universe doesn't revolve around earth" moments.

Best wishes.

reply to post by neoholographic


Not that I am against the idea of Intelligent Design (I have my own idea on that)...

How would you explain the Infinite Monkey Theorem?

en.wikipedia.org...

The infinite monkey theorem states that a monkey hitting keys at random on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will almost surely type a given text, such as the complete works of William Shakespeare.

I am not against intelligent design either. An infinite universe goes beyond what we could ever hope to conceive, although the universe does change depending simply on how you observe it.

“There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.
There is another theory which states that this has already happened.”
― Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

reply to post by Deaf Alien


Good question and I had someone mention this about a month ago. They used a computer instead of a typewriter. First off it wouldn't be a real monkey but random number generators. When they tried it with real monkeys they just banged and used the bathroom on the keyboards.

In this context, "almost surely" is a mathematical term with a precise meaning, and the "monkey" is not an actual monkey, but a metaphor for an abstract device that produces an endless random sequence of letters and symbols.

Not only did the monkeys produce nothing but five pages[11] consisting largely of the letter S, the lead male began by bashing the keyboard with a stone, and the monkeys continued by urinating and defecating on it.

en.wikipedia.org...

This was always a peculiar argument to me because they never explain who designed the typewriter or the computer. In order for the hypothetical monkey to type Shakespeare, intelligence would first have to invent a typewriter and give meaning to the sequence of letters used in a Shakespeare Sonnet.

Like I said, I think a lot of this comes down to Darwin coming up with a theory that allowed people to say we don't need God. When the instructions(DNA) were discovered it was to late to for people to accept that Darwin's theory was built on a very limited understanding. His theory had become like a holy Sacrament for atheist and materialist. So basic common sense became an enemy of the theory.

We have to squabble over things like what specified complexity or specified information means. I can look at a car and see specified information. I can look at a flat screen TV and see specified information. I can also look at the process of transcription and translation and see specified information. Watching a video on gene regulation is like listening to a Foreman at a Ford Auto Plant describe what's going on in the factory. Just look at this video on Gene Regulation:



Watch how the transcription factor searches the DNA for it's binding site. This is the DNA sequence it recognizes. That like if I write:

gghhTHEjkkkkGUYgzzONzyyTHEvhhCORNER

A transcription factor scan the letters and recognizes the sentence THE GUY ON THE CORNER. Why does that sequence of letters have meaning? The sequence has meaning because intelligence gave it meaning. The machinery then scans for these sequences and we call these things instructions. What's a transcription factor?

In molecular biology and genetics, a transcription factor (sometimes called a sequence-specific DNA-binding factor) is a protein that binds to specific DNA sequences, thereby controlling the flow (or transcription) of genetic information from DNA to mRNA.

en.wikipedia.org...

Here's one more video to check out where he goes into more detail.



Like I said earlier, this is self evident intelligent design. It's just common sense but Darwin followers tell us, it just looks that way. It walks like a duck and quacks like a duck but we're supposed to believe it's just a rock.

It is self evident that their is 'intelligence' within in the cosmos, however this may be an emergent property.
So,
it is not self evident that their is an intelligent designer.
It is self evident that there are self organizing systems, that complexify through 'evolutionary' means.

I am aware of innate, un manifested properties that allow this to occur. (see cosmological constants etc)
Perhaps these properties can be described as God.

reply to post by neoholographic

It walks like a duck and quacks like a duck but we're supposed to believe it's just a rock.

No, you just have to stop whining because it is obviously a goose.

reply to post by neoholographic


Thanks Neo for answering my question. So, basically, what happened here is this:

Darwin misinterpreted what he saw! That is, instead of the intelligent design in nature, specifically in living things, he mistook these as proof of evolution.

That the changes he saw (in the creatures he observed) are EXPECTED change due to inherent coding within their DNA.

That is, that within each type of species they are allowed to have VARIETIES but up to a certain degree as allowed by (pre-programed) genetic boundary.

Thus a rodent can't turn into a horse, vice versa, etc because each species is a unique creation - intelligently designed to propagate within their kind and produce VARIETIES within their kind.

sulaw
reply to post by neoholographic

 

Be prepared to defend. Don't give up and never surrender.

Good luck to you sir and god speed...

And just to stay on topic, my belief doesn't matter, because it's self evident

And therein lies the problem with belief summarised in that short sentence "Don't give up and never surrender."

edmc^2
reply to post by neoholographic

 

Thanks Neo for answering my question. So, basically, what happened here is this:

Darwin misinterpreted what he saw! That is, instead of the intelligent design in nature, specifically in living things, he mistook these as proof of evolution.

That the changes he saw (in the creatures he observed) are EXPECTED change due to inherent coding within their DNA.

That is, that within each type of species they are allowed to have VARIETIES but up to a certain degree as allowed by (pre-programed) genetic boundary.

Thus a rodent can't turn into a horse, vice versa, etc because each species is a unique creation - intelligently designed to propagate within their kind and produce VARIETIES within their kind.

I think you could do well to learn the basics of biology before you make ludicrous comments like that.
2+2 does not equal potato.

From my perspective use of the word "Intelligent" in intelligent design is extremely flawed as are we and all other plants and animals too.

Seems more like a Friday afternoon job rather than a creation from some perfect deity.

I mean, it's a basic tenet that you always do the best you can and if this is the best then by default it means "he" is not perfect.
Or was "he" just having a practice with us and there are better forms of us elsewhere, a version 2 if you will?

th3dudeabides
reply to post by neoholographic

 

This also applies to DNA. The genetic code is a clear example of intelligent design.

This doesn't necessitate an all powerful god figure. That's too big of a leap. An engineer can also make complex DNA strands.

like the ones in prometheus? gotta prove it either way.

reply to post by edmc^2

Darwin misinterpreted what he saw! That is, instead of the intelligent design in nature, specifically in living things, he mistook these as proof of evolution.

Completely backwards, of course. You have mistaken this imperfect hodgepodge of evolution as proof of a perfect creator. If the world is created, why is there evil, eh? Is your creator evil?

DJW001
reply to post by OneManArmy

 

Fractals, and the golden ratio and golden geometry is prevalent in nature, it also suggests "design", not random patterns.

Nice try, but constrained growth is not the same thing as design.

Universal constants are "law" and law by definition is the opposite of chaos.
The universe is ruled by many laws. Constrained growth isnt the same as universal constants.
But constrained growth can very easily equal design.
If everything was random then there would be no order at all. Let alone coherence in species or atoms and molecules or anything else.
Randomness is a small variable that brings subtle changes to everything constrained by the universal laws.

DJW001
reply to post by edmc^2

 

Darwin misinterpreted what he saw! That is, instead of the intelligent design in nature, specifically in living things, he mistook these as proof of evolution.

Completely backwards, of course. You have mistaken this imperfect hodgepodge of evolution as proof of a perfect creator. If the world is created, why is there evil, eh? Is your creator evil?

The creator is in balance. Evil is necessary to counter good. God is neither good nor evil.
Without evil how would we recognise good?
How do we learn empathy without bad things happening to us?
How do we learn to be good people without seeing all the evil and injustice in the world?

Its a "necessary evil". Ying and yang, positive and negative, matter and anti matter.

Pardon?

edmc^2
reply to post by neoholographic

 

Thanks Neo for answering my question. So, basically, what happened here is this:

Darwin misinterpreted what he saw! That is, instead of the intelligent design in nature, specifically in living things, he mistook these as proof of evolution.

That the changes he saw (in the creatures he observed) are EXPECTED change due to inherent coding within their DNA.

That is, that within each type of species they are allowed to have VARIETIES but up to a certain degree as allowed by (pre-programed) genetic boundary.

Thus a rodent can't turn into a horse, vice versa, etc because each species is a unique creation - intelligently designed to propagate within their kind and produce VARIETIES within their kind.

I think you could do well to learn the basics of biology before you make ludicrous comments like that.
2+2 does not equal potato.

From my perspective use of the word "Intelligent" in intelligent design is extremely flawed as are we and all other plants and animals too.

Seems more like a Friday afternoon job rather than a creation from some perfect deity.

I mean, it's a basic tenet that you always do the best you can and if this is the best then by default it means "he" is not perfect.
Or was "he" just having a practice with us and there are better forms of us elsewhere, a version 2 if you will?

The bible says that WE are the version 2. The angels were version 1.
But hey thats what the bible says. And its words have been used to justify all sorts of crazyness.

DJW001
reply to post by edmc^2

 

Darwin misinterpreted what he saw! That is, instead of the intelligent design in nature, specifically in living things, he mistook these as proof of evolution.

Completely backwards, of course. You have mistaken this imperfect hodgepodge of evolution as proof of a perfect creator. If the world is created, why is there evil, eh? Is your creator evil?

Ha! Glad that you mentioned imperfection because that's what actually happened.

Due to man's disobedience, sin or imperfection came into existence.

Man's organisms began to die off.

But alas, all of these imperfections will be done away with as promised by the Creator himself - in the near future.

I heard a loud voice speaking from the throne: “Now God's home is with people! He will live with them, and they shall be his people. God himself will be with them, and he will be their God. 4 He will wipe away all tears from their eyes. There will be no more death, no more grief or crying or pain. The old things have disappeared.” -- Rev 21:3,4 GNT

Hopefully there's enough time for you to change your mind.

reply to post by Pardon?


Well, sorry if you can't handle the truth.

Fact is, upon closer study, Darwin got it wrong. His conclusion is wrong. There was no evolution - but variety and adaptation.

Curious. By any chance you still subscribing to Darwinian Evolution?

If so why?

edmc^2

DJW001
reply to post by edmc^2

 

Darwin misinterpreted what he saw! That is, instead of the intelligent design in nature, specifically in living things, he mistook these as proof of evolution.

Completely backwards, of course. You have mistaken this imperfect hodgepodge of evolution as proof of a perfect creator. If the world is created, why is there evil, eh? Is your creator evil?

Ha! Glad that you mentioned imperfection because that's what actually happened.

Due to man's disobedience, sin or imperfection came into existence.

Man's organisms began to die off.

But alas, all of these imperfections will be done away with as promised by the Creator himself - in the near future.

I heard a loud voice speaking from the throne: “Now God's home is with people! He will live with them, and they shall be his people. God himself will be with them, and he will be their God. 4 He will wipe away all tears from their eyes. There will be no more death, no more grief or crying or pain. The old things have disappeared.” -- Rev 21:3,4 GNT

Hopefully there's enough time for you to change your mind.

I was under the impression that Lucifers fall from grace was long before man even existed.
So didnt evil come into existence with the overthrow of Lucifer and the fallen angels?

edmc^2
There was no evolution - but variety and adaptation.

How was he wrong when "variety and adaptation" is how he described evolution?

reply to post by EmpathicBandit


"whether divine or otherwise, a rational mind would be ignorant to not consider and accept the overwhelming plausibility of intelligent design".

Intelligent Design does not mean God made it. The OP just proved himself wrong when he mentioned Airplanes and other things he is amazed by. I will give you intelligent design but intelligent design does not mean God created it. End Theory.

reply to post by OneManArmy

I was under the impression that Lucifers fall from grace was long before man even existed. So didnt evil come into existence with the overthrow of Lucifer and the fallen angels?

Actually the scripture reveal to us that his (satan/lucifer's) fall began in the garden of Eden.

In the beginning, satan or Lucifer was a good angel. In fact he was a Cherub (a high ranking angel) and was given the task of taking care / guiding humans. But due to envy he turned against God, thereby MAKING himself into satan (Greek satanas - Resister)

Here's how the scripture tells us what happened to him -in a parallel course as that of the King of Tyre.

[Eze 28:13-15 NKJV] 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone [was] your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. 14 "You [were] the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You [were] perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

Jesus revealed him to us this way:

[Jhn 8:44 NIV] 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

In short he was created good but "did not hold to the truth".

And by enticing Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit - he became Satan (resister) the Devil (opposer).

He opposed God by making God a liar.

[Gen 3:2-5 NIV] 2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' " 4 "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

So evil, was not and is not from God but from disobedient angels and mankind.

[Deu 32:3-5 ASV] 3 For I will proclaim the name of Jehovah: Ascribe ye greatness unto our God. 4 The Rock, his work is perfect; For all his ways are justice: A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, Just and right is he.

5 They have dealt corruptly with him, [they are] not his children, [it is] their blemish; [They are] a perverse and crooked generation.