A Positive Look at Cops.

bigfatfurrytexan
A policeman is allowed to use force on you if you don't comply. Your recourse is to file a complaint later, and hope for the best. Because doing anything else can get you killed.

Its a point that has come up many time in this thread and on ATS.
The issue of accountability.

Perhaps somebody in the force could shed some light on accountability, not in theory (because I'm sure there are a lot of words written on paper somewhere about proper procedures), but in actual practise.

As starting point for that discussion, two reports:
Human Rights Watch.

Our investigation found that police brutality is persistent in all of these cities; that systems to deal with abuse have had similar failings in all the cities; and that, in each city examined, complainants face enormous barriers in seeking administrative punishment or criminal prosecution of officers who have committed human rights violations.
Despite claims to the contrary from city officials where abuses have become scandals in the media, efforts to make meaningful reforms have fallen short.
The barriers to accountability are remarkably similar from city to city.

law.uchicago

The data instead paint a picture of an institution with a deeply ingrained culture of denial that enables certain officers to operate with impunity..
The CPD goes to great lengths not to know about or address its “bad apples” and the harm that they inflict...

Only 19 of the 10,149 complaints led to a suspension of a week or more.

Only 1 of 3,837 charged illegal searches led to meaningful discipline.

Not a single charge of false arrest (planting drugs, guns, etc.) over this three-year period led to an incident of meaningful discipline.

reply to post by alfa1


Sure, if one is reactive then accountability is an issue.

But recourse cannot be had in many instances. A police officer is given an ability to determine a finality in a situation. The kid with the airsoft rifle that was shot by police is an example. Should that family file a complaint?

I think the suggestion that one can file a complaint as being adequate recourse to negative police interactions is ridiculous. But that IS our only recourse. During your interaction with an officer you must cower and surrender your rights, then hope you can argue for their return by filing a complaint and having your day in court.

That hasn't worked so well for me, personally. When that officer refused to check on my son at the bus stop (during a stop that, although I was arrested, ended up disappearing altogether from the records when I tried to follow up), the damage was done. Was it devastating? Not likely....but it stole the right I had to move unimpeded while trying to care for my children. While I cannot speak for how my son, who is 22, feels about this today, I can say that I take parenting very seriously and on that day I was let down by law enforcement to such an insane degree that I just would rather treat them like the plague. I certainly don't want to catch an otherwise "nice guy" on a "bad day" while "everyone makes mistakes....we're only human".

Several months ago, my dad disappeared from his house at 4:00-ish in the morning. My mom woke up around that time and found him gone. She searched everywhere in/outside, he was gone. His car was gone (as was his dog). Normally that wouldn't be a big deal, but dad suffered from bi-polar disorder and was on the high manic side at the time.
Mom called the police in the town she lived in, they couldn't do much, but she did ask them to alert the police in the town where I live because he might try to go there.

(My dad was about 5-10, 350lbs, full beard, huge arms and hands, and manic.)

At about 6:00am that morning, I was woken by loud knocking on my back door. I went to the door to find an officer with Captain's bars on his collar and a guy in camouflaged pants and a t-shirt there, camo-man introduced himself first as the Chief of Police, and then introduced his Captain in uniform, they asked me if Mr. XXX XXXXX was my dad, I said yes, then they asked me to come outside...I was rather nervous at this point. They brought me to my driveway and behind my truck was my dad's car, and there he was insdie, holding his little dog, doors locked. The officers said dad didn't want to get out for them so they wanted me to get him to unlock the doors.
I finally was able to get dad to open the driver's door and let the dog out to potty. The 2 officers slowly and calmly approached and introduced themselves to dad, telling him that they were just there to check on him and make sure he was ok, that lots of people were worried about him.
Dad felt more at ease with the out of uniform Chief, so they started talking. He told dad that they had to bring him to the hospital to be evaluated. Dad didn't want to and said no. The Chief asked me if I could get my dad to go; said I could drive him if that would make him feel better. Finally dad said yes.
Dad got out, and we all realized that he wet himself. Dad happened to have packed his car to run away so he had a change of clothes and the Chief said "why don't you take your dad inside and allow him to change so he doesn't have to feel embarrassed walking into the hospital".
While dad was changing, the officers asked me about my dad, what he did for a living, how many kids, etc... and how long have we been dealing with bi-polar episodes...
So dad was changed, dog secured, so we got into his car, and the officers gave us an escort to the hospital. They helped my dad out of the car, the Captain ran ahead and got a wheelchair but dad refused it, so they walked him into the ER....

That situation could've turned south really fast and my dad could've ended up being tazed or injured, but alas, the calm and very respectful actions of those two men, strangers, made the situation into something very heart-warming.

Dad just passed away a couple weeks ago; unexpectedly, in his sleep. Since those officers would periodically ask me about dad, I did send them an email regarding his death, and another thank-you for treating my dad with dignity, and the Chief responded with condolences and said they are there for me and to let them know if I need help with anything.

I'm thankful for them working in this town I live in.

I miss my dad.

Sounds like everyone here is tip-toeing around the real issue of "The Blue Wall" and "Code of Silence" within the police force. When the espirit-du-corp takes a back-seat to accountability, that is where the problem increases exponentially. This is the issue that makes the public feel powerless and "under-the-boot", which also spreads exponentially.

The officers are the only ones that can break that cycle, IMO....the public will respond in kind, but the Law Enforcement Community MUST lead the way....leading by example.

bigfatfurrytexan

neformore
As opposed to... the aggressive and condescending approach from the people claiming that ALL cops are bad?

Nef, i think it should be obvious to a thinker such as yourself that two wrongs do not make a right. Nor does one wrong justify another.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

So why do people who have had bad interactions with odd members of the Police decide that they are ALL bad?

No one has explained that. Everyone skirts the issue. So I'll ask it clearly again.

Do the actions of a very small minority of Police officers mean that the rest of them are bad as well?

Simple question.

reply to post by neformore

I think I answered that in my previous post. Likely we posted together and you missed it....

reply to post by Viesczy


I disagree with your statement. You are assuming he is willing to be a Super Hero of some sorts when yes it is a calling. It is a calling to become a soldier, a doctor, an officer of the law, and the list could go on forever. We make money doing what we love and what we are called to do. He is no super hero, but I would be willing to say off duty not making money he would be one of the first people in a bad situation or a house fire etc. That alone is enough to show that the individual is called to his purpose. The police officer that died in my town trying to prevent a death by the way was not on duty and only tried to talk the maniac down. He didn't get paid to die.

reply to post by neformore


Want a nice list?

Age 12 I asked a cop on the corner where a place was. Reponse I got was a finger pressed into my forehead and a "WTF do I look like to you?"

Age 16 I was sitting on a table in front of McDonalds waiting for my friend to get off his shift. Middle of the day. Cops creep by at two miles an hour, turn around and fly past at 50 miles an hour, turn around and again, stop in the middle of the road, flash their lights, fly straight at me and jump the sidewalk drive around the restaurant back to where I was stop their car and just stare at me for like a minute and a half then speed away.

Age 20, house robbed cops show up days later accuse me of a bunch of # for them being late and wrong.

Age 21, went to pick up my pistol permit after the cops sat on it for way longer than the guaranteed response time. Stopped in the lobby and told I didnt need one. Stopped after the first locked door and told I was "making their jobs harder" stopped on the second floor and told I was only going to get myself killed, told by the cop handing the permit over to me that they were about to shred it since it'd been sitting on his desk for two months. Woulda been nice to have gotten a call.

Intermixed throughout are classes with cops in attendance and EMT training and first responder training for years that introduced me to plenty of bad cop behavior that while not directed at me specifically was indicative of a systemic problem with PD's hiring assholes and psychopaths almost exclusively.

In my late twenties I reported a family member cop who was doing bad and illegal things. That caused a #storm that got me harassed at all hours of the day for months. I eventually moved away.

Maybe I'm just a magnet for psychos but everyone I've met in my life that wasnt a cop was a great person and every cop I've met, known, worked with or trained with has been a nut.

neformore

So why do people who have had bad interactions with odd members of the Police decide that they are ALL bad?

No one has explained that. Everyone skirts the issue. So I'll ask it clearly again.

I've explained it. It's the nature of the office. A bad anything else is nowhere near as destructive as a bad cop.

I'll post this again because apparently nobody reads it: The Rapist and the Cop It goes into personality and behavior profiles of police from academic and police sources essentially admitting outright that the ideal candidate, the sought after candidate, the typical cop on the street, is an insecure narcissistic bigot under an IQ cap.

That's why ALL cops are bad. Some may be less bad but by the very nature of the position they are ALL bad.

Here's something to think about. Cops just aren't just cops. That's their job BUT they have to live with it 24/7. They are people first. This goes back about 35 years. Dad was in the RCMP then. I came home from school one day and he was at the dining room table with his head in his hands weeping like a 5 year old girl. Mom told me to leave. She said he was that way because he had to scrape(Dad's words apparently) a child off of the highway. The shook me up. I hadn't seen my father cry before, or since for that matter. It's quite a thing seeing a 300lb man cry. Disturbing. My point? They do this job but it doesn't leave them when they are off the clock. It's with them ALL the time.

reply to post by intrepid


Then they shouldnt be doing it.

Cap them at 5 years then stick them in an office or something.

Police have markedly higher rates of depression, divorce, alcoholism, drug use, stress, domestic violence than non-police.

So obviously something is wrong with how they're operating.

I'm supposed to feel bad for or excuse a nut because his job makes him sad? I dont think so.

Sounds like politicians going to "rehab" to get out of their predicaments.

thisguyrighthere

neformore

So why do people who have had bad interactions with odd members of the Police decide that they are ALL bad?

No one has explained that. Everyone skirts the issue. So I'll ask it clearly again.

I've explained it. It's the nature of the office. A bad anything else is nowhere near as destructive as a bad cop.

I'll post this again because apparently nobody reads it: The Rapist and the Cop It goes into personality and behavior profiles of police from academic and police sources essentially admitting outright that the ideal candidate, the sought after candidate, the typical cop on the street, is an insecure narcissistic bigot under an IQ cap.

That's why ALL cops are bad. Some may be less bad but by the very nature of the position they are ALL bad.

...the number of rapes that happen on university campuses dwarf this on any scale. So we gonna start stoning students now?

Military rape - we had a 'few' highups get fired over that. Talk about a good'ol boy system... We had personal briefings from generals on this. Only to have the same brief a year later.

Your logic is flawed chicken little.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


Did you just call my father a "nut"?

reply to post by ChuckNasty


Students arent recruited for the same neanderthal traits cops are. Read the reports.

neformore

bigfatfurrytexan

neformore
As opposed to... the aggressive and condescending approach from the people claiming that ALL cops are bad?

Nef, i think it should be obvious to a thinker such as yourself that two wrongs do not make a right. Nor does one wrong justify another.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

So why do people who have had bad interactions with odd members of the Police decide that they are ALL bad?

No one has explained that. Everyone skirts the issue. So I'll ask it clearly again.

Do the actions of a very small minority of Police officers mean that the rest of them are bad as well?

Simple question.

It doesn't. I thought I had explained it, but perhaps it wasn't clear.

Imagine a dog that gets abused by a human. That dog becomes skiddish. It projects its fears onto all humans. Same with people and cops.

A person with the authority to not just ruin your day, but to kill you....that is frightening. Its more frightening when you see stories like the kid with the airsoft rifle that was shot by cops. The kid didn't make a single move, and may have just not heard the instructions.

Humans are empathetic. When you see a story like that (and there are hundreds available to choose from) it can become very real for many people. Its the same as why folks in Laramie, WY had to have counseling after 9/11. They were very far removed from the occurance....but were still traumatized by their human emotional attachment via empathy.

Me personally? I have had cops do me quite wrong on more than one occasion. Including our local chief of police. So I have first hand experience, and it has taught me to avoid them at all costs. Even the chief was in on it, and I find the notion of filing a complaint to be completely laughable. When I tried to file a complaint, they showed no record of my arrest and didn't know what I was talking about. Since I was arrested wrongfully, this didn't shock me. But how do I get recourse?

A few months after that the officer walks up behind me in the grocery store and just stands there. His toes were on my heels. I turned around, startled, and when I saw him I froze. Typically, the offender would get a stern warning about acting like that. How do I give such a warning to a man who not only has the authority to concoct a reason for arrest, but also has the proven track record of not being very ethical? And if he has a department who will support him by covering it up? No less than 12 officers saw me in the booking room. I am kind of hard to forget, and somewhat well known in the area. Not a single one would corroborate to support an investigation.

In essence, we have people given the authority that includes killing you and are backed up by a corrupt system that enables officers. The "thin blue line" isn't fiction. In my perspective, the whole "us vs them" mentality starts with the police.

thisguyrighthere
That's why ALL cops are bad. Some may be less bad but by the very nature of the position they are ALL bad.

Have you been bad? Of course, you have. Does that make you a bad person? I don't think so.

I am more critical of myself than anyone I've ever met. Still, I don't consider myself to be a bad person.

That said ... never trust a cop ... not even one you think you know. Never call 911. Just ... don't ... do it.

And stop calling cops bad. There is a job to do. It gets done. You may not like the way it gets done. But, it has to be done. You want to fix the problem? Find a mayor that's going to dismiss the entire police force and arm everyone in town. Then ... I can call you an anarchist ... not just a guy who has done something bad in his life. Okay?

reply to post by intrepid


i know all Leo's are not bad. But your phrasing a officer for good intentions? and not good on actions? i really do not get it?
The drunk driver that killed my father had really good intentions on getting home with his family. does that make it ok that he took my father away?
I have noticed you have not said anything about the accident other then what happen to the officer? was others injured or died? TBO if the driver in a well protected leo car has been injured that bad. im sure the others thats not in such a protected car has passed as well and just not being told.

Krakatoa
Sounds like everyone here is tip-toeing around the real issue of "The Blue Wall" and "Code of Silence" within the police force. When the espirit-du-corp takes a back-seat to accountability, that is where the problem increases exponentially. This is the issue that makes the public feel powerless and "under-the-boot", which also spreads exponentially.

The officers are the only ones that can break that cycle, IMO....the public will respond in kind, but the Law Enforcement Community MUST lead the way....leading by example.

This is it exactly.

It is endemic enough to be the plot of a ton of movies.