Ancient Fossils invalidate Creationism

I am often thinking of things that support the old age of the earth as opposed to "young earth" creationism. One thing I heard of a few years ago seems to completely repudiate the whole young earth idea as soon as I'm concerned. I am from Washington state, which, as most people know, has a lot of cool, temperate forests, which get rained upon quite frequently. The climate here has been this way as long as people have been living here, and there have been native Americans in the area for hundreds or thousands of years. The northern latitude, proximity to the ocean, and mountain ranges create this climate zone and assumedly have been for a very long time.

Now the crux of my post is that fossils of tropical plants have been discovered here. For Washington to have naturally grown tropical plants the earth must have been much, much warmer and the landmasses probably would have had to have been differently positioned. It is impossible for this to have happened within the last 6 thousand years, because the earth had just come out of the last ice age a few thousand years earlier. Most likely, 6 thousand years ago, Washington still had remnants of the huge glaciers, as it was heavily covered with ice during the ice age.

So unless God made the earth tropical for a few years, and then created the ice age tropical plants could never have grown here in the last 6 thousand years.

www.seattlepi.com...

Where did you get 6 thousand years from...

Pat Robertson??

How does this effect the "watch maker" theory. Creative evolution?

Nobody believes the earth is six thousand years old (except maybe the J-dubs).

Those seven days in Genesis are not DAYS maybe they are epochs, celestial rotation periods, or a million years.

There was just too much history to fit into the parables of the Bible. The fact is mankind's mental faculties would not be able to hold the act of creation. Especially mankind at the time the stories were written down.

What is your personal opinion if I may ask?

Lucky spark in the primordial soup? Spontaneous life from nothing? Outside intervention?

Easy to knock a belief system when you don't have to provide an alternative

AbleEndangered
Where did you get 6 thousand years from...

Pat Robertson??

The 6 thousand year thing comes from a 17th centruy Bishop called James Ussher who sat down one day and added up all the ages of the characters mentioned in bible (those who begat those who bagat those who.. etc) and arrived at a figure of 4004 bc (as the starting date of Genesis). The evening of Sunday October 23rd 4004bc to be exact.

Yes, I'm serious.

ETA -

It's also worth noting that this view of the age of the universe was by the end of the 19th century largely discredited and disbelieved by even the church and biblical scholars. It's only recently, since the rise of fundamentalism and YEC in the 20th century that the idea has been revived.

What if the Earth was made how ever many thousands of years ago when Adam and Eve and the Garden all took place, and the rest of what we observe was created in its ancient state as if the back story?

The Silmarillion to the Lord of the Rings?

You mean the fossils and everything else were made to look millions of years old just for atmosphere?
Why would you even consider such a loony idea?

What is your personal opinion if I may ask?

I think things have always existed and things always will exist because non-existence is impossible. I also think the multiverse idea is a good way to explain how you could always have existence, but particular universes may come and go.

CB328
You mean the fossils and everything else were made to look millions of years old just for atmosphere?
Why would you even consider such a loony idea?

What is your personal opinion if I may ask?

I think things have always existed and things always will exist because non-existence is impossible. I also think the multiverse idea is a good way to explain how you could always have existence, but particular universes may come and go.

A little more complicated than that. I mean everything was intricately thought bought God, and so like a Silmarillion which is a lot of backstory to the Lord of the Rings, we can see what God thought His universe needed to look like, behave, etc.

But we're only living in the Lord of the Rings...the Silmarillion is not part of the creation except as His mind revealed through all the work.

I guess what I'm saying is the ancient history of the Universe isn't just window dressing, it is importantly linked to how the Universe works presently for us to live, and thrive.

If any one thing weren't how it was thought up, the whole damn clock wouldn't work.

[So unless God made the earth tropical for a few years, and then created the ice age tropical plants could never have grown here in the last 6 thousand years.quote] CB328


Ice age is a very good theory, It was on of the theories about the extinction of the dinosaurs but I have to question why it took Man 6000 years before he was capable of traveling? Look what we have accomplished in just the last 100 years. Too numerous to mention what we have accomplished in just the last 50 years. We went from cowboys and Indians to automobiles and jets then to the technology age in a short time.

I do not think the cavemen built the pyramids? I believe man was a lot more advanced than we have been taught. there is a lot of new findings and archeology is getting more popular. I think there is a lot more to history that we haven't discovered yet.

My point is... Any theory is good until its proven wrong. The truth is out there!

i have a question. for anyone.

what is it in the bible that makes certain christians think the world is so young. ive never heard that detail before, yet read tons of young earth discussion.

Bisman
i have a question. for anyone.

what is it in the bible that makes certain christians think the world is so young. ive never heard that detail before, yet read tons of young earth discussion.

The genealogy list. They assume that the list is complete and therefore represents the accurate age of the world. They disregard that the Bible itself gives no date of creation, no timeline of creation and it doesn't even mean it was when man was created.

The 6 days of creation were in Genesis 1

Genesis 2 then describes that mankind was also created.

RunForTheHills
[So unless God made the earth tropical for a few years, and then created the ice age tropical plants could never have grown here in the last 6 thousand years.quote] CB328


Ice age is a very good theory, It was on of the theories about the extinction of the dinosaurs but I have to question why it took Man 6000 years before he was capable of traveling? Look what we have accomplished in just the last 100 years. Too numerous to mention what we have accomplished in just the last 50 years. We went from cowboys and Indians to automobiles and jets then to the technology age in a short time.

I do not think the cavemen built the pyramids? I believe man was a lot more advanced than we have been taught. there is a lot of new findings and archeology is getting more popular. I think there is a lot more to history that we haven't discovered yet.

My point is... Any theory is good until its proven wrong. The truth is out there!

This is what I should name the "Fire paradox". Mankind needs fire to survive, needs clothes to survive, etc. etc., but we are supposed to presume that for most of human "evolution" we were too stupid to have these things.

Furthermore, any idiot can easily make fire and clothes for themselves. so to presume one generation would pass without fire having been discovered is just dumb.

reply to post by FreeMason

but we are supposed to presume that for most of human "evolution" we were too stupid to have these things.

Proto-humans were not human. We've been human for a very small part of our evolutionary history.

FreeMason

This is what I should name the "Fire paradox". Mankind needs fire to survive, needs clothes to survive, etc. etc., but we are supposed to presume that for most of human "evolution" we were too stupid to have these things.

Furthermore, any idiot can easily make fire and clothes for themselves. so to presume one generation would pass without fire having been discovered is just dumb.

Humans really don't need fire or clothing to survive.

Just food, water, and shelter.

An odd thought-

One 'year' on Earth is the time it takes Earth to orbit around the Sun, once.
One 'year' on Mars is the time it takes for Mars to orbit around the Sun, once.
One 'year' on Jupiter is the time it takes Jupiter to orbit around the Sun, once.

What is a 'year' to our Sun?

What is a 'year' to our galaxy?

What is a year in a 'book'?

God was a star. And created things.

That's about as close to it all you're going to get using god as a metaphor.

It really is like trying to use science to explain how santas sleigh flys. THe reindeer must obviously gallop at a set rate, giving them an aerodynamic lift when the arctic breeze is just right, causing the cold air to become denser than the light-weight materials used in the special sled, and viola. It gathers momentum and as it hits the updraft of each chimney as santa traverses the world, the warm air rising keeps it afloat.

Presto, chango - science explains santa and religion continues.

Scientists world wide cry...

Jesus also walked on water because he was drunk.

I dunno, it's another thread.. on religion.. and creationism.. I don't think I ever contribute to these. Consider this a prayer.

also 3 hours sleep is not my problem !

CB328
...there have been native Americans in the area for hundreds or thousands of years.

...It is impossible for this to have happened within the last 6 thousand years, because the earth had just come out of the last ice age a few thousand years earlier. Most likely, 6 thousand years ago, Washington still had remnants of the huge glaciers, as it was heavily covered with ice during the ice age.

So unless God made the earth tropical for a few years, and then created the ice age tropical plants could never have grown here in the last 6 thousand years.

You're really mixing your metaphors here.
Creationism and Evolutionary science are both looking at the same evidence, just interpreting it differently. That means the ENTIRE FRAMEWORK is different. ...so, you can't take an evolutionary time frame (ice age 10,000 years ago) and apply it to a creationist context. It doesn't work like that, because the entire interpretive frame of reference is shifted between the two theories.

Ultimately what this means is that you haven't invalidated anything - you've just shown that you've never actually researched creation science at all. ...and while yes, there are plenty of people out there that make the rest of us creationists look like idiots, there are also plenty of people far more qualified than you or I who believe these things logically, rationally, and with a valid scientific basis.

Ultimately what this means is that you haven't invalidated anything - you've just shown that you've never actually researched creation science at all. ...and while yes, there are plenty of people out there that make the rest of us creationists look like idiots, there are also plenty of people far more qualified than you or I who believe these things logically, rationally, and with a valid scientific basis.

Could you provide any information on this? All ive ever seen creationists produce are claims against evolution, but nothing to substantiate 'creation'.

At the very least it would help the discussion as it seems to have stagnated lately due to the lack of information provided by those claiming creation.

The Earth could be many billions of years old. This does not mean that creationism is wrong. The Bible does not say that the Earth is 6,000 years old. But this modern man is. God could have made life on this planet many times over if He wanted to.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth..."

This means that they were already created during the beginning of the universe, or sometime thereafter. So they were in place before God decided to put life on it.

Genesis 1:2 " But the Earth was without form (life) and void (desolate)..."

Sometime after the Earth formed there was a time, perhaps one of many times, where the Earth was rendered incapable of sustaining life.

Genesis 1:2 "...and darkness was upon the face of the deep (water world) and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters..."

The Earth existed and it was completely covered with water and surrounded and covered with thick clouds. No sunlight could get through.


To make it short. God clears away the clouds to allow sunlight to reach the surface of the earth and there was a first day. That day was the start of this later period of human existence. That period is 6,000 years.

There would be another world wide flood again that would nearly erase all life on the Earth. The Earth would once again be covered with water and under thick clouds of darkness. God let Noah survive and all that were with him. I would say that just prior to the Genesis of the Earth that on the other side of that destruction there was some world life that existed and thrived, probably until it rebelled against God and God destroyed it.

The fact that there are no ancient fossils of contemporary animals like giraffes, rabbits or humans invalidates creationism.

abecedarian
An odd thought-

One 'year' on Earth is the time it takes Earth to orbit around the Sun, once.
One 'year' on Mars is the time it takes for Mars to orbit around the Sun, once.
One 'year' on Jupiter is the time it takes Jupiter to orbit around the Sun, once.

What is a 'year' to our Sun?

What is a 'year' to our galaxy?

What is a year in a 'book'?

No, a "year" as interpreted is one revolution of the earth around the sun. When year is written in book it does not reference anything other than one earth year.