Ancient Confession Found: 'We Invented Jesus Christ'

reply to post by ltheghost


Interesting...so they thought by creating a figure so revolutionary in his representation of unconditional love and grace, that the masses would be turned into docile pacifists when confronted with the evils of their regime? On the contrary!

Unconditional love and grace as presented through Jesus Christ is in fact so violent of an act that it causes people to give up their own lives in pursuit of righteousness. Turning the other cheek is not an act of surrender. It is an act of total and aggressive warfare. It is cowardly to ignore, or run away when confronted with evil. It is courageous to stand and fight, even at the expense of your own life. It is righteous to fight evil not with evil but with love. Instead of fighting fire with fire, it fights fire with water. Love cannot be hurt. It only exposes the insanity and ego of evil. That is not simply regime change. That is transformation. A new paradigm...

Matthew 10:34-39

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


"If a scientist did this, he'd be out of work and in need of a career change. "
>>> actually he would be called a climatologist.

reply to post by whyamIhere


But you sell a lot more books by press releases stating that Jesus was completely fictional. First rule of carnival publicity/selling, get attention through outrageous statements or actions.

reply to post by superman2012


Yes there was, it was in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas actually.
Jesus was accused of pushing the child off the roof. The child dies, however when he does Jesus raises the child from the dead.

as far as Jesus solely being accused of the act, or inherently pushing him is not clear. either way they did not put the book into the bible

BO XIAN
reply to post by ltheghost

 

Unmitigated balderdash.

On a par with the claims by the UFO critters to have invented Jesus.

Former investigative journalist and former agnostic (or atheist, I forget) Lee Strobel's

THE CASE FOR THE REAL JESUS

can trash this new theory handily with half his brain and half his evidence tied behind his back.


The Case for the Real Jesus: A Journalist Investigates Current Attacks on the Identity of Christ Paperback


www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381280814&sr=8-1&keywords=Lee+Strobel+The+Case+For+the+Re al+Jesus


Wishful thinking on the part of those in rebellion against Almighty God is NOT the same as truth.

Wishful thinking on the part of those who wish to do their own thing . . . regardless of the implications or the consequences . . . is not the same thing as truth.

Wishful thinking pretending that one can plant cacti and harvest peaches . . . is not the same thing as truth.

Wishful thinking pretending that one can be one's own sufficient God . . . is not the same thing as reality or truth.

Slicker deceptions than this one are abroad in the land and worse looming in the wings . . . this one is absurd to the max.

It's funny that you used the word truth though out your post as a label for your religion. It doesn't matter how many times you use the word it still won't make you right.

I love how you make it sound as though anyone who doesn't believe what you do is bad or rebellious. Perhaps they are just better at recognizing lies than you are.

Religious teachings are nothing but wishful thinking.

I think this authors claims are not far from the truth.

FyreByrd

DeadSeraph
reply to post by ltheghost

 

Here we go again with Joseph Atwill's nonsense. I have spent far too much time looking into his claims and debunking them on ATS, and I have no interest in doing so again. What I have discovered is concrete proof that his claims are completely bogus, but no amount of evidence was good enough for his adherents, and they basically just plugged their ears and screamed as loud as they could no matter which facts were presented to them that effectively dismantled their claims.

Atwill is a snake oil salesman and nothing more. His goal is to sell books, not discuss the truth. All of his claims fall apart under the light of history (history which anyone can research if they are so inclined). The simple fact of the matter is that history indicates that Christ was a real person, and that people willingly went to their deaths in defence of their belief in Him. Nothing Atwill is claiming is "new". All of his claims have already been discussed in his books as well as on threads here at ATS, and I see nothing in the article that indicates he has any "new evidence". Just more of his tired claims that the romans invented Christianity because he says so.

History, logic, and reason all stand opposed to Joseph Atwill and his claims, and the only way it is possible to agree with his conclusions is to abandon all three in favor of Atwill's version of events. This is the textbook definition of confirmation bias, because a person has to want Jesus to be a fable to conclude that Atwill is anything other than a joke. He has basically completely reinvented history to suit his personal agenda. People capable of critical thinking would dismiss him outright because of this, but because he attacks religion people buy his books and parrot his nonsense. If a scientist did this, he'd be out of work and in need of a career change.

Sources please. And Facts. Not even a link to your "debunking on ATS" threads. Come on give us a break, those that haven't heard of Atwill's work. Why is 'his analysis' of the facts and less credible then others?

I'd like to look into this a bit more but blanket "I know" statements without references in support don't help anyone.

Don't you just love it when people hit reply and rage about sources after reading the first page? Read the thread. There are LOTS of sources. Do a google search if you don't like mine. Read the thread. You might learn something.

Do you have the same skepticism about Atwill and his claims? Does he need to provide you with sources and facts too? Because if so, you're out of luck. All the sources and FACTS are opposed to Atwill.

Edit for sources:

Since a large number of people can't be bothered to read the thread, Here are two very good critiques (written by actual scholars) of Atwill's material. The one rebuttal is written by a scholar who is neutral on the issue of Christ's historicity, and the other is authored by a scholar who doesn't actually believe that Jesus existed, but points out the obvious flaws in Atwill's theory anyways.

Link 1

link 2

It would seem the first link has actually been updated as of yesterday, and has even more criticisms and presents even more facts and pokes even more holes in Atwill's theory. But like anything on ATS, when an outlandish claim like this is made, some people will believe it no matter what evidence is presented to counter it. Go ahead. Criticize my sources. They are scholars with credentials. Atwill isn't.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


History is something that develops through the ages. I think this guy's theory is ridiculous and I'm not even a Christian.

Try doing something like this today: Just make up a story and say that it happened a thousand years ago and put in texts, etc. There's just no way people would bite and accept it.

Don't assume that everyone who lived back then was gullible and stupid. There have always been bright and progressive people throughout history. I highly doubt everyone took a false story hook, line and sinker.

Think about what this guy is saying.

You can't invent history out of thin air. I was just in Turkey and saw where one of the apostles was buried.

DrReco
reply to post by ltheghost

 

Unconditional love and grace as presented through Jesus Christ is in fact so violent of an act that it causes people to give up their own lives in pursuit of righteousness.

And is this violent act of "courage" exclusive to persecuted Christians? After all, history is full of examples of minorities giving up their lives for their respective ideals. This includes "heathen" like gnostics (which is probably what these persecuted Christians were in the first place), gays, racial minorities, atheists, occultists and pagans of all kinds. I mean, even I would give up my life for certain "righteous" principles.

I guess my point is you don't really need a messianic idol to defend your "truth"

reply to post by MRuss


Um take a look at the Mormon church.

"Hey guys, I found some tablets in the woods given to me by an angel. I put them in a hat and wore special glasses to translate them..."

People believed, and still believe Joseph Smith.

The fact that some people will deny the miracles in the bible and deny a virgin birth yet openly accept theories pertaining to Evolution and the Universe tells me all I need to know.

These are essentially the SAME THING.

Taking the word of someone who "studies" something and uses the "scientific" method to prove his own hypothesis works with many many things.

When it comes to things that are simply unknowable without some connection with a supreme intelligence or lack thereof. Saying that we know in one way or another regardless of what side you stand on is absolutely ridiculous. There will always be he said-she saids on both sides. Whatever you are looking to prove on either side will be found by those who are looking to find it.

We live in a world where countless people attempt to prove or disprove things. Know or un-know stuff but realize.
We all "THINK" a lot. TO say that you or ANYONE knows anything is asinine. We may know something "relative" to the world we live in. But to assume that the same stands true regardless of where you are in the milky way or any galaxy within the universe. Is to assume that you are in the know on knowledge of things that no human can ever know the "ABSOLUTE" truth of.

Yahesh'ua-The spirit that is within (JESUS) as many of you keep calling. Is REAL. I have personally felt it in what was one of the most bizarre moments of my entire life and completely changed my life (My life was already in limbo during this)

I could personally care less if you believe me. You don't have to. What we are all missing here in our internet forum style is that THINK WHATEVER YOU WANT! Some will, Some won't, So What.

In my opinion a fact would be. There is most definitely a God or some sort of supreme being. Why do some of you get off so hard on saying no? What's the danger? Real Christianity would be an understanding of the father through your own personal relationship with the Son. No cult. No nothing. Many of the stories may be true or they may not be. To sit and argue over the finite details is ridiculous.

To say you know-EITHER way is ridiculous.
I believe through my knowledge that I have finally developed some sort of an understanding.
We wonder why the world is so screwed up and we see how leaders at the national/international level force stuff on us and tell us we are wrong and they are right. Yet we do it at this level to each other? Divide and Conquer is still alive.

And yes to anyone who believes. A part of believing is realizing that God IS GOD. He is both Good and Evil.
He is all the bad stuff and all the good stuff. This is how it is. Matter and anti-matter. One cannot exist without the other and together they give us an understanding of the whole.

God is EVERYTHING. Gaining One's Definition is between you and itself. Don't force. Don't mock. Let everyone be.

I do agree with C.S. Lewis though. Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important.

True Christianity has rarely if ever been seen on this planet. It would be the highest level of civility mixed with the highest qualities of life. Unfortunate for us..that men are not angels.


Not how you want to look at it but it is what it is.

Shalom.

“The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos

Khaleesi
As a side note, I have a question for those that do not believe in Jesus. Do you believe in Mohammed? Why or why not? If you do not, what do Muslims say to you when you tell them Mohammed wasn't real? Are you as willing to dismiss Mohammed to Muslims? Why or why not?

For one, it's a lot harder to cover up conquering.

Nobody's going to dispute Gaius Julius Caesar, for instance. You can go to Rome and stand next to his funeral pyre.

Atwill's claims do seem dubious however, postulating an even more unusual and unsupported hypothesis of its own.

MRuss
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

History is something that develops through the ages. I think this guy's theory is ridiculous and I'm not even a Christian.

Try doing something like this today: Just make up a story and say that it happened a thousand years ago and put in texts, etc. There's just no way people would bite and accept it.

Don't assume that everyone who lived back then was gullible and stupid. There have always been bright and progressive people throughout history. I highly doubt everyone took a false story hook, line and sinker.

Might that explain why there were still Jews, even back then?

(or more likely their idea of a useful Messiah was actual physical and political liberation from Rome, not somebody who fought the law, and the law won)

Think about what this guy is saying.

You can't invent history out of thin air. I was just in Turkey and saw where one of the apostles was buried.

edit on 10-10-2013 by MRuss because: (no reason given)

The existence of Christianity as a movement and phenomenon is obvious and undeniable

akushla99
...did Heston as Moses outdo Moses?...neither are still alive...

Å99

If Charlton Heston was buried holding a gun, just maybe... but not likely.

"Many are called but few are chosen."
~ Jesus

MRuss
I was just in Turkey and saw where one of the apostles was buried.

edit on 10-10-2013 by MRuss because: (no reason given)

It's allegedly the tomb of St. John the Apostle, the one who wrote Revelations. However, nobody is buried there. Either its a fake site or if you believe catholic/Christian historians John never had a body to be buried anywhere because he supposedly ascended directly to heaven like Jesus. Either way, a tomb with no body or relics doesn't hold a lot of water. I'd dare say it's as close to inventing history out of thin air as you can get.

reply to post by DeadSeraph

Scholars who publish their work on blogs instead of scientific publication?! Are you being serious? Their criticism is not any more valid then Atwill's work.

To topic, there is too much coincidence between Jesus and Krishna, that is clear where was origin of story. Absence of evidence of existence of real Jesus just adds to those who believe that it is the same person, and it would not be first or last story that was borrowed from other religions.

There is good ground for discussion, but this is kind of pointless because many extreme see any kind of work in this area as an attack. Don't get me wrong, it is not just Cristian about Jesus - it is the same with other religions if you ask 'unwanted' questions...

Why idea that Romans invented Christianity to be able to easier to control masses and to have counter religion to already established Jewish religion is wrong? Why were Jews worried of their depiction in Mel Gibson's Passion of the Christ? Care to explain?

reply to post by SuperFrog


Are YOU serious? Both of those scholars have published peer reviewed papers. Atwill doesn't. Give your head a shake. What are these two gentlemen supposed to do? Write a whole paper on why Atwill is wrong and submit it for peer review when Atwill himself never bothered to go through the same process? Give me a break. Apparently a PR blurb about Atwill's new book and seminar is good enough for you but the words of published scholars aren't because they were posted on their own websites/blogs. Double standards much?

Edit to add: Did you even READ the criticisms? Do you have any comments to add on their actual content or is it just "Atwill is right cuz Jesus sucks"?

reply to post by Spectral Norm

First of all, what exactly are the credentials of Mr. Atwill with regard to the history and literature of that region and period? I spend a considerable amount of time reading peer-reviewed literature in this area and do not recall seeing his name anywhere.

JOSEPH ATWILL
author of "Caesar's Messiah"
VISIT JOSEPH ATWILL'S BLOG
As a youth in Japan Atwill attended a Jesuit military academy, where most of his school day was spent studying Greek, Latin, and the Bible. In later years, he continued studying hundreds of books on the origins of Christianity, including the Dead Sea Scrolls. Recently he wrote a paper with Robert Eisenman on the dating of the Scrolls. Atwill's book Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus was published by Ulysses Press in 2006, becoming a best-selling work of religious history in the US in 2007. Its German translation has also achieved No. 1 Best Seller status.

www.covertmessiah.com...

reply to post by adjensen


Sometimes it seems as though some sorts of perspectives turn their brains off before posting on such threads.

I usually don't bother much with them.

This claim was sooooooooooo off the wall outrageous . . . I made an exception.

And, I was happy to discover Dr Gary H from another poster. There's a lot of good documentation linked to this thread. Of course, those most in need of it likely won't even glance at it . . . given biases set in concrete and fossilized.

Thx for your significant contributions.

It still boggles my mind to read some of the absolutely off the wall claims by such a huge percentage of those on the other side. I don't know why I thought better of such naysayers, but I guess I did. Silly me.

reply to post by wildtimes


Hilarious. I have studied a lot of the bible too. Doesn't mean I have a degree in theology. Atwill has no real credentials. Don't try to peddle falsehoods.

reply to post by DeadSeraph

Dude! All I did was c/p the guy's description from the site that is promoting this seminar!





I ALSO (have already posted that I) looked up info on Kenneth Humphreys, Robert Eisenman, and Joseph Atwill....and addressed their 'credential's.

If it's not good enough for ya, well...then. Okay. What am I supposed to say?

Have a great weekend.