Principal lets Gideon's group give bibles to elementary students!

buster2010
How many wars and killings are done over religion as compared to wars and killings over science.

Maybe you're forgetting that science gave us the guillotine and the AK-47. Perhaps in many instances religion provided the motivation, but science has always provided (and continues to provide) the most effective means for conducting warfare. In fact, warfare can be considered the impetus of many of our most important scientific discoveries and applications.

Consider that before exalting science above religion as a superior philosophical path. They are both used for good in the hands of the good. And they are both used for evil in the hands of the evil.

AbleEndangered

Was this pic taken on a Saturday or Sunday?

Light is off in adjacent classroom. Floors look squeaky clean, no traffic or gum wrappers..

Clock says 11:30, and in most schools someone is moving down the hall at 11:30am...

Waxed floors...

Not one scuff mark or grain of sand!

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


You just took the words out of my mouth, I am sure that if this religious books were the Quran the posts in this thread will be dancing to a different tune.

How interesting to see that people like to forget how our constitution works when it comes to separation of religion but only when it serve a purpose, like other religious books beside the bible.

Pity.

marg6043
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

You just took the words out of my mouth, I am sure that if this religious books were the Quran the posts in this thread will be dancing to a different tune.

How interesting to see that people like to forget how our constitution works when it comes to separation of religion but only when it serve a purpose, like other religious books beside the bible.

Pity.

With so little information how do you know you are presenting an informed position on this? Do we know if the principal has denied or allowed other groups to post their literature? Do we know if school was actually in session (as pointed out, the school looks very....empty)? We know little in terms of the actual circumstances here in this thread and yet we are all proclaiming some high ground stance as if it has somehow justified our positions.

Schools, while receiving Federal funding, are still bound by their local school boards, cities and States. While the First Amendment surely does define that Government itself will not establish a religion, somehow equating this to anything and everything that the Federal Government might have its tentacles in, is stretching the concept to fit a specific goal and denying the free people of the states their 9th and 10th Amendment Rights.

reply to post by AbleEndangered


These photos were taken today during 5th grade lunch.

reply to post by BattleStarGal


Alright. After researching Kentucky schools and the Gideon's I have come believe that this post has to do with the on going battle between the ACLU and the Gideon's -- meaning to me, it is propaganda. That isn't to say I wont still view it objectively as I have, just seems coincidental that this post comes up and there is an on going battle regarding it.

Your photos have no meta-data to confirm what you have stated and while I generally hold people trustworthy, this is the Internet after all and I am a French model.

I seem to recall that school buildings are often used for community functions. Like Red Cross shelters, locations for public debate between local politicians, "City Hall" style lectures with elected officials, location (building and grounds) for mock disasters and plethora of other things including a meeting house for community groups.

Personally, I would be more concerned over a teacher that doesn't know the difference between school being in session and not. But as far as religious texts go, they are allowed to be in the building even while school is in session and even used in lessons to discuss the tenants of that religion so long as done as comparative.

Basically so long as the religion itself is not being practiced, anything goes. How else do you think it is legal to both distribute and explain how to use condoms despite it countermanding the Catholic faith?

The government is not allowed to promote any religion, it's clearly unconstitutional, but of course conservatives don't actually care about the constitution- they just like to whine about it.

CB328
The government is not allowed to promote any religion, it's clearly unconstitutional, but of course conservatives don't actually care about the constitution- they just like to whine about it.

What government is promoting religion in this case? Will you respond or just do your normal one-hit wonders and run?

reply to post by ownbestenemy

In one of the leading federal court decisions on this topic, Berger v. Rensselaer Central Sch. Corp., 982 F.2d 1160 (7th Cir. 1993), the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals, which encompasses Wisconsin, Illinois and Indiana, held that classroom distribution of Gideon bibles to fifth-graders violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. In striking down the school district's policy permitting Gideons to distribute bibles at the schools, the court stated, “. . . the Gideon Bible is unabashedly Christian. In permitting distribution of ‘The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ’ along with limited excerpts from the Old Testament, the schools affront not only non-religious people but all those whose faiths, or lack of faith, does not encompass the New Testament.” It is significant that the U.S. Supreme Court let stand this decision, just as it let stand Tudor v. Board of Education of Rutherford, 14 J.N. 31 (1953), cert. denied 348 U.S. 816 (1954) four decades earlier. The law is clear.

Courts have almost unanimously agreed that distribution of bibles in elementary schools—either actively or passively—is unconstitutional because young elementary school children are considered too impressionable to make the distinction between private religious speech and school-sponsored speech.

www.leagle.com... Berger v. Rensselaer Central Sch. Corp.

reply to post by windword


Berger v. Rensselaer Central School Corporation, 982 F.2d 1160 (7th Cir. 1993) does not stand in this instance. Did anyone even bother to at least read the opinion?

First, this is a ruling (never challenged higher than; should be noted) by the Seventh Court of Appeals. In such, that appeals court acknowledged that the Supreme Court of the United States has not weighed in on this action.

In the above mentioned case, a representative of the Gideon's was allowed to enter a classroom and give a brief presentation. To this I agree that it violates the First Amendment but the accounted issue in the OP isn't the same as that of the case that people keep linking.

No representative was allowed to enter into the classroom and present a subjective view on religion to a captive audience. Instead, they asked permission to leave literature and that is all.

Small church groups in America apply and get permits and keys to public buildings, most the time fees apply.

The largest church in my city started in a public elementary school on Sundays.

So no possibility whatsoever this is one of those cases of weekend usage of public facilities??

reply to post by Chrisfishenstein

Force religion?? How is giving out free bibles forcing anything?? They aren't forcing parents to purchase one!

As another user pointed out right here, they are in fact breaking the law by doing this.

So says the lord

In a book written by men, then revised by different men, and added onto by other men still.

Not a prophet

So you won't accept anything from the Pentateuch? Not a single bit of your religious belief comes from the first five books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy)? Because they were written by a prophet named Moses.

not a monk

Martin Luther was a German monk. So, I guess any denomination of Christianity related to Lutheranism is inherently wrong.

not a child

There's a religion whose doctrine was written by a child? You have got to show me this one, because, quite frankly, I think you're just blowing smoke.

not a fat butt

The Buddha wasn't fat. He was rather thin, having spent some time as an ascetic monk and all.

not anything other than the lord

And a whole bunch of men. Don't forget the men, like John, Luke, Mark, and Matthew. And Moses, from above. Oh, and Martin Luther, who made his own translation. Or the King James version, you know, the one worked on by a score of translators under the guidance of James I.

~ Wandering Scribe

I would have taken a few of them.
A tip for all you campers etc they make great fire starters..

reply to post by ownbestenemy


Actually, on this... I don't really need more than what is supplied. The OP indicated from a first hand, direct witness perspective that he saw them being handed out to school kids.

I noticed in another part of the thread you dismissed the Rensselaer case as being relevant...and quite frankly, I'm surprised. I have read that decision...as it happens...and I found it extremely relevant. Almost overlapping, given the fact there is history in Kentucky, this is the same company doing it as was in that case and a quick look across news headlines shows they make a habit of it. However, in the Rensselaer case, there are specific findings that stand out for the decision.

Section 3 sums it up pretty well,

As a result, we must continue to view with suspicion governmental forays into religious activity, particularly in the context of public schools. The relationship between the Corporation and the Gideons cannot survive this scrutiny. Under the principles enunciated in Lemon and Lee, the distribution of Bibles in Indiana schools offends the First Amendment of the Constitution, and we are compelled to reverse the district court, 766 F.Supp. 696.

In section 22..to paraphrase a bit for space...

Defendant is also wrong as a matter of law that the First Amendment interest in free expression automatically trumps the First Amendment prohibition on state-sponsored religious activity. The reverse is true in the coercive context of public schools.

Section 25....

The First Amendment's mandate that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" applies to the states through the Fourteenth Amendment. Cantwell v. Connecticut, 310 U.S. 296, 303, 60 S.Ct. 900, 903, 84 L.Ed. 1213. Because the Rensselaer Central School Corporation acted with state authority in welcoming the Gideons into public schools, its actions are subject to the dictates of the First Amendment. Under the Establishment Clause, the government may not aid one religion, aid all religions or favor one religion over another. Everson v. Board of Education of Ewing Tp., 330 U.S. 1, 15, 67 S.Ct. 504, 511, 91 L.Ed. 711. As the Supreme Court said in Zorach v. Clauson:

and one last of a long list where many don't apply but some very much do. It takes quite a bit to read it all and several more apply than I have listed here for their specific points of finding. This is the last for space here though.

In Lee, the Supreme Court held that public school principals may not invite clergy to offer invocation and benediction prayers at formal graduation ceremonies for high schools and middle schools without offending the First Amendment. The Corporation's practice of assisting Gideons in distributing Bibles for non-pedagogical purposes is a far more glaring offense to First Amendment principles than a nonsectarian graduation prayer.

Source

As I have mentioned above...this is something I've dealt with personally, in direct issues in the local district. It wasn't a major deal but was clear for law as I saw it handled. The precedent is pretty clear and while it's very possibly open to more court action on similar cases around the nation, I don't think the Gideons or others like them will fare well on it if they stand and fight.

Another part of the decision notes they make a habit of not doing that and avoiding litigation when at all possible. It's pretty clear why, I believe. The letter and spirit of the law here flat doesn't support the distribution of religious material in school, during school hours while the kids are there by no choice of their own, as part of mandatory attendance.

Sounds like an oops here, and it also seems to happen all the time around the nation by headlines.

I do not really see a problem here, to be honest. Whilst not a believer myself i would never dispute the importance of the bible in that it helps to teach some important life lessons and outlooks. The literary material is presented to the kids. It is up to the parents on how to interpret those stories to the kids.

I have a daughter of similar age to elementary school level in the USA, they were all given bibles last year. I can't speak for the ones being discussed in this article but the one my daughter received was very much what would nowadays be described as "bible lite" - very short stories, lots of pictures, generally more pushing tolerance and respect for fellow man rather than bow down before your God type information.

However, i will add that thanks to Wrabbits comments above, i have got little alarm bells flashing off as well!

reply to post by BattleStarGal


Looks like your ignorant hate against religious is showing just a tad wee bit. :: rolls eyes :: I have no problem with any religious denomination (and that includes a religion I do not care for one bit, Islam) to give out their religious books. As long as it's 100% voluntary.

So deny ignorance and move on with your life.

ownbestenemy

leostokes
Is not that a violation of the Constitutional separation of church and state?

What would be the violation? On what grounds would you present to the courts of such a violation?

Well I am not a lawyer. When a senator (for example) is elected, he takes an oath to uphold the constitution, does he not? Is that not legally binding on elected officials?

Separation of church and state is a provision of our constitution.

Are you saying there are technical legal problems with this issue?

Wrabbit2000
Actually, on this... I don't really need more than what is supplied. The OP indicated from a first hand, direct witness perspective that he saw them being handed out to school kids.

To the contrary, we are supplied with an account (via pictures) that Bibles were laid out and not given or handed out.

I noticed in another part of the thread you dismissed the Rensselaer case as being relevant...and quite frankly, I'm surprised. I have read that decision...as it happens...and I found it extremely relevant. Almost overlapping, given the fact there is history in Kentucky, this is the same company doing it as was in that case and a quick look across news headlines shows they make a habit of it. However, in the Rensselaer case, there are specific findings that stand out for the decision.

As I have read it to, that is why I said that case doesn't have a stance here as it dealt with Gideon members entering a classroom and engaging with a captive audience while handing out books directly. You have to remember that when a court (appeals or Supreme) deal with First Amendment cases, they must apply a narrow reasoning as they did with Rensselaer. You will notice that I agreed with the ruling of Rensselaer in the application.

Section 3 sums it up pretty well...

Based on the following though...

While it is unquestionably true that there must be unbudgeted minutes in a school day, and that the short presentation by the Gideons did not necessarily replace other instruction, the important point is that the distribution occurred during regular school hours ordinarily reserved for teaching.

Given the scant information we have and nothing to cooberate other than the pictures given, it appears nothing was distributed and that is nearly the sole base of Rensselaer; the distribution of Bibles, within classrooms and a presentation regarding them.

In Lee, the Supreme Court held that public school principals may not invite clergy to offer invocation and benediction prayers at formal graduation ceremonies for high schools and middle schools without offending the First Amendment. The Corporation's practice of assisting Gideons in distributing Bibles for non-pedagogical purposes is a far more glaring offense to First Amendment principles than a nonsectarian graduation prayer.

Source

Did the principal invite the Gideon's or did they solicit the school?

The precedent is pretty clear and while it's very possibly open to more court action on similar cases around the nation, I don't think the Gideons or others like them will fare well on it if they stand and fight.

That is why the practice, as it appears, was modified to leaving the literature and no longer engaging in a presentation in the classroom. They have created a different scenario that Rensselaer does not cover. Given that and the narrow application, I will stand by my original statement that Rensselaer does not stand here.

I am glad you are here my furry friend.

NthOther

buster2010
How many wars and killings are done over religion as compared to wars and killings over science.

Maybe you're forgetting that science gave us the guillotine and the AK-47. Perhaps in many instances religion provided the motivation, but science has always provided (and continues to provide) the most effective means for conducting warfare. In fact, warfare can be considered the impetus of many of our most important scientific discoveries and applications.

Consider that before exalting science above religion as a superior philosophical path. They are both used for good in the hands of the good. And they are both used for evil in the hands of the evil.

Still took a man to pull the rope or squeeze the trigger. Every weapon has the same defect the user.