On the verge of leaving religion behind as "poison", but where does morality come from then?

reply to post by halfoldman


Why do you even make the connection? Religious "morality" isn't morality at all; it's a threat. In Christianity, for example, it's called "sin" and sin makes a person unfit for their god. They use the term "god-fearing" for a reason. Most religions enforce morality out of some sort of threat like this.

True morality comes from understanding human altruism and love. Love requires no gods to exist or be utilized. My wife and I are both "religious" but in neither of our religions do we believe in a "punishment" for doing anything wrong by any particular deities. Our daughter is aware of our beliefs but we teach her that morality (even that isn't really necessary since kids already have the concept initially) is part of being human. She follows her well-established moral compass because it feels bad to not do so, not because she's afraid of her eternal fate in a lake of fire with gnashing teeth.

OP, if you absolutely need a guiding light for your morality in the vacuum of a god, make it Love and Altruism.

I honestly cannot believe you have to ask that.

You cannot work out the difference between right and wrong and WHY it is right or wrong? You have relied on religion, all this time, even as a homosexual man living in South Africa, to lead you to know what makes something right and what makes something wrong?

You need to have someone explain it to you in terms a child would understand?

Oo

No offence man, but what the???

Do no harm. Give more than you take. Expect nothing for what you do for others.

how have people without religion or god, ever managed to exist with people who needed a book to know right from wrong...

Cuervo
Why do you even make the connection? Religious "morality" isn't morality at all; it's a threat. In Christianity, for example, it's called "sin" and sin makes a person unfit for their god. They use the term "god-fearing" for a reason. Most religions enforce morality out of some sort of threat like this.

This, exactly.

I am at a loss how it can be taken that existing without religion is existing without morals as only with god in your life can you know the right thing to do.

It's saddening

Like this picture.

To shortly clarify: I'm not stating that one cannot have morality without religion.

I was rather wondering how various people have dealt with it as such?

While some responses have been immensely helpful and beautiful, there's also very little one can do with words like "altruism", "love" or "do the right thing".

These imply that a morality already exists, that one should just somehow understand.
History teaches this is probably not so.

Morality is constantly under construction.
We are active players, even right now, as to how it is constructed.

Jesus says don't steal, not even a sweet.
But one day you find out the entire county was stolen by treaties that were never honored.

So now we have to live with that moral unsoundness.

And yes, especially in South Africa there is unsoundness and unfairness every day, although religion is big business.
The people who made apartheid are dead, yet we are moving forward into the past - eternally fighting apartheid.
It's ridiculous.

reply to post by halfoldman


I never learnt morality from religion. I learnt the opposite. I learnt ignorance, fear, persecution, arrogance and deceit.

So I guess I just happened to be lucky and my organic makeup somehow put the understanding that things that make me unhappy, make other people unhappy.

This is a bit like asking "well I've decided to giveup law. So how will I know when murder is wrong?"

if you're in such a position that you simply do not know what is right and need words written down by other men over history to advise you, the problem isnt with religion... it's far more intricately tied to something within you.

I mean, if someone thinks stealing food from a homeless person is not wrong and only never does it because the bible says it's wrong.. they're already broken beyond religion.

reply to post by winofiend

Well, maybe you're right and it is within me.

A historical milieu influenced that perhaps, and going from one extreme to the other.

Then also seeing the immorality of a world that imposed a certain state on us, and then just abandoned us.

It's not nice hearing that an entire province has collapsing hospitals, and women have to give birth on the pavement.

Doesn't really matter.

Great discussions, but so far there's still very little on actually teaching non-religious morality to children.

reply to post by halfoldman


99% of all human reasoning of good and bad came from a religious source.

Also, 99% of all human laws originated from a religious source.

Name 3 human morality that didn't come from a religious source and I'll eat a ghost pepper.



Edit. Religion was needed in our tribal days. Look at those recently discovered tribes - they all had a religious figure and followed a religious plan. Religious people will prosper as a community while the ones without won't. The ones without, pure speculation, died out because the strong ruled over the weak - they also saw the weak as slaves. They died out...no one wants their kids growing up like that, with no hope, no food, and being weak forever. We are no longer in our tribal days, but I sure as heck don't want to live in a Mad Max world.

Also, I favored living religious figures. They were the doers and showed us how we should live...they lived how they wanted us to live. I do not favor those people who said, 'So I talked to God today, this is what we need to do.'

Those people seem to be the ones who corrupted man and caused much death. Old testament is full of death. Koran - same and got worse when their leader died. Catholics - crusades was started with the similar statement of, 'God said this...'

reply to post by ChuckNasty

Brilliantly put.

I'm not sure of all religions, but 3 things might be:

1. Usury and the modern banking system.
2. Priests/Pastors as a separate career.
3. The Sunday-based weekend.

Not sure.
Great Post!

Religion is to Morality
What
A joke book is to humor.

There is some humor in joke books (until you heard it a million times before anyhow), but humor does not rely on any specific joke book

And the same with morality, in some books of morality, it can be found, but you do not need a book for personal morals and principles.

Find your own moral compass, don't rely on a book written by bronze age thinkers. Hell, read some Deepak Chopra if you require someone elses sense of morality to define your own...there has been a lot of good thinking in a couple thousand years that are far more advanced than any ancient holy book.

Just watch Oprah if push comes to shove...but really you should consider your own thoughts and philosophies on such things at the end of the day.

ChuckNasty
reply to post by halfoldman

 

99% of all human reasoning of good and bad came from a religious source.

Also, 99% of all human laws originated from a religious source.

Name 3 human morality that didn't come from a religious source and I'll eat a ghost pepper.

Edit. Religion was needed in our tribal days. Look at those recently discovered tribes - they all had a religious figure and followed a religious plan. Religious people will prosper as a community while the ones without won't. The ones without, pure speculation, died out because the strong ruled over the weak - they also saw the weak as slaves. They died out...no one wants their kids growing up like that, with no hope, no food, and being weak forever. We are no longer in our tribal days, but I sure as heck don't want to live in a Mad Max world.

Also, I favored living religious figures. They were the doers and showed us how we should live...they lived how they wanted us to live. I do not favor those people who said, 'So I talked to God today, this is what we need to do.'

Those people seem to be the ones who corrupted man and caused much death. Old testament is full of death. Koran - same and got worse when their leader died. Catholics - crusades was started with the similar statement of, 'God said this...'

edit on 14-9-2013 by ChuckNasty because: 2 cents above

Slavery is bad
Sleeping with children is bad
Drugs are bad.
Enjoy your pepper

Even as a Christian I disagree about your view on morality. You do not need religion to know what is good or bad. We just know. It's common sense. We are all born with it. We learn when people hurt us that is is not nice so most of us will not hurt others.

I also disagree with your definition of religion. To me it means the man made organisation built around a belief system usually to control believers. Even the Bible warns us of religion. Jesus despised it. I would never consider myself religious. I dont go to church as modern churches are not biblical. Even refering to someone as 'Father' (in a spiritual sense) is an abomination according to the Bible. We are all equal in the eyes of God.

I understand you not liking religion, neither do I. But your definition of religion is incorrect. It is a very very common mistake though.

I kept bumping into this problem as a young atheist, as extracts from my diary of the time would testify.
It seemed to me that rationalism did not lead the individual in any direction except amoral self-interest.
Kant came up with a "categorical imperative", which is only "do as you would be done by" translated into non-religious language, but I could not see that he offerred the individual any rational motive for taking notice of it.
I was actually a reasonably moral person, but this was really based on the residue of my Christian background. Rationalism did not give me any logical motivation to be moral.

I think that remains true.
Rationalism does not lead to morality.
Thise who offer "higher self" ideas are not being rational- they're just casting around desperately for a substitute for reigion which doesn't impose any inconvenient obligations to obedience.
I believe the existence of morality in society at large is actually based on the residue of religious background in society at large. The idea that this is genuine "morality without religion" is an illusion.
Once the religious background has passed, society would become much more amoral.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Why is slavery bad? What if their family owes me money. I should be allowed to force their children into servitude to repay my debt. There isn't even bad karma involved with that. Slavery is against a law, not human morality. If it wasn't against a law, we'd do it. We are limited by law and not a moral...

Religious books had rules on when a person can get-it-on. Why is it bad if their bodies are ready? Nature says it's good right? Heck, why can't I get it on with relatives. ...That one is sick, you got me there...just read the rules in certain books...that is some jacked stuff. A +1 towards the pepper. Really, the old scriptures are messed up in this area. Human morals DID step it up a bit and make it a law. Don't think Islam has a limit...will research more.

Drugs are bad? Only by definition AND law. Legal drugs and illegal drugs are a law and zero human morality. We allow certain drugs because they are legal. Is every legal drug good - heck no. Is every illegal drug bad - heck no. For a person to accept drugs are bad is due to a law and not morals.

2 more for the pepper. I'll even YouTube it.

greavsie1971
Even as a Christian I disagree about your view on morality. You do not need religion to know what is good or bad. We just know. It's common sense. We are all born with it. We learn when people hurt us that is is not nice so most of us will not hurt others.

Born with it? Holy crap, have you never seen your kid bully another kid over an action figure because they 'had to have it?'

Only when someone shows them the way, do they change.

We are not born with it - our parents beat it in to us and made it part of our subconscious. They did it so we'd survive.

spartacus699
I think it says.... "he who endureth til the end shall be saved". Quit dropping the ball dude, what other hope do you have? That some atheist will be able to explain away existence to you. Get real. Ya that sure will help a person sleep well at night having no hope at all. Even if you're a Christian life is going to be hard. It's designed to be hard, on everyone. That doesn't mean you give up your faith. It's on the one piece of information and insight that you have that actually is worth anything. Give that up and what do you got? Nothing. I think I've felt at times that God was either being too hard on me or wasn't listening at all, and maybe had forgotten about me. But I realized later that he maybe had to allow me to learn to tackle some problems on my own otherwise if he was always making life easy I'd never grow. But I think he's always there always watching and always listening to our prayers and our thoughts. But if you wanna go hang with the monkeys be my guest. lol ..Anyway that's my 2 cents

edit on 14-9-2013 by spartacus699 because: (no reason given)

I overlooked this great post earlier.

I think it addresses the toughness that some paths require.

At times religion can be made to sound very wishy-washy, but religion is a tough choice.

Especially "fundamentalism" originates from people who often lived tough and oppressed (never mind repressed) lives.

reply to post by halfoldman


You said words like "altruism", "love", and "doing the right thing" are not good answers because it assumes morality already exists.

So a better question would be "What is morality and how do we know?"

The answer to that question is compassion. How do we know this? Because as a social species the best way to survive is to be compassionate (helping each other out) so that more members of our species may survive.

murders, thieves, liars, violent individuals are nothing that promotes the well being of our species. Liars can be dangerous. The truth will help people to make better choices for survival.

ChuckNasty
Why is slavery bad? What if their family owes me money. I should be allowed to force their children into servitude to repay my debt. There isn't even bad karma involved with that. Slavery is against a law, not human morality. If it wasn't against a law, we'd do it. We are limited by law and not a moral...

I have no face when.

If law is the only thing that is keeping you from owning slaves, then perhaps HalfOldman has a point about requiring a book of laws to keep people from doing wrong.

Slavery offends me. It offends my sens of morality. And if *I* owe someone money, it is *I* that owes a debt. Not my children or my childrens children.

Forcing people into slavery for a debt owed?

Oh man... ABSURD.

reply to post by ChuckNasty


You have a very mucked up view of things.

I have always known right from wrong. I have not always acted in accordance with that knowledge, but I have known it.

Wether you have or not, is not invalidation of someone elses inherent moral compas.

If you needed 'good' to be beaten into you.. then you were liekly broken in the first place.

and as I've said all along, if someone is broken and needs a crutch.. whatever that crutch is, and in this case, religion... then all the best.

reply to post by winofiend


Not mucked up view, but a view that isn't mucked up by BS. I am against main stream religion that states what we need to do because they say so according to their interpretation...and give monies to the religion or you will be damned.

I am also against people who say, 'We don't need religion and that religion is what corrupts us.' Our root morals came from a religion. We know right from wrong because someone told us.

Our root laws also came from a religion.

For a human to deny any of this is totally absurd. If anyone is ignorant enough to think that we are born with right and wrong needs to take their heads out of their behinds and see the world for what it is.

We know slavery is wrong because we were told...but of course, since our morals are a birthright, we never had slavery. We also are born with treating others as we would want to be treated... We were told by loving parents that it was wrong...

I'll bet money that your lineage didn't come from atheists.

Edit. Since we ALL are born with right and wrong there is no injustice in the world? People have to be told what is right and wrong. Those people doing the telling are usually led by a nation/group that is based on a religious foundation.

Don't see many atheist feed the children movements...nor see many cloth the poor foundations. Those are usually left to the religious 'freaks' that people shun.

winofiend
reply to post by ChuckNasty

 

I have always known right from wrong. I have not always acted in accordance with that knowledge, but I have known it.

I'll call BS on that first part. To say Always implies forever have. Sooooo, you never got your behind smacked because you were doing something wrong? You always give money to those is real need? You never did a malice thing out of anger?

100% BS.