A Different Take On Christianity And Abortion

reply to post by beezzer


No it hasn't. The Christian argument on when life begins apparently exists, medical science states that up until a certain point in development a fetus is just living tissue, like your heart or skin... not a living being.

Pedophilia has centuries of documented harmful consequences.

I understand that there are certain cases where abortion is an option for some mothers, as in rape, and when the pregnancy is complicating the health of the mother.

However, I will never understand it. It actually makes me sick to think that it goes on, every day, as birth control. To think, of all the lives that are wiped out. To think of the human beings we lost, and what they could have done with their lives. Yes, some would have been bad, and not productive members of society. But, the vast majority would have been good, law abiding citizens of this world.

reply to post by sulaw

I would like to further expound on the first breathe. Even in the amniotic sac, the child/baby shares everything with the mother, right? Oxygen, food, literally feeding off the womans life force if you will. How is this not the same as breathing? If not say, the natural respirator in the female body that nurtures the child until he/she comes and takes there "own" first breathe of oxygen?

Because "breath" is intrinsically related to the lungs, and requires both inhalation and exhalation.

breath
An inhalation or exhalation of air from the lungs.
An exhalation of air by a person or animal that can be seen, smelled, or heard.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

"Nostriles" connect to the lungs, therefore, biblically speaking, first breath is connected to the lungs.

reply to post by Catacomb


Okay... but what does that have to do with the topic?

reply to post by windword


Great response!!!

"Biblically" speaking, how can you rebutle? I understand your points and from the standpoint you bring, I can say I agree.

However, scientifcially (I guess this is where the debate forms) Why does a "Heartbeat" not count? What seperates the 2? You can hear a heartbeat in the fetus (I hope I'm stating this correct I'm not a doctor ) Yet we define "Life" as the "First Breathe" biblically speaking of coarse.... Why does this not feel right, for me?

@ Kali, and Wind, what's the seperation between "living" tissue and "life" if tissue is living and forming is this not a form of life? Are we seperating "life" by a living conciousness? The "first breathe"?

Is sperm not living tissue? Same with the female egg? Sure both mixed creates "concious" life after 9months, but it's still "living" tissue, just not scientifically how we as human's label "life"....

I hope I said this right.... If I didn't let me know so I can better clarify~

reply to post by Kali74

The point of my reply is that Bible actually seems pretty clear on this leaving little room for personal interpretation. Humans aren't alive until they breathe and killing the unborn isn't a sin. So where did this abortion is against God argument come from AND...

Why are the ones who believe life begins at conception able to determine my choices when I don't believe that life begins at conception?

Again, your reading of the Bible may well differ from that of others. Moreover, it does no real good to argue it because hearts and minds are rarely turned based on such encounters. You simply have to agree to disagree.

As for having your choices on this subject under your opponent's control? So far as I am aware, abortion is still legal... even taking into account the various bends and twists applied by the states. On the flip, if you got to write the laws, they would have the same argument in return...

... we're never all going to agree on everything. That's part of the human condition... we're not programmed robots. Well, not yet, at least. 8+ billion human beings each as unique as their fingerprints.

reply to post by redoubt


Is your opposition to abortion based on what you interpret from the Bible?

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by redoubt

 

Is your opposition to abortion based on what you interpret from the Bible?

No.

My position on the subject is based on my personal views of human life. It also has connection to my opinion of personal responsibility.
This is not to say that I do not believe in God... but I don't think we had these brains installed to neglect them in favor of things that are subject to the many interpretations I mentioned earlier. So... one more time, my opinion is my own

reply to post by windword

"Nostriles" connect to the lungs, therefore, biblically speaking, first breath is connected to the lungs.

Not necessarily
Jeremiah 1:5

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

"If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." –Exodus 21:22-25

It is a crime to this day, if one murders the mother leading to the death of an unborn it is considered murdering two people,it is a crime, or if a mother does harm to an unborn within her womb.

Only when the government says it is legal is it not murder.

reply to post by sulaw


Good questions Sulaw, but you're wandering into the philosophy of science, and out of realm of spirituality.

Biblically speaking, Adam became a living "soul" at the point of the "breath of life" and this what "divinely" separates us from animals. God gave Adam dominion over the animals. (Not that animals don't have souls, biblically speaking, God will require an explanation/judgement of the animals that have killed humans, Genesis 9:5)

So, biblically speaking, of course, an unborn fetus is still only an animal, not having the breath of life yet, and mankind holds dominion over it, In this case womankind, more specifically, the pregnant woman has dominion over the animalistic nature of her body and what's happening to it and inside of it.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by windword

 

"Nostriles" connect to the lungs, therefore, biblically speaking, first breath is connected to the lungs.

Not necessarily

Of course nostriles connect to the lungs, always!

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

"Before I formed thee in the belly", refers to the pre-existence of the soul, not the life of a body that wasn't yet "in the belly." The soul doesn't enter the body until the first breath is taken. according to the Bible.

"If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." –Exodus 21:22-25

It is a crime to this day, if one murders the mother leading to the death of an unborn it is considered murdering two people,it is a crime, or if a mother does harm to an unborn within her womb.

That refers to the death of the pregnant woman, not the loss of a fetus. The Unborn Victims of Violence Act wasn't written into law in the USA until 2004. It was pushed and promoted by pro-lifers to pave a way to collapse Roe v Wade and criminalize abortion in the future.

Roe V Wade ruled that a fetus has to right to life. That is still the law of the land.

Only when the government says it is legal is it not murder.

And God and the Bible.

reply to post by redoubt


Well the threads really about where the notion of abortion is against God came from. I understand that much of the Bible is up for personal interpretation, I agree with you there... but not everything is, some of it is pretty clear cut, I think this is pretty clear cut, so where did the other interpretation come from? And yes in a nation that is not supposed to be based on religion how do we keep coming up with laws that are based on popular Christian thinking? Abortion isn't illegal yet, but those laws made by people who believe abortion is against God keep getting popping up more and more and abortion wasn't always legal here... based on Christian opposition.

reply to post by windword

"Before I formed thee in the belly", refers to the pre-existence of the soul, not the life of a body that wasn't yet "in the belly." The soul doesn't enter the body until the first breath is taken. according to the Bible.

That seem illogical.

So the vessel for the soul is empty the whole time it is in the womb?

Yet, this mass of cells has a heart that beats and a mind that is aware.

Fetal breathing


The fetus does not actually breathe in the womb. The mother breathes for the fetus, and essential oxygen is passed to the fetus through the umbilical cord.

www.leaderu.com...

By nine weeks, a developing fetus can hiccup and react to loud noises. By the end of the second trimester it can hear.
Just as adults do, the fetus experiences the rapid eye movement (REM) sleep of dreams.
The fetus savors its mother's meals, first picking up the food tastes of a culture in the womb.
Among other mental feats, the fetus can distinguish between the voice of Mom and that of a stranger, and respond to a familiar story read to it.
Even a premature baby is aware, feels, responds, and adapts to its environment.
Just because the fetus is responsive to certain stimuli doesn't mean that it should be the target of efforts to enhance development. Sensory stimulation of the fetus can in fact lead to bizarre patterns of adaptation later on.

Fetal psychology

reply to post by windword

you're wandering into the philosophy of science, and out of realm of spirituality.

I wanted to as, yes the discussion is about a certain excerpt from the bible and a "different take on Christianity and abortion", yet the premise of which the abortion debate manifests includes all sides, specifically science and religion.

And not to venture to far off spirituality, I base most of my feelings on the same as you as well as metaphysically which coincidentally includes variations of sciences that procure a different take as well.

I guess that's why I asked: What's the difference between living tissue and life as living tissue is still life just not as we as human's and even biblically label it.

more specifically, the pregnant woman has dominion over the animalistic nature of her body and what's happening to it and inside of it.

I agree, yet what about abortions that happen within the female body when the woman is 100% healthy and takes care of herself. A natural abortion, a defensive mechanism within the human biology that will self abort if the concieved child posses a threat to the host?

So not to scew the quote I referenced from you but for me it's off kilter as a natural abortion due to "whatever" a causing affect may be is not punishable. Metaphysically I would say that some souls just want to experiance the act of being concieved and don't need to experiance life itself (But that's way OT and not part of this conversation, I digress)

This is such a sticky subject matter... I appreciate the discussion ... It's almost like playing a game of ultimate leap frog... Personally speaking.... This topic is making the gears turn several different way~

Originally posted by Catacomb
I understand that there are certain cases where abortion is an option for some mothers, as in rape, and when the pregnancy is complicating the health of the mother.

However, I will never understand it. It actually makes me sick to think that it goes on, every day, as birth control. To think, of all the lives that are wiped out. To think of the human beings we lost, and what they could have done with their lives. Yes, some would have been bad, and not productive members of society. But, the vast majority would have been good, law abiding citizens of this world.

edit on 21-8-2013 by Catacomb because: (no reason given)

If the mother already didn't want the child and you force them to have the child, who's to say that they're going to provide any kind of emotional nourishment to their child? Children who are emotionally neglected develop personality and attachment disorders later in life. To me, you're being very unrealistic at how many of these individuals would be "good" vs. "bad".

reply to post by Stormdancer777

So the vessel for the soul is empty the whole time it is in the womb?

Was Adam an empty vessel before God blew the "breath of life" into him, making him a livng soul? Did God "know" Adam before he created his body?

Even a premature baby is aware, feels, responds, and adapts to its environment.

A premature baby is a "born" baby.

At birth, the baby's lungs are filled with fluid secreted by the lungs and are not inflated. When the newborn is expelled from the birth canal, its central nervous system reacts to the sudden change in temperature and environment. This triggers it to take the first breath, within about 10 seconds after delivery.
en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Kali74


The thing here is that a person's faith has often become the new age inquisitional weapon of choice. For instance, I suspect that even you thought that my views were based on my faith... and assumption based on? Well, yes, many people do indeed apply their religion to the subject but certainly not all.

Also, your OP seemed to be seeking a means to justify abortion using the Bible. This could leave one to wonder whether the goal was to sustain the subject of abortion or simply target religion. Not suggesting that this was your specific goal... but it does leave it open to speculation. Thus, my initial reply...

The concept of human life beginning quite early on from conception does not require the Bible or any religion. Also, considering that here and now in the 21st century that contraceptives are available over-the-counter and now, in many cases, without charge or question, pretty much makes accidental pregnancy something that doesn't have to be the problem it once was.

The argument that a woman's body is her own is indeed quite true. However, regardless of gender, there is also the matter of personal responsibility. In a nutshell, abortion should not be, in my opinion, a replacement for the pill or a condom. Once one reaches the age of majority when making choices in the realm of consensual sexual relations, there should be some degree of maturity and that responsibility.

Finally, the subject of actually determining 'when' a child is a human being is one that we really just don't know for sure. The current profile is based on speculative medical science... and I use the word 'speculative' because one can't crawl inside the uterus and interview the subject... so, we take what we think we know, argue about it and then a gaggle of experts votes to arrive at the conclusion.

God or no god at all... the outcome is the same.

Thanks for allowing me to participate in your discussion

Leaving religion aside, if you don't believe in a soul or the sanctity of human life, debating the issue is pointless.

To me all life is sacred, and what is more, the desire to protect the completely helpless.

The blood of your blood the bones of your bones.

All the eggs a woman will ever carry form in her ovaries while she is a four-month-old fetus in the womb of her mother. This means our cellular life as an egg begins in the womb of our grandmother. Each of us spent five months in our grandmother's womb and she in turn formed within the womb of her grandmother. We vibrate to the rhythms of our mother's blood before she herself is born. And this pulse is the thread of blood that runs all the way back through the grandmothers to the first mother. We all share the blood of the first mother - we are truly children of one blood.

blog.gaiam.com...

What happened to maternal instinct the women that would die to save their unborn, like the other instincts we were gifted, we are losing that one too.

Looking at it through the eyes of the metaphysical, is it necessary for every soul that was created to attain human form?

reply to post by Stormdancer777

Leaving religion aside, if you don't believe in a soul or the sanctity of human life, debating the issue is pointless.

What if you believe in reincarnation and that the soul doesn't enter the body, and claim person hood until the first breath is taken?

reply to post by Stormdancer777


Simply brilliant! Well stated Storm!!! You are absoluetly correct~

Looking at it through the eyes of the metaphysical, is it necessary for every soul that was created to attain human form?

And the answer would be "no", but the metaphysics go's so much deeper and that's where Religion and Metaphysics clash~ The meta will support the science and religion as 1 together yet when standing behind religion or science itself, will cause a debate to form where no debate is needed in metaphysics.

Faith is a funny query whether it is laden in religion or science fact. This is why I personally lean on and study Metaphysics.

Thank you for posting that Storm!