The Spaceships of Ezekiel (Revisited)

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
You are not going to haul fuel for a rocket (do you know how rockets work?) all the way across the galaxy for one thing.

You didn't read and comprehend my entire post. There will be more efficient ways to use rocket engines in the future. For instance, an alien civilization could burn a simple crystal to create clean rocket power, thus not having to carry any fuel across the galaxy. You have no idea the capabilities of other alien cultures.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
To overcome the unimaginable vast expanses of space you will have been many years beyond the rotor and propeller.

You're combining two separate and totally different examples into one sentence. Space travel has nothing to do with atmospheric travel. So, I'll say it again: you could have the most advanced warp drive or space-folding engines to traverse the stars, but still use a form of rocket or rotor for atmospheric flight. It is totally and completely possible.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
You cannot have it all. Either ET has fiery smoking craft now and not silent and move in any direction like UFO observers have reported.

You're also not comprehending that there are an unimaginable number of alien species in the universe. Each one will have their own different technologies. While one species may have superb interstellar flight capabilities, and may also use "primitive" rocket/rotor technology for atmospheric flight. Another species might be thousands or millions of years more advanced than the next species and use some sort of anti-grav or other unthinkable technology that we can't even imagine.

Furthermore, yes those same aliens that visited us thousands of years ago could have newer technology that did away with rockets and rotors.

The point is, you don't know. You're only speculating in your opinion what other alien civilizations may or may not utilize. But it is pure, plain ignorance to automatically dictate what an advanced alien civilization will or will not use because you say so without any proof whatsoever.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
like all zealots you are blinding yourself...... don't be a zealot.

Calling others names only diminishes your credibility and makes others not really take your opinions very seriously.

edit on 11-8-2013 by _BoneZ_ because: (no reason given)

Beautiful work.Awesome

Originally posted by chrome413
First off, great job on the renderings. Seeing them in such detail really puts this sighting into perspective for me.

Secondly, that craft really doesn't look all that "advanced." I'm kind of thinking the U.S. military contractors could build something like that. It's basically rockets and propellers. That has me thinking that maybe, just maybe, these beings are not quite as technologically advanced as we give them credit for being. I've actually thought this for some time. They could have quite a bit of knowledge and still not be as technologically advanced as we would think visitors from the other side of the universe would be. Some intelligence coming from the other side of the galaxy is still using propeller blades and rocket boosters? Hmmmmm. . . maybe we are not quite as un-advanced as we think?

if an alien species was here at that time, I would suspect that they stayed in orbit, and then would send down manned or unmanned craft to whatever habitable planet they went to...why?....mother ship too big and not designed for planetary landings. think of the star trek enterprise with shuttles

Originally posted by _BoneZ_

 

To the OP: fantastic thread with some amazing images. Although the wheels would make for a bumpy ride and don't seem logistical, everything else seems like it could be a real and actual craft.

Thanks _Bone_Z! I've actually been think a lot about the wheels, especially since they are an integral part of Ezekiel's description. I think I know what you meant above, in terms of stability and operational aspects, so this was my approach:



It would surely be a design challenge to accomodate the different systems into each of the units. But I thought that the wheels might have been pulled up and drawn in a little while being connected to an internal stabilizing frame. But as said: it's just an idea and it all might have indeed looked somewhat different ...

You may have actually invented a new craft for humankind in the near future. I love the idea of using rocket engines to slow the craft down after entering the atmosphere, then using individual rotor blades (like a quad-copter) to guide the craft through the atmosphere.

In fact, Joseph Blumrich deserves most of the credit, but I tried to elaborate on some of the details. For example, I think for the "entry & descent phase", some kind of main boosters were necessary - and I further think that, according to the description, they are likely to have been part of the 'living creatures'. That's why I implemented the engines at the bottom of each unit.

Originally posted by jeep3r

Originally posted by Harte

 

Ezekiel describes the Throne of God here, using some of the standard descriptive terms associated with said Throne from other books of the Bible (...) See more at: ancientaliensdebunked.com...

Fairly straightforward then. Ezekiel is claiming to have had a visitation from God, which is what Ezekiel says in the first place, isn't it?

Hello Harte!

I've seen that part of Ancient Aliens Debunked which goes into much detail while disrupting the spacecraft-interpretation of Ezekiel's account. Personally, I'm not convinced of the symbolic 'throne theory' they suggest instead ...

But I guess there will always be those who favor the metaphorical interpretation of the bible, on the one hand, and those who think about a more literal interpretation, on the other. I don't think we'll ever be able to unite these two opposing groups. And I'm fully aware that I'm not going to convince historians, like yourself, or the majority of theologists out there by creating threads like this.

Okay. Then let me point out what I consider to be an error (bolded text) in the above quote.

IMO, you have the concept backwards. As I quoted in the previous post, there is no description in Ezekiel concerning what, in the artwork, is the "body" of the "spacecraft." However, AA enthusiasts always claim this is a spaceship and usually include artwork that "proves" it.

So, it's obvious to me that what you refer to as a "literal" interpretation is quite metaphorical, while the interpretation you call "metaphorical" is, in fact, nothing but literal.

After all, as was pointed out, the four figures were even called "cherubim" by Ezekiel himself. I don't see where he refers to them as legs with wheels within wheels on their feet. Also, I told you where you could find a similar description of the Throne where the Biblical text actually states that it is the Throne of God (Daniel somewhere, I forget, but it's in the quote from Heiser I provided.)

It is the AA folks that ar embellishing the description, as well as calling the description itself a metaphor for a spacecraft.

Harte

reply to post by Harte


There certainly is some interpretation involved on behalf of the AA proponents. However, when Ezekiel is referring to a "vault" and further describes how an object with four living creatures around it comes down with an immense cloud incl. something like glowing metal in the center ... then it is logical to assume that what he describes could have been round or disc-shaped.

But as you said, the depictions in the OP do contain some interpretations that are rather loosely based on Ezekiel's description ... while complementing his information with what would make sense in the context of what he describes.

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by jeep3r

Originally posted by Harte

 

Ezekiel describes the Throne of God here, using some of the standard descriptive terms associated with said Throne from other books of the Bible (...) See more at: ancientaliensdebunked.com...

Fairly straightforward then. Ezekiel is claiming to have had a visitation from God, which is what Ezekiel says in the first place, isn't it?

Hello Harte!

I've seen that part of Ancient Aliens Debunked which goes into much detail while disrupting the spacecraft-interpretation of Ezekiel's account. Personally, I'm not convinced of the symbolic 'throne theory' they suggest instead ...

But I guess there will always be those who favor the metaphorical interpretation of the bible, on the one hand, and those who think about a more literal interpretation, on the other. I don't think we'll ever be able to unite these two opposing groups. And I'm fully aware that I'm not going to convince historians, like yourself, or the majority of theologists out there by creating threads like this.

Okay. Then let me point out what I consider to be an error (bolded text) in the above quote.

IMO, you have the concept backwards. As I quoted in the previous post, there is no description in Ezekiel concerning what, in the artwork, is the "body" of the "spacecraft." However, AA enthusiasts always claim this is a spaceship and usually include artwork that "proves" it.

So, it's obvious to me that what you refer to as a "literal" interpretation is quite metaphorical, while the interpretation you call "metaphorical" is, in fact, nothing but literal.

After all, as was pointed out, the four figures were even called "cherubim" by Ezekiel himself. I don't see where he refers to them as legs with wheels within wheels on their feet. Also, I told you where you could find a similar description of the Throne where the Biblical text actually states that it is the Throne of God (Daniel somewhere, I forget, but it's in the quote from Heiser I provided.)

It is the AA folks that ar embellishing the description, as well as calling the description itself a metaphor for a spacecraft.

Harte

actually.. literal interpretation would be a spaceship. this is the route science would take. in hindu texts there are 'virmanas', sumerians claim aliens came from the sky and taught them everything.. writing, agriculture, math etc

metaphorical interpretation will have to do with meditation and the chakra system. the merkabah/merkava/mercavah.. also known as the chariot of God. a light vehicle!

so there is a metaphorical interpretation

or is that the literal interpretation? lol

Originally posted by jeep3r


There certainly is some interpretation involved on behalf of the AA proponents. However, when Ezekiel is referring to a "vault" and further describes how an object with four living creatures around it comes down with an immense cloud incl. something like glowing metal in the center ... then it is logical to assume that what he describes could have been round or disc-shaped.

But as you said, the depictions in the OP do contain some interpretations that are rather loosely based on Ezekiel's description ... while complementing his information with what would make sense in the context of what he describes.

no, it really doesn't.
do you really think when ezekiel calls the cherub "living beings" he doesn't know the difference between a thing made of metal and a living thing? do you think he isn't smart enough to know what wings look like? or the FACT that the text says he saw beings that looked human as part of the thing. if i saw something like what you have in your OP i wouldn't describe it anywhere close to what ezekiel wrote about.


what ezekiel described was a throne being carried by beings that looked human except they had four wings and animal faces.
the description of the vision, if you read it without forcing ufo crap on it, looks like a wheeled cart made of angels.

the wheels are angels connected to other angels that hold up the base the throne sits on. that is how pretty much everyone since it was written imagines it to be.

did you even read the chapter? i'd hardly think exekiel would be dumb enough to mistake anything like what you made for human looking creatures.

"The center of the fire looked like glowing metal, 5 and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance their form was human, 6 but each of them had four faces and four wings. "
please explain to me how in the world you got those images out of this? please! it makes my head hurt trying to figure it out.

by the way the fire is what looks like burning metal not what is in it, which i imagine means it was so hot it was white. that is how burning metal looks, white hot.
the throne of god is not described that way, it is inside the fire, and the rest of the chapter describes it.

reply to post by jeep3r


Oh crap....a quadracopter?? Was the N.S.A. spying on the past too wouldn't surprise me great thread...love the "clues" hidden in past text and artwork.....

Originally posted by filledcup


actually.. literal interpretation would be a spaceship. this is the route science would take. in hindu texts there are 'virmanas', sumerians claim aliens came from the sky and taught them everything.. writing, agriculture, math etc

metaphorical interpretation will have to do with meditation and the chakra system. the merkabah/merkava/mercavah.. also known as the chariot of God. a light vehicle!

so there is a metaphorical interpretation

or is that the literal interpretation? lol

edit on 11-8-2013 by filledcup because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-8-2013 by filledcup because: (no reason given)

bollocks!
only an idiot would interpret it that way, or someone trying to sell the belief.
the literal description would be a cart since that is what the vision is describing.
science wouldn't do that! it would say just what i said, it's a cart, or maybe a carriage. heck you would be better off claiming its a car! its a car made of angels!

everything else you said is the same wrong crap you are shoveling, there is no evidence that virmanas were anything more than magic chariots

you have no clue what metaphorical means..
metaphor:One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol.
the story is not a metaphor it is an encounter with god, a real event chronicled in a book written by a prophet. what the heck is the story representing if it's a metaphor? honestly, the answer to something not being literal is not metaphor, it's "i ate some bad sheep stew last night and had a nightmare!"

you also have no clue what chariot mysticism is, it has nothing to do with either of the things you listed, but are related to visions of god and heaven.
the chariot of god is the chariot of god, a chariot made up of metal, gem stone, and angels.

Originally posted by Harte

Okay. Then let me point out what I consider to be an error (bolded text) in the above quote.

IMO, you have the concept backwards. As I quoted in the previous post, there is no description in Ezekiel concerning what, in the artwork, is the "body" of the "spacecraft." However, AA enthusiasts always claim this is a spaceship and usually include artwork that "proves" it.

So, it's obvious to me that what you refer to as a "literal" interpretation is quite metaphorical, while the interpretation you call "metaphorical" is, in fact, nothing but literal.

After all, as was pointed out, the four figures were even called "cherubim" by Ezekiel himself. I don't see where he refers to them as legs with wheels within wheels on their feet. Also, I told you where you could find a similar description of the Throne where the Biblical text actually states that it is the Throne of God (Daniel somewhere, I forget, but it's in the quote from Heiser I provided.)

It is the AA folks that ar embellishing the description, as well as calling the description itself a metaphor for a spacecraft.

Harte

i wouldn't use the term metaphor here harte, or literal really, it's neither, its a vision taken as a real event. it was an encounter with god by exekiel, and those terms are used when dealing with text not events or history.
i guess the text could be argued to be a literal telling of the story, but i'm not sure how it would ever be a metaphor for anything.

the AA people ignore the verses were ezekiel speaking of the cherub holding up the "vault" on which the throne sits as "living beings" that look human, so how in the world would they come to the conclusion that they are supports for the "spaceship"?
the mind boggles at the absurd idea.

its honestly one the worst and goofiest textual hatchet jobs i've ever seen. the only people worse than AAT are creationists!

by the way, it could be argued that the vision could be an allegory, there really isn't a throne of god or anything because god is spirit.

reply to post by jeep3r


NICE !

SnF OP.

An amazing piece of ancient literature that so many would destroy. The Bible.

Originally posted by AntiNWO
reply to post by Char-Lee

 

That's a description of an abduction if I've ever heard one. IMO it describes Enoch being lifted (levitated) into a craft and brought to a mother ship, where he saw lots of lights surrounding some kind of alien leader.

One thing that drives me crazy is when people illustrate accounts like this and take the word "fire" literally. You have to remember that the only source of light they ever knew was fire, and therefore any artificial source of light will by default be described as "fire" or "brilliance" or something similar.

This subject has facinated me since I read the Von Daniken books in the 70's. I thought the OP did a brilliant job of illustrating what Ezekiel saw, but I always have a problem believing that advanced races used rotor blades or jet engines as a propulsion system, when you consider that they got here with interplanetary space flight technology.

I agree completely about the fire and many other things that are clearly someone trying to describe what they cannot understand.

I was thinking that, maybe the "watchers' in the book of Enoch have become confused in many of the writings around the world and using the term "God" for all of them has caused books to be gathered together and mixed.

The flying ships that were seen many times on the earth may have been build right here by the watchers, they seem to have been left here to watch, but instead decided to interfer. It seems they were the ones that sent humans down the path of material worship, body and clothing worship, killing one another and away from the simple and good life the people originally enjoyed.

It sounds as though they created cities and temples and each had worshipers and they found each other and war here on the Earth. they may have even manipulated human DNA for their own purposes which was all not intended by the creator who left them to watch the earth.

They are clearly still leading the whole of humanity and still living here as rulers in some way.

1 And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all 2 colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they 3 were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, 'Armaros the resolving of enchantments, Baraqijal (taught) astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . .

I was thinking the root-cuttings could have been the use of drugs.

www.ccel.org...

reply to post by wirefly


I feel that way too when I question the Bible, but in a way they are hiding something from us. Don't forget that the Vatican has an official list of books that are confirmed as inspired by God himself (The Canon of Holy Books). This means that there are still some books, letters or prophecies that are either being studied to check if they were inspired by God or are confirmed that they are not inspired by God. That means that they can contain hidden truths that if revealed to the community, can bring mass confusion.

Apologies if it's already been addressed, and I might have the wrong part of the bible, but I thought that the craft associated with Ezekial landed into some sort of receiving structure? Am I confused?

Originally posted by pilotx

There's also the possibility that the primitive technology of rotorblades and thrusters were just a (purposeful?) display, and not actually involved in the operation of the craft. This is taking the EDI hypothesis, and it seems consistent with the strangeness of such objects.

WoW. It never occurred to me, to consider this angle.
You could be more than right here.

Originally posted by Salander

 

Apologies if it's already been addressed, and I might have the wrong part of the bible, but I thought that the craft associated with Ezekial landed into some sort of receiving structure? Am I confused?

Yes, Ezekiel saw the 'likeness of the glory of the lord' also in a different context involving a temple. That would be Ezekiel 10, here's an excerpt ...

3 Now the cherubim were standing on the south side of the temple when the man went in, and a cloud filled the inner court. 4 Then the glory of the Lord rose from above the cherubim and moved to the threshold of the temple. The cloud filled the temple, and the court was full of the radiance of the glory of the Lord. 5 The sound of the wings of the cherubim could be heard as far away as the outer court, like the voice of God Almighty[a] when he speaks.

(...)

20 These were the living creatures I had seen beneath the God of Israel by the Kebar River, and I realized that they were cherubim. 21 Each had four faces and four wings, and under their wings was what looked like human hands. 22 Their faces had the same appearance as those I had seen by the Kebar River. Each one went straight ahead.

Source

Originally posted by jeep3r
reply to post by Harte

 

There certainly is some interpretation involved on behalf of the AA proponents. However, when Ezekiel is referring to a "vault" and further describes how an object with four living creatures around it comes down with an immense cloud incl. something like glowing metal in the center ... then it is logical to assume that what he describes could have been round or disc-shaped.

But as you said, the depictions in the OP do contain some interpretations that are rather loosely based on Ezekiel's description ... while complementing his information with what would make sense in the context of what he describes.

I'd like to add...much as I love the renderings... taking quotes from the English/Western bible is kinda like taking quotes from Fifty Shades of Grey that's been re-written by a nun. For example "living creatures" could be a mistranslation or something that doesn't translate well (like warp plasma manifold). For example "driveshaft" translated literally from Italian is a (if I remember correctly) branch of a tree. The key point being that tree represents something sturdy that's tubular. Just a thought.

Originally posted by Char-Lee
I was thinking that, maybe the "watchers' in the book of Enoch have become confused in many of the writings around the world and using the term "God" for all of them has caused books to be gathered together and mixed.

I am convinced that you're correct. All one has to do is look at the "jealous, vengeful, fire and brimstone" God, and compare with the "loving and forgiving" God.

If I recall, one of the main points Von Daniken stresses in Chariots of the Gods is that the literal translation of the hebrew is "gods", and not "God", meaning that several beings were considered gods.

they seem to have been left here to watch, but instead decided to interfer. It sounds as though they created cities and temples and each had worshipers and they found each other and war here on the Earth. they may have even manipulated human DNA for their own purposes which was all not intended by the creator who left them to watch the earth.

IMO that makes perfect sense, and I think some had good intentions, such as lifting humans out of ignorance and slavery, and taught them advanced math and science, while others tried to maintain the status quo. The two factions split and went to war. No doubt that over time those two factions would have split further, and today as a result, we have religious wars all over the world. Funny how UFOs seem to be attracted to war zones and military bases.

Originally posted by demongoat

Originally posted by filledcup


actually.. literal interpretation would be a spaceship. this is the route science would take. in hindu texts there are 'virmanas', sumerians claim aliens came from the sky and taught them everything.. writing, agriculture, math etc

metaphorical interpretation will have to do with meditation and the chakra system. the merkabah/merkava/mercavah.. also known as the chariot of God. a light vehicle!

so there is a metaphorical interpretation

or is that the literal interpretation? lol

edit on 11-8-2013 by filledcup because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-8-2013 by filledcup because: (no reason given)

bollocks!
only an idiot would interpret it that way, or someone trying to sell the belief.
the literal description would be a cart since that is what the vision is describing.
science wouldn't do that! it would say just what i said, it's a cart, or maybe a carriage. heck you would be better off claiming its a car! its a car made of angels!

everything else you said is the same wrong crap you are shoveling, there is no evidence that virmanas were anything more than magic chariots

you have no clue what metaphorical means..
metaphor:One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol.
the story is not a metaphor it is an encounter with god, a real event chronicled in a book written by a prophet. what the heck is the story representing if it's a metaphor? honestly, the answer to something not being literal is not metaphor, it's "i ate some bad sheep stew last night and had a nightmare!"

you also have no clue what chariot mysticism is, it has nothing to do with either of the things you listed, but are related to visions of god and heaven.
the chariot of god is the chariot of god, a chariot made up of metal, gem stone, and angels.

en.wikipedia.org...

Merkabah/Merkavah mysticism (or Chariot mysticism) is a school of early Jewish mysticism, c. 100 BCE - 1000 CE, centered on visions such as those found in the Book of Ezekiel chapter 1, or in the hekhalot ("palaces") literature, concerning stories of ascents to the heavenly palaces and the Throne of God. The main corpus of the Merkabah literature was composed in Israel in the period 200–700 CE

www.crystalinks.com...

Merkabah, also spelled Merkaba, is the divine light vehicle allegedly used by ascended masters to connect with and reach those in tune with the higher realms. "Mer" means Light. "Ka" means Spirit. "Ba" means Body. Mer-Ka-Ba means the spirit/body surrounded by counter-rotating fields of light, (wheels within wheels), spirals of energy as in DNA, which transports spirit/body from one dimension to another.

also, symbolism and metaphors just happens to be one of my particular fields of expertise.

through a specific practice during meditation, one is suppose to activate this merkabah light vehicle around them. allowing them to fly etc. i dont know how, but a disc is suppose to appear, from somewhere. i have a book in my occult library which describes the process. but it must have been encoded because it didnt make much sense. perhaps i was not on the level required to interpret it. i should make another go.