An Orthopedic Surgeon Explains Her Faith In Creation

Appeal to authority is a fallacy, but she's not even an authority on biology, genetics, metaphysics or anything related to creation.

Originally posted by Barcs
Appeal to authority is a fallacy

Funny how that works, quote a intelligent person on supporting creation and its an "appeal to authority fallacy" oh and they are still really stupid no matter how many degrees they have too....But quote an authority that supports evolution and it's all good, be intellectually honest and at least admit this sword cuts both ways.

Originally posted by Barcs
Appeal to authority is a fallacy, but she's not even an authority on biology, genetics, metaphysics or anything related to creation.

hahaha...the old tired "appeal to authority" tactic.

What's next on the list...let's see. ah complexity? or these?

‘All competent scientists believe evolution. All intelligent people believe it. Only the uneducated and the ignorant don’t believe it.

Where's the list barcs?

Originally posted by edmc^2


Well let's start with logic and common sense.

Logic dictates that a design requires a designer.

Ok, let's follow your logic: If a design requires a designer, then what or who designed god and created him?

(he was always there and is beyond time and space is not a valid logic answer btw)

Originally posted by edmc^2

‘All competent scientists believe evolution. All intelligent people believe it. Only the uneducated, the delusional, the dishonest and the ignorant don’t believe it.'

Fixed for you.

The fact 45% of Americans do not accept evolution is really embarrassing, in the western developed world only Turkey has more deniers.

Originally posted by edmc^2
reply to post by Vasa Croe

Interesting take. So if a person says "I love you every day and hit you when I say it" then either he is insane or derange because no sane or normal person will do such a thing. And the one receiving such treatment will become challenged and most definitely will NOT see it as love but hate. NO human will see it as love because it's in our nature to differentiate feelings. But then again if one view these things as just chemical reactions then I guess one can be capable of such an evil thing. Fortunately, majority of people in the world have morals whether they believe in a God or not. They have morals not because it is a learned thing but because it's human nature to exhibit such feeling. In other words, it's part of our makeup. It's natural as a newborn baby's smile upon hearing her mother's voice. It's natural as a warm hug from a dear loved one. But you're entitled to what you believe and I hope you don't apply such twisted reasoning to your fellow man as they will react to you in kind. It's human nature.

Not saying it is moral or right just telling you the facts. If you learn a feeling associated with a word that word will be what you associate the feeling with until someone teaches you differently. Whatever word you think SHOULD be associated with it has no bearing....you would not know what love is unless you were taught what it felt like, or read it in the bible I guess....

Sure, I can provide facts that you can debate but as for the moths, did it evolved into something else? If it did, I must have missed it. Can you please let me know what it evolved into, because as far as I know it just changed colors like a chameleon changing colors?

Provide them please....I did.

No, not sarcasm, but fact - based on recorded human history being around 5000 years ago which is very close to the Biblical record of 6000 years ago. And yes, unlike the Young Earth movement, I do believe based on present understanding - the earth is around 4BYO.

So you take science at its word on the age of the earth yet only go by recorded human history, or the bible, for the age of man?

No, not a novel but an inspired book from the Creator and our belief is not based on faith alone but on solid facts!

Give me a fact then...it was a book. Re-translated and re-written numerous time...which translation holds these facts?

For instance, when did science found that the earth is being suspended in space (by a force we now know as gravity)? Was it in 19th/20th century?
Yet the Bible writers knew of this fact more than 3000 years ago. Now how did they know this bit of information if the Bible is just a novel? Hmmm...

Please quote whatever bible verse for reference.

Another, when did science confirmed that the earth is round? Was it 19th/20th century?
Yet the Bible writers knew this fact more than 3000 years ago. Now how did they know this bit of information if the Bible is just a novel? Hmmm...

Please quote whatever bible verse for reference.

Another, when did science figured out the DNA can be written in codes? Was it around the 20th century?
Yet the Bible writers knew this fact around 3000 years ago. Now how did they know this bit of information if the Bible is just a novel? Hmmm...

Please quote whatever bible verse for reference.

To the contrary, we study nature in order to understand the meaning and purpose behind it. Why the Creator created it that way. The more we learn about nature the more we understand the Creator. Perfect example is given by the OP.

If you truly study nature then how can you believe man is only 5000 years old? Guessing you don't believe in dinosaurs either?

Evolution on the other hand is still stuck on the mud (so to speak), still looking for the answer on the origins of life. How the so called "the selfish gene" evolved from a "mud" into single membrane-less celled "organism" to its current forms. Proponents of it are still theorizing of another theory to prove the first theory is a probable theory. Oh well, to each its own.

Stuck in the mud and looking for origins? Not a chance. Question and research everything leaving no stone unturned...for sure. Creationism is still stuck on a book, not questioning anything and blindly believing. And yes it is blindly believing because the book you base your beliefs on was written before any of us were around, re-written/translated incorrectly and there is no proof that the person the bible speaks of actually did anything the bible says he did.

If your bible is the word and the people that wrote it the prophets, then please tell me why they plagiarized the Epic of Gilgamesh for their flood story....Epic of Gilgamesh was written LONG before the bible or Jesus were ever a thought...

reply to post by edmc^2

hahaha...the old tired "appeal to authority" tactic.

Your right about the "old and tired" part, but the "appeal to authority" is not a tactic, it's a common logical fallacy.

What's next on the list...let's see. ah complexity? or these? ‘All competent scientists believe evolution. All intelligent people believe it. Only the uneducated and the ignorant don’t believe it. Where's the list barcs?

First off... evolution is not a belief system, it's an observable fact of nature. It's not something you believe in, it's something you understand, or not.

Intelligent people "believe" by choice.
Using the word 'belief', you prove that what you are talking about is subjective.

reply to post by flyingfish


Well said. Well said.

reply to post by Prezbo369

The fact 45% of Americans do not accept evolution is really embarrassing

Actually that is a good thing and they might quote a fairly famous character from a famous movie about you...
When ridiculed about his belief system he responded,
"I find your lack of faith disturbing." And what he did well saying it might wake the person up too from there present belief system.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by Prezbo369

 

The fact 45% of Americans do not accept evolution is really embarrassing

Actually that is a good thing and they might quote a fairly famous character from a famous movie about you...
When ridiculed about his belief system he responded,
"I find your lack of faith disturbing." And what he did well saying it might wake the person up too from there present belief system.

Yes, a fictional character with fictional superpowers in a fictional universe.

But even in that fictional universe the 'faith' Vader was talking about didn't originate from the debased and illiterate sand people....

Apt really.

reply to post by Prezbo369


And how do you think people who believe creation continue to believe in it when they have people constantly attacking them as being ignorant, they read and research information that supports creation. At least I do, and I there are many on ATS that do it too, some have posted on this thread. ATS posters are generally some of the most well informed posters on the NET. So most here have done plenty or reading and research on this topic, comparing them to illiterate sand people is just false with ATS members.

PS: I know you meant the origins, but it alludes to all that believe today.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
And how do you think people who believe creation continue to believe in it when they have people constantly attacking them as being ignorant, they read and research information that supports creation.

Willful ignorance, and getting all their information from religious webpages.

At least I do, and I there are many on ATS that do it too, some have posted on this thread.

No arguments there...

ATS posters are generally some of the most well informed posters on the NET.

Lol how could you possibly know that?

So most here have done plenty or reading and research on this topic, comparing them to illiterate sand people is just false with ATS members.

PS: I know you meant the origins, but it alludes to all that believe today.

Nice edit, but no it really doesn't elude to that.

I was talking about the hysterical desert dwellers that existed 2000 years ago.

They didn't know any better....

And so the discussion on what some orthopaedic surgeon (how many are there in the world?) thinks about evolution nears the end of its third page.

Is this really worth arguing about? She's an orthopaedic surgeon, not a bloody palaeontologist.

Originally posted by XyZeR

Originally posted by edmc^2


Well let's start with logic and common sense.

Logic dictates that a design requires a designer.

Ok, let's follow your logic: If a design requires a designer, then what or who designed god and created him?

(he was always there and is beyond time and space is not a valid logic answer btw)

he was always there and is beyond time and space IS a valid logic answer!!!

It's logical and valid as the concept of INFINITY.

BTW - do you accept the concept that space and time are infinite?

If not then I'm sorry to say but you've passed the plateau of logic and went to realm of fantasy - i.e. evolution.

reply to post by flyingfish

First off... evolution is not a belief system

Oh yes it is!

Here... do you BELIEVE that man evolved from a lower form of organism millions of years ago?

reply to post by Vasa Croe

Please quote whatever bible verse for reference.

OK let start with this one:

“He is . . . hanging the earth upon nothing.”—Job 26:7.

What does the evidence show?

Here:

The earth IS INDEED hanging “upon nothing” (by gravitational force) governed by the “statutes of the heavens”.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fd99e4548e3d.jpg[/atsimg]


So even though the book of Job was written in the 15th century B.C.E., it is scientifically correct and accurate.

Through the use of powerful instruments, higher mathematics and the brightest minds of science, what Job wrote is correct and scientifically accurate!

If you deny this then ignorance abound with you sir/madam.

Here's a thought that baffled many in the early ages, a nineteenth century Bible scholar said:

“It presents a singularly strong protest against superstitions prevalent among all heathens . . . Job knows nothing of solid foundations on which the broad expanse of earth is supported. How Job knew the truth, demonstrated by astronomy, that the earth hangs self-poised in empty space, is a question not easily solved by those who deny the inspiration of Holy Scripture.” – F. C. Cook

So the question again is:

Where did Job got the information from more than 3400 years ago? How could he possibly know that the earth is “hanging upon nothing”?

How was he able to positively point out such accurate scientific statement without the aid of advance knowledge of modern astronomy/cosmology?

What say you?


BTW do you know that the Egyptians believed that the earth was supported by pillars; the Greeks said by Atlas; others said by an elephant standing on a turtle that swam in a cosmic sea?

Yet the Bible knew all along this basic scientific evidence that we now know.

If this not enough, here's another:

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”—Gen. 1:1.

What does the evidence show?

Here:

"Evidence of a beginning"

The book “God and the Astronomers,” page 14, said:

“Now we see how the astronomical evidence leads to a biblical view of the origin of the world.”

The Hubble Telescope and other powerful instruments, higher mathematics and the brightest minds of science has confirmed this to be so: the universe had a beginning – ergo: The Big Bang.

Consider a few more:

Professor of astronomy David L. Block wrote:

“That the universe has not always existed—that it had a beginning—has not always been popular.”

Now:

“Virtually all astrophysicists today conclude, that “the universe began with a big bang that propelled matter outward in all directions.” – reported U.S.News & World Report in 1997

“You can call it the big bang, but you can also call it with accuracy the moment of creation.” – Robert Jastrow

Penzias, who shared in the discovery of background radiation in the universe, observed:

“Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing.”

“What we have found is evidence for the birth of the universe.” – COBE team leader George Smoot

www.youtube.com...=619s

Division of Energy Between Photons and Massive Particles

One of the ideas associated with modeling the Big Bang is that the further back in time you project, the more the universe is dominated by photons. We think of today's universe as mostly matter, but the energy of the early universe was mostly photon energy with massive particles playing a very small role.
The amount of energy in radiation in today's universe can be estimated with the use of the Stefan- Boltzmann law, considering that the universe is filled with blackbody radiation at a temperature of 2.7 K.

hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...

www.youtube.com...

--------------------A conceptual illustration of the Big Bang Event:---------------
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0bc26b654706.jpg[/atsimg]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can provide more but I think the above evidence should be more than enough.

So what's your denial?

Deny Ignorance!

My vet says that the entire universe was created out of match-sticks by the Mystical Monks of Croydon, using their magnificent mystical powers of the mind to bind the sticks together over 2 and a half million seconds ago. The actual match-sticks themselves were purchased at Tescos.

I trust him, because, you know.. he's an authority on such matters..

Originally posted by ReturnofTheSonOfNothing
My vet says that the entire universe was created out of match-sticks by the Mystical Monks of Croydon, using their magnificent mystical powers of the mind to bind the sticks together over 2 and a half million seconds ago. The actual match-sticks themselves were purchased at Tescos.

I trust him, because, you know.. he's an authority on such matters..

AReturnofTheSonOfNothing is an excellent example of a post from ignorance! Who had neither the capacity or ability to understand basic science.

Approved and stamped by the person who starred it who neither have the brain to figure out the ignorance of the poster.

' Surprized why the mods didn't devolve your post.

reply to post by Prezbo369

Lol how could you possibly know that?

Post to enough different forums that deal with many different subjects and you will find out soon enough.

There have been other polls on ATS over the years on other subjects than creation and evolution and ATS members have been right on in big numbers.
The collective intelligence despite our differences on ATS is the best I have found on the internet.
Despite the difference of opinions we have, I still respect the critical thinking skills of my fellow ATS members.

Except if they get really condescendingly rude, but then they get banned anyway, another reason I like ATS.

Originally posted by edmc^2
AReturnofTheSonOfNothing is an excellent example of a post from ignorance! Who had neither the capacity or ability to understand basic science.

Approved and stamped by the person who starred it who neither have the brain to figure out the ignorance of the poster.

' Surprized why the mods didn't devolve your post.

edit on 8-8-2013 by edmc^2 because: ..

* Brought to you by religious intolerance (tm).

Because why present an argument when you can just attack the poster ad hominem and (if you have the sheer nerve) appeal to the mods instead?