Pope urges 'mutual respect' with Islam; While Iran Presidents threaten Israel

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


I'm really tired of your cheap tricks. It was a QUESTION, following up on the prior QUESTION. logical7 has said, "on the record":
"We hate the Jews....."
Just as the little kids in Palestine are taught to say when they are barely conversant.

QUESTION: So what is it, EXACTLY, that those hateful Muslims are so goddamned upset about??? QUESTION: That people who were indigenous to that part of the world still live in a tiny bit of it? QUESTION: That the 'victors' decided it was better for those people to have a tiny place to live and call home than to be homeless and/or 'exterminated'? QUESTION: What is in Israel (geographically) that the "Arabs" want so desperately???

The Iranian leaders - one leaving and the other taking over - BOTH have vilified Israel, saying it must "go down", and calling it a "wound." The Jews have been historically evicted from EVERYWHERE they tried to settle - that's why they became a diaspora - just like the Roma - (gypsies; Travellers) ---

they had NO COUNTRY. Now they have a tiny blip of land surrounded by their avowed enemies. I'm no supporter of "Israel" per se - and NOT ONE OF US HERE in this thread had ANYTHING to do with the outcomes of WW1 OR WW2 -

but we will CERTAINLY witness WORLD WAR THREE if the Middle East can't figure out how to get along...

It's been pointed out to me that I mixed up Empires and recorded history - fine, I accept that - and you know why? BECAUSE IT SHOULDN'T MATTER ---- "the sins of the fathers" should NOT be visited upon the children - and I'd be amazed if ANYONE on this board was a participant in WW2 or WW1. Yes, some of those people still exist, and they are ancients now. The world would be better off if those events were permanently put behind us, never to be discussed again, and WAR was globally taboo.

What is with the obsession with hatred?? WHAT GOOD DOES IT DO?? No white people in America are responsible for the "slavery" that the Africans endured, yet there is still residual hatred on the part of some sector of the Black community toward ALL whites because of that history. While Muslims are busy 'hating on' and 'threatening' other Muslims, Jews, the West, and anyone else they can, in the U.S. we are all here living in relative peace, on a day to day basis. Living in the same neighborhoods, shopping together, helping each other out, saying hello, holding doors open for each other --- and trying to figure out how to make things better.

We are NOT lobbing rockets at each other and bombing each other's places of worship, neighborhoods, or schools, lopping off people's heads or arms, stoning anyone to death, or making anyone walk around in tents with peep holes. Crime does happen, yes, but not on nearly the same scale, so don't even start saying, "well, you people have" this and that and the other.....

This insane, backward-focused indignation for 'imagined' grievances must STOP. And I say "imagined" because all of those historical events that led up to this ongoing tension are only that - IMAGINED. But what's happening every day because of those "past" things is NOT imagined. It is real. It is deadly, and frightening, and a danger to humanity as a whole. ANYONE who cannot see that is, frankly, intellectually AND SPIRITUALLY challenged.

reply to post by wildtimes

What are your suggestions? Exterminate the Jews? Yeah, that goes over real well. I wonder what it is that causes your hostility.

I never suggested it and i never even said anything that can wildly be interpreted the way you do.
You are just reacting emotionally because you don't want to discuss the facts i am presenting.

My point is simple, peace cannot to achieved till there is injustice and aggression and i am pointing that there is real injustice going on from almost a century and still going on.
It is just ridiculous to make statements for peace etc and want to be blind to the injustices been done and dismissing them away as past events.
I am also pointing that the real reason for the current situation is greed of a bunch of thugs and liars and not a religion.
The bunch sure contains some muslim rulers too.

Assuming that i or Sc0rpie or muslims don't want peace is just a quick jumping at conclusions.
Just because we don't agree with your views and are pointing at real problems does not mean that we are against peace.
You overblow the actions of some muslims and on the other side condemn the thugs and then try to dismiss them away as not a major obstacle to achieve peace.

You are in a way saying that palestinian kids throwing stones or some pesky rockets being launched are the real obstacle to peace and the israeli inhumane blockade of Gaza and West bank is wrong but not a bigger issue.
How do you get such a topsy turvy view? If you don't mean this then you at least appear to be giving this idea through your posts.

The only way to have real peace is to stop all real injustices and aggressions that are being committed no matter by whom. Some aggressors don't want peace and Charles suggest that we just accept the injustices because they are too strong to beat.

You live peacefully in the US because you are not a victim of injustices. Try insisting for peace like you do now when half your family is killed by a drone and the criminals are roaming free. You will not rest till you get justice.

So justice before peace and not just empty words be it by the Pope or Dali lama etc

reply to post by logical7

Dear logical7,

I've taken a breath and calmed down. I'm safe to be around now. (At least, I think I am, let's see how it goes.)

If I understand, Zionism is the desire and movemement to obtain a secure Jewish state in the area near Jerusalem. So people like you, sk0rpi0n, and the Iranian president are saying that the Jewish people shouldn't have a state, or their state should be nowhere near the Holy Land.

Even more surprising to me is why the Jewish people shouldn't have Israel. Certainly, the objection isn't that they are strangers, there were Jews there centuries before Islam even existed. If the objection is somehow based on the idea that they were given the land by others (the UN, Britain, etc.) as far as I know, all national borders were fixed by conquest or international agreement. You may not like it, but that's how it's done.

As soon as Israel was formed in the modern sense, the Islamic world did what it could to destroy it. It had committed no aggression, no atrocities, being brand new it was the most innocent of nations. Yet it was met with hatred and attempts at destruction before the ink was dry.

Please explain to me what Israel did in 24 hours that justified Islamic attacks. Attacking without justification then, makes me suspicious of attacks now. Islam doesn't seem to need a reason to attack Israel. It's nice if they could invent or exaggerate one to look better in the world's eyes, but at base, all there is is hatred.

There are complaints about the West Bank, Gaza, and the Sinai? In 1967 those didn't exist, it was all part of Israel. The only reason we know those names is that Israel offered them up to attain a secure peace. You'll notice that the land has been taken but the peace hasn't been delivered. Isn't that an injustice?

And if there is Muslim violence primarily to oppose Jewish "oppression," why are almost all of those killed by Muslim violence, Muslims?

If this is a concern about the West Bank and Gaza, why are Muslims killing and destroying in Africa and Asia?

This paragraph is not an argument, but only my perception. If you're trying to affect opinion, you should know what it is first. For me, Islam is being used as a driver for those who want expanded power and control over the entire world. Israel's "injustices" are only a phony excuse, as well as are the cartoons of Mohammed, the touching of the Koran by "unclean" fingers, posting derogatory comments, etc. Things that any other modern group or religion takes in stride every day, Islam's power brokers use as an excuse to fire up the mobs to do their bidding one more time. If they didn't have those excuses they would look like vicious animals to the world.

That's the opinion I would like to change, but I will only change it for facts or logic.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by logical7

I am also pointing that the real reason for the current situation is greed of a bunch of thugs and liars and not a religion.
The bunch sure contains some muslim rulers too.

I completely agree with you.
Thanks for saying this.

reply to post by charles1952

So people like you, sk0rpi0n, and the Iranian president are saying that the Jewish people shouldn't have a state, or their state should be nowhere near the Holy Land.

And people like you are saying that the Palestinian Arabs deserve to live under Israeli boots all their lives. Is that what you said? No? Then stop putting words into other peoples mouths.

As soon as Israel was formed in the modern sense, the Islamic world did what it could to destroy it. It had committed no aggression, no atrocities, being brand new it was the most innocent of nations.

The most innocent of nations? Really?

Retired Israeli General : We Destroyed Arab Villages To Create Our State

A retired Israeli military general told the Israeli Army Radio on his 100 birthday that the Israeli army destroyed and depopulated hundreds of Arab villages in order to establishment the state of Israel in 1948, and added that “he feels good about it.”

Still think they were the "most innocent of nations"? hmm?

Either you were completely unaware of the facts or you are purposely trying to sweep the truth under the carpet. At this point, you are just blindly defending Israel with no regard to what history actually has on record.

Or is it too anti-semitic to point out what the Jews themselves say they did to Arabs?

reply to post by wildtimes

QUESTION: So what is it, EXACTLY, that those hateful Muslims are so goddamned upset about???

I'm not really inclined towards answering loaded questions. Try rephrasing that statement.

QUESTION: That people who were indigenous to that part of the world still live in a tiny bit of it?

How would you react if a native American shows up at your doorstep, throws you and your family out and proclaims that your land is now his, because he was indigenous to that land?

QUESTION: That the 'victors' decided it was better for those people to have a tiny place to live and call home than to be homeless and/or 'exterminated'?

The Jews had already made Europe their home... in fact, they were thriving in Europe... more than any other minority.

After the fall of the Nazis, they weren't in danger anymore, so the threat of "jewish extermination" post WW2 is a complete farce. Even if they were entitled to a homeland, it should have been carved out of Europe, where they suffered... and not from Arab lands.

QUESTION: What is in Israel (geographically) that the "Arabs" want so desperately???

The Muslims were co-existing peacefully with the Jews and Christians before the establishment of Israel in 1948. So the real question is.... what was in that piece of land that the Jews wanted so desperately?

The only connection the Jews had to the land was a religious one. But ironically, Israel was founded by atheists and secularists.... and stands today as a godless moral cesspool.

Not a far fetched, what we need is learn about each other without negative thinking, understand each other and respect for each other.
Mosque and church can be next to each other with harmony.
us.metro.news.viva.co.id...
satuharapan.com...
utamanews.com...

Christian, muslim, hindu, and budhist can live in harmony in one place.
oase.kompas.com...

Nothing is impossible if we really try it.

Originally posted by maung
Christian, muslim, hindu, and budhist can live in harmony in one place.

I'm thinking only in the afterlife can that happen.

Here?? No. There is too much ignorance and egotism. And there are too many 'religious' people with their own agendas. And there is too much error ... error of people running around and claiming to know what God wants because their religious leader claims to be speaking for God ... when in fact that religious leader is/was an idiot who wouldn't recognize God if he/she tripped over Him.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

How would you react if a native American shows up at your doorstep, throws you and your family out and proclaims that your land is now his, because he was indigenous to that land?

I would agree with him, actually. What happened to the indigenous people here at the hands of the colonists was awful. But I DIDN'T DO IT - so, I would ask the person if we could share the place. Work together to make it more productive than I can do on my own.

Also, thank you for your post to Charles - it answered my other question (loaded or not).

You may have missed or skimmed over the many times I have said that I don't care about Israel. I really don't. And I also don't think the U.S. should be policing the whole world, propping up puppet governments (Bribing them), sending ammo or arms or troops, or trying to "negotiate" any treaty amongst other countries.

Overbearing, pushy, and obnoxious is how I see U.S.'s foreign policy right now - and a LARGE part of why I voted for Obama was because I bought his lies, that he would stop foreign intervention. I had Ron Paul signs in my yard - I switched to Republican from Independent so that I could participate in the caucus process....

when it became clear that he was shoved aside by the GOP, I switched back to Independent. I can't impeach Obama on my own, can I? Is it my fault he lied? No. You two are sometimes very difficult to deal with - and I know I'm no picnic when I get my hackles up.

But, can't we at least try to see both sides? I concede that I have learned more from you two than I was aware of before. I'm just sick of the hostility and "revenge" mentality of the world "leaders".

We people of the world are the real force behind all systems...without us governments,religions,corporations and all supposedly "leaders of the world" will be nothing and with us they are everything....So it all comes down to you and me really....I think information and knowledge is the first and most important step towards understanding and respect for different cultures and traditions....Nothing will change unless we change ourselves...Peace.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Dear sk0rpi0n,

QUESTION: So what is it, EXACTLY, that those hateful Muslims are so goddamned upset about???
I'm not really inclined towards answering loaded questions. Try rephrasing that statement.

They are upset because they can no longer tolerate Jews living near them in any number. They are upset because time after time, the military might of Islam has been defeated by the soldiers of that tiny piece of land. They are upset that they can't show total dominance of the Jews to their followers to demonstrate the strength of Islam. (I may, of course be wrong, but it makes more sense than anything else I've heard.)

How would you react if a native American shows up at your doorstep, throws you and your family out and proclaims that your land is now his, because he was indigenous to that land?

I'd throw him off again, because the fact that his ancestors roamed over the land centuries before (they didn't believe in owning it) gives them no ownership right now.

QUESTION: That the 'victors' decided it was better for those people to have a tiny place to live and call home than to be homeless and/or 'exterminated'?
The Jews had already made Europe their home... in fact, they were thriving in Europe... more than any other minority.

Obviously, they didn't want that to be their home, they wanted to return to what is now Israel.

Even if they were entitled to a homeland, it should have been carved out of Europe, where they suffered... and not from Arab lands.

What an odd idea. You really don't like the idea of an international agreement putting the Jews in Israel, but you're great with an international agreement putting them in Paris or somewhere.

So, we're making progress. You really have not much difficulty with giving the Jews a homeland, you just don't want to give up a square inch of Muslim land. You want someone else to do it. Sorry, you lose some freedom of choice when you are forced to sign surrender papers.

The Muslims were co-existing peacefully with the Jews and Christians before the establishment of Israel in 1948. So the real question is.... what was in that piece of land that the Jews wanted so desperately?

Actually, a better question is, have you forgotten the Genocide of Armenian Christians at the hands of Turkish Muslims from 1915 to 1920? Not to mention the millions killed when Islam swept through Europe and North Africa. I forgot, the Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928, declaring that "Jihad is the way." Jihad against . . .? They were supposedly at peace, remember?

Oh, and what was in the land? The land itself. It is their home. They didn't see it as a gold or uranium mine.

The only connection the Jews had to the land was a religious one.

Plus an internationally recognized legal agreement giving it to them.

But ironically, Israel was founded by atheists and secularists.... and stands today as a godless moral cesspool.

"But ironically, Islam was founded by . . . and stands today as a . . . . " Your name calling goes both ways. Please don't do it, it is beneath your dignity.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

I've taken a breath and calmed down. I'm safe to be around now. (At least, I think I am, let's see how it goes.)

you think the muslims here are afraid of you either way?
you are only making your integrity safe by going away when it gets too emotional as you are at a risk of making statements that may not portray you how you want to be seen.

So people like you,
sk0rpi0n, and the Iranian president
are saying that the Jewish people shouldn't have a state, or their state
should be nowhere near the Holy
Land.

people like us have an allergy to aggression, oppression and injustices done to anyone and especially to our brothers and sisters.
Zionists are not using just means to achieve whatever their goals are.
Do you think the illegal settlements should stop? Do you think your darling israel should go back to UN decided borders? Or you would counter the above questions by finger pointing?
If zionist are so upright and saintly then they should lead by example and the same applies to you that you address the above points rather than diverting and i have high expectations of your promise to be honest.

Even more surprising to me is why the
Jewish people shouldn't have Israel.
Certainly, the objection isn't that they
are strangers, there were Jews there
centuries before Islam even existed.

Time for another history lesson. Jews were not allowed anywhere near Jerusalem when christians held it.
When Umar r.a. was handed the keys of Jerusalem the christians made an agreement that jews were not to be allowed to settle there.
It was Umar r.a. who opened it for jews desiring pilgrimage.
When the crusaders captured it, they slaughtered muslims and jews alike.
Saladin recaptured it and then muslims, christians and jews were living peacefully together, even babysitting each other's babies till the colonialists came and made a blood mess by handing it to zionists who have no love for peace and want to continuously expand at the expense of displacing my brothers and sisters. I don't like that they have to live like prisioners in their own land. I don't like that IDF decides if they can or cannot go to school or hospital or visit a relative. I don't like it at all and i want it to end.

If
the objection is somehow based on the idea that they were given the land
by others (the UN, Britain, etc.) as far
as I know, all national borders were
fixed by conquest or international
agreement. You may not like it, but
that's how it's done.

www.ifamericansknew.org/history/

For centuries there was no such
conflict. In the 19th century the land of Palestine was inhabited by a
multicultural population –
approximately 86 percent Muslim, 10
percent Christian, and 4 percent
Jewish – living in peace.

In the late 1800s a group in Europe decided to colonize this land. Known
as Zionists, they represented an
extremist minority of the Jewish
population. Their goal was to create a
Jewish homeland, and they
considered locations in Africa and the Americas, before settling on Palestine. At first, this
immigration created
no problems.
However, as more
and more Zionists
immigrated to Palestine – many with
the express wish of
taking over the land
for a Jewish state –
the indigenous
population became increasingly alarmed. Eventually, fighting broke out, with
escalating waves of violence. Hitler's
rise to power, combined with Zionist
activities to sabotage efforts to place
Jewish refugees in western countries,
led to increased Jewish immigration to Palestine, and conflict grew.

Finally, in 1947 the United Nations decided to intervene. However, rather
than adhering to the principle of “self-
determination of peoples,” in which
the people themselves create their
own state and system of government,
the UN chose to revert to the medieval strategy whereby an outside power
divides up other people’s land. Under
considerable
Zionist pressure,
the UN
recommended
giving away 55% of Palestine to a
Jewish state –
despite the fact
that this group
represented only
about 30% of the total population,
and owned under
7% of the land.

There are complaints about the West
Bank, Gaza, and the Sinai? In 1967
those didn't exist, it was all part of
Israel. The only reason we know
those names is that Israel offered them
up to attain a secure peace. You'll notice that the land has been taken
but the peace hasn't been delivered.
Isn't that an injustice?

you mean the land they captured in a "pre-emptive" attack?
Has it been really given back? Can i directly go to Gaza or West Bank?

And if there is Muslim violence
primarily to oppose Jewish
"oppression," why are almost all of
those killed by Muslim violence,
Muslims? If this is a concern about the West
Bank and Gaza, why are Muslims
killing and destroying in Africa and
Asia? This paragraph is not an argument,
but only my perception.

lets keep your percieved complains aside and not make a quick and wrong judgement by pooling unrelated events just because it has people of one religion involved.

reply to post by charles1952

I'd throw him off again, because the fact that his ancestors roamed over the land centuries before (they didn't believe in owning it) gives them no ownership right now.

Exactly!
The same applies to the Jews in Israel today. Just because the Jews ancestors roamed that land centuries ago... doesn't mean they are entitled to it now. Yet, you seem to think we need

. You really have not much difficulty with giving the Jews a homeland, you just don't want to give up a square inch of Muslim land.

For the same reason that you wouldn't give up a piece of land that the native Americans once lived on. I'm sure you don't have a problem with Native Americans having their oown land.... so long as its not on your backyard.

"But ironically, Islam was founded by . . . and stands today as a . . . . " Your name calling goes both ways.

It isn't name calling... its a historical fact that Israel was indeed founded by atheists and secularists. I'm not attacking the religion of the Jews, but rather the political entity that was founded by the Jews founded. Try and differentiate between the two.

Plus an internationally recognized legal agreement giving it to them.

I'm sure you wouldn't respect an internationally recognized legal agreement... where you had no say in things - to give up your lands to the Native Americans?

Similarly, the Palestinians who did not have a say in this "internationally recognized legal agreement"... need not accept the decision of a foreign party regarding ownership of their land.

reply to post by logical7

Dear logical7,

It may be helpful if I spend one post talking about me and my goals. There might be some confusion here.

you think the muslims here are afraid of you either way?
you are only making your integrity safe by going away when it gets too emotional as you are at a risk of making statements that may not portray you how you want to be seen.

I most sincerely hope that no one is afraid of me, ever. I want to talk to people and learn from them, not frighten them. I also know how much harm can be done with an ill-chosen word. I'm not worried very much about protecting my integrity, somehow that seems to be built in for me, but I am worried about saying something hateful, or something that brings others to anger. Winning an individual is more important than winning an argument.

I also believe that war is the absolute last resort to solve a situation. Throughout history, with the possible exception of the last 60 years, wars have largely resolved problems but at a terrible cost. i would like to avoid any more, if it is at all possible.

One philosophy which has been mentioned is to seek revenge for ills done against a people. That is understandable, but it runs into practical problems. Basically, nearly every people has suffered at the hands of every nearby country at one time or another. Canada, Britain, and Mexico have all invaded the US. Just about everybody in Europe has invaded everybody else, Africa has seen attacks both by countries and tribes. Our history has been a mess.

We must ask if we want revenge, or peace. If revenge, the country one takes revenge against will feel the need to get revenge of their own, and war will continue unabated. Arab nations have had several "turns at bat" to get revenge on Israel, without significant success. They can continue trying or be willing to stop.

Perhaps an American can have no real say on this question. Nor can a Brazilian, German, Frenchman, or Tibetan. If this is between Israel and the Arab states and everyone else can butt out, then go to it. Don't ask for approval or disapproval from anyone, just let the countries do what they have to do and get it over with.

But my own preference is to say, "Well, at least we got back much of what we lost back in '67. Let's just call an end to the fighting and make the best of what we've got. If it's better for the Palestinians in the West Bank to emmigrate to Jordan, then let's make it happen and get resettlement expenses from the UN. We can shift the Gazans to Saudi or some place, and they'll be happier, too."

The idea I'm proposing is to learn to live with what you have. War hasn't been able to change it, unless everybody is counting on nukes to destroy Israel. Diplomacy has gone about as far as it can. Israel has been surrendering land for peace for about as long as they're willing to. It looks like we;re getting to the place where there has to be a war or a long-term peace. I much prefer the peace.

But, as I said, if the Arab states believe the only solution is to eliminate a state set aside for the Jews near Jerusalem, then they might as well get started with the war, or look as feeble as the US is beginning to look.

I don't want Israel to expand. I don't think they want to, beyond the question of Jerusalem and some square miles of land inside what appears to be natural borders. I don't want the US to dance to anyone's tune, but I have no problem with working with allies to further common goals.

I'm really not trying to defend or attack people, even though it looks exactly like that. I want to attack the idea that widespread, potentially WW III level violence is the way to solve this. Everybody should stop clamoring for war, death, destruction, etc. If a country or countries decide they're going to war anyway, then do it and get it over with.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


This was certainly helpful, thank you for expanding on your earlier thoughts.

I keep going back to sk0rp's suggestion about the Native Americans being given "land" - they have - and for many Americans, it IS in their "backyard". There are so-called 'reservations' in many states - if not most, and they are allowed to make their own laws, have their own courts, etc., (it's been awhile since I studied this in depth for a novel I was then writing, based on the Bureau of Land Management, eminent domain, and Native/vs Immigrant Descendant Americans.) Yes, they have internal problems that relate directly to having lost their lands - and yes, many, many of them were slaughtered or stolen from their families or are now living in abject poverty...

I studied the Ute tribe in particular, and learned a great deal about the history of the U.S. expansion vis a vis the Native "displacement" and efforts to "aculturate" them. It was - and remains - a stressful situation, and there were (at least in the 1980s) two separate reservations, one that was striving to get along in the U.S. culture, and the other was devolving into drunken misery.

BUT - no one is threatening war or asking the Native population's descendants to give up more and more land - nor are Immigrant/Colonials descendants threatening them with less and less, which would cause certain violence and negative ramifications.

As for as "my backyard" goes - I grew up in a small college town in the Midwest which is the location of the ONLY Native American University. We had Native students walking up and down our street every day, all day, and all night. Sometimes my folks would awaken to find one of them "sleeping off a drinking binge" in our yard, or on our porch!

No police were called - no trouble was made, it was honestly no big deal. My brothers and I would often walk to the student union and 'hang out' with the students - my high school used THEIR stadium for home football games, and I attended MANY pow-wows and other events there.

IT was NOT a PROBLEM. The cultures were different, yes, but it was allowed. ANOTHER example of tolerance in the United States. This is why I see no problem with "sharing". Same goes for the "Mexicans." THEY WERE HERE FIRST!! and the U.S. should recognize that.

I understand the indignance of the people of Palestine (why sk0rp and log7 are so excitable about it is kind of confusing for me - neither of them are Palestinian or live in the region)....
the problem is political, and not really linked to "religion".

From my largely indifferent and very limited foreign perspective in terms of Middle-East and sectarian/holy wars, that is. As I said, I've learned from s and l, but I believe perhaps if they would concede to having learned something from us, and all contributors in these forums, we could move forward, with at least our detached philosophical perspectives being truly addressed, rather than fighting over history or "ideologies." I have worked and lived among Mexican immigrants (legal or not), and had NO PROBLEMS getting along with them.

Neither you nor I are "Zionists".....none of us are "Mexicans" that I know of, or "Native Americans" - in this thread (though many are on the boards)....and ALL of us in this thread are concerned "observers" and "outsiders" to the Middle East. Tyranny OF anyone BY anyone is wrong. But calling people thousands of miles away "brothers and sisters" and basing hatred and continued hostility on very shaky and uncentralized "Muslim siblings" is making things worse. It is NOT contributing to peace. All of this "blaming" and saber-rattling and finger-pointing is useless in the "here and now". I wonder how many Palestinians are actually "relatives" to the people in this thread hating on Isreal.

I do agree with just countires get on with whatever they have to do - I strongly object to ANY intervention in Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Pakistan, or Iran. Let them do whatever, live without their participation or respect, and leave them alone - bombing world heritage sites and religious buildings and shrines is ASININE, just as much as killing civilians and displacing indigenous peoples. Perhaps we'll never know what REALLY happened on 9/11 - but certainly the aftermath is in our power to control, if we ALL step up and say NO MORE.

WE'RE SUPPOSED TO LEARN from past mistakes - NOT CONTINUE THEM, or continue to "hate on" each other because of them. It happened. Period. Time for us ALL to get over it and come together as one global population.

Really. HOW HARD IS THAT TO FATHOM?

Thanks again for your continued discussion, everyone.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by maung
Christian, muslim, hindu, and budhist can live in harmony in one place.

I'm thinking only in the afterlife can that happen.

Here?? No. There is too much ignorance and egotism. And there are too many 'religious' people with their own agendas. And there is too much error ... error of people running around and claiming to know what God wants because their religious leader claims to be speaking for God ... when in fact that religious leader is/was an idiot who wouldn't recognize God if he/she tripped over Him.

Read the article use translator from indonesian to english. That place really exist in bali.
Like a plant, even if it is only one little seed, if we keep it with care, one day it might end up with forest.