Michael Hastings – “Foul Play Or Not” – Do you have a plausible theory?

To keep this thread up to date with information I find interesting/valuable from other threads...here is a link to a post by JBA2848 in a thread regarding the story in the LA Weekly (by Gene Maddau)...
JBA's post.
Thanks JBA'!

reply to post by WanDash


Check your link.

I think something is hosed. I followed the link to page 13. Then opened that link to the LAWeekly Ad Page. No Story.

reply to post by ShadellacZumbrum

That was funky!
Thanks!

A poster on another thread mentioned the suspicion emanating from the LoudLabs video of the Mercedes running the red light at Santa Monica.
I commented, there, but would like to bring the thoughts presented in that comment…here…as well as one or two thoughts that have percolated in the time that has passed.

While this is the most unappealing thread…or manner of discussing the topic, apparently in all of ATS-dom…the one thing it has provided any who’ve participated and/or followed, is an opportunity to see through obvious fallacies in some of the speculations that pervade the “more popular” threads.
I realize, now, that…while there are numerous/many bright and brilliant minds roaming these halls…the majority of participants do not want to think past “barf”.
Knee-jerk responses…
Repetitive mumbo-jumbo…
Reminds me of all my “growing-up years” in a southern Pentacostal church – “Amen, Brother – Preach It!” … (I could tell some stories…)
All they care about are pats on the back, high fives, and/or “showing TPTB that they’re gonna have some real trouble if they ever try any of that stuff (whatever that stuff is) ‘round these parts”… “I ain’t goin’ down without a fight!”

It’s not just here. I’ve seen it on other sites where people are discussing the same topic. There are those that are certain they’ve ascertained exactly and precisely…without a doubt – By God I’ve NEVER BEEN WRONG…AND I TELL YOU – there was an explosion before the car hit the tree --- and…the car was only going 35-45 mph…and…and…and…and…

Whew!

Anyway… ShadellacZumbrum brought up a part of the coroner’s report that I had noticed…but hadn’t given much thought to…until said Shadellac’ reminded me.

CAUTION: Skip over the quoted text if you prefer not to see the coroner’s description of “cause of death”.

I will quote the Coroner’s report:

“…The cause of death was massive blunt force trauma consistent with a high speed front-end impact to the sole of the right foot and to the front of the torso. There was transmission of force superiorly through the right foot and leg, pelvis and vertebral column into the head. There was also severe impact to the anterior chest and upper abdomen with resulting rib fractures and anterior displacement of the heart and upper thoracic aorta (deceleration injury). Death was very rapid, within seconds. Loss of consciousness was likely instantaneous upon impact.

What we can derive from the security camera video…is a speeding car.
We do not know, for sure, that the brake lights aren’t on…until, near the end…we see them brighten – and then we can deduce that they were “not on” previously.

Reading the coroner’s “cause of death” was kind of shocking, to me… It was as if “high speed front-end collision with the force of collision transferred to the body through the sole of the right foot” was a common-enough cause of death to have attained “catch phrase” status in the profession.
After thinking about it, though – it seems quite logical.
One might assume under normal circumstances, that the right foot (or left, whichever the case may be) would be applied to the brake pedal…upon impact… Though, I’m sure there are occasions when it is applied to the accelerator.
In any case…our oddity begins with the fact that – “cause of death” is associated with the sole of the right foot.

The car had been travelling as if the driver had the accelerator pedal pressed to the floor for the last 251 feet (at least).

The car had been, at least slightly out of control during the first 100 or so feet of those last 251 feet…and, had managed to keep from losing control entirely (would have been a common mistake to overcorrect after losing control)…and, instead, found a way of “almost gracefully” climbing onto the median about 195 feet into the video segment.

Very shortly after mounting the median, the rear-end begins to rise…in one frame…
Rises more in the next frame…
Rises more in the next frame – and it appears that the brake lights are just beginning to brighten…
Rises more in the next frame – the brake lights are now blaring…
Rises more in the next – The brake lights are still brilliant…
Continues rising – the brake lights have dimmed significantly…and the headlights are extinguished…
Continues moving forward in the “risen” state – brake lights have returned to running tail lights…and the southeasterly flying & glowing object is clearly visible…
In the following frame…all lights (except the previously-noted residual light) are extinguished…
Including the first frame that shows all lights extinguished – there are five frames of activity before the first light of explosion.

Here’s the question…
If the “death blow” was delivered through the sole of his right foot… And, if that signifies that his right foot was pressed “to the floor” on one or the other pedals… Which pedal was it?
If, as I have opined, the car hit the tree in the first frame that shows the rear-end rising…and his right foot was on the accelerator pedal at the time (to the floor)…what are we saying?
Did he just then realize that the tree wasn’t going to move…so he changed his mind – and tried to “brake”?
Did the immediate “jolt” or “jerk” of the impact cause his foot to “slip over” to the brake pedal?
Did his right foot remain on the accelerator…and the force of collision move his left foot onto the brake pedal?

Or – do you have a better (more learned – better guessed – etc) hypothesis?

I would think that – for the coroner’s “cause of death” to be correct – we’re going to have to find that his right foot was ‘planted’ firmly enough…wherever it was…to have appropriately accepted enough transfer of force, to cause the traumatic damage ascribed thereto.

And – by the way… In grabbing the screen-shots that turned the last 251 feet into 27 (rather than 22) pic’s…I ended up with one more shot of the residual light…and…after further study – I’m fairly confident that it is not the “third tail light”… I am fairly confident that this “light” is on the underside of the car.
Again – could be the “glow” from where the drive-shaft disengaged…or something else.

Thanks. Hope to see you…soon.

reply to post by WanDash

All they care about are pats on the back, high fives, and/or “showing TPTB that they’re gonna have some real trouble if they ever try any of that stuff (whatever that stuff is) ‘round these parts”… “I ain’t goin’ down without a fight!” It’s not just here. I’ve seen it on other sites where people are discussing the same topic. There are those that are certain they’ve ascertained exactly and precisely…without a doubt – By God I’ve NEVER BEEN WRONG…AND I TELL YOU

Yep, been going on my nerves too. I just gave up in another thread where these character traits are mixed with a complete lack of empathy for the (long term) suffering of another human being. I really appreciate the way you present your thoughts and findings on the Hastings case. Also how you come back to correct and explain mistakes, include the viewpoints and findings of others while never forgetting to give them credit. It should be normal but sadly seems to be the exception. You seem to be a very decent person!

I may have found another strange connection - nothing that proves foul play re Hastings - but possibly a piece of the puzzle to the bigger picture:

Dead BofA Intern Moritz Erhardt - A Would-be Whistleblower?

I know this seems far out and it probably is but maybe just file this bit of information away in some corner of your mind as I did...


Oh, just noted that Biggs is getting on the Snowden/ProjectPM connection bandwagon too now:



This is the video he was linking in the tweet (not impressed, am I missing something?):




and the link from the other tweet:

Blue cabinet/Endgame Systems

And even more Biggs/Endgame tweets:




We are sooo running in circles in our quest for the truth!

Originally posted by WanDash

Originally posted by heavenlyalchemy
...No I'm open and was just from what I had seen in other videos. I want the truth. I wish they had included the rest of the video where the other cars were seen passing the camera that would give a better perspective.
...I can agree that all that happened from the video, the thing I can't agree with is the tire marks being left the whole way. There would be marks where and after he bottomed out but after that there wouldn't be marks.

I would like to see the other cars passing, as well.
I would also like to see video (from the same camera specifically - but also from the camera that is on the alley-side of the restaurant) shot during daylight...(prior to the utility cage being destroyed)...for better visual references.
As to the "tire marks...the whole way"... I don't think the report claimed such. I think their choice of language was pretty specific in that regard. It really doesn't even go as far as to say that the tire marks were seen in the #1 lane... Just that the tire marks were in the #2 lane trailing in a southeastern direction...
Gonna have to sign off for the night...
Sorry - Got stuff to do in the morning.
Thanks for the conversation! See ya later!

Thank you for a deeper look into this.

It looks as though all of our speculation about tire marks, was off. Going back to the report after our conversation it was still no clearer.


On page two paragraph two under the Informant/Witness Statement the wording:

"Tire marks were observed in the #2 lane of Highland Ave, south of Melrose, which trailed off in an eastern direction toward the center grass median, with additional tire marks in the grassy area, which then trailed toward the tree"

Then on page 3 under the heading Scene Description the wording:

"Tire marks were observed in the #2 lane of southbound traffic, south of Melrose Ave, which trailed in a southeastern direction leading toward the grass center median were (sic) additional apparent tire marks were observed."

Wanting to gain more information on the term "Tire Marks" did a bit of research here are a few of the links for anyone interested.

EDT Engineres

Learning for Life Law Enforcement Study Book

Expert Pages Language of Tire Marks

It seems the report is ambiguous in its wording, there are three main types of tire marks.

Yaw marks are left by a tire that is still rolling but is simultaneously sliding laterally. They are always curved and initiated by a steering input.

Acceleration Scuffs, if the drive tires are spinning faster than the vehicle speed, heavy burn marks will be left on the pavement at the inital point of acceleraton and the tire rib defintion may be visible in the center of the imprint.

Decleration marks occur when tires are spinning slower than the vehicle because of braking or downshifting. When a vehicle brakes a greater portion of the vehicles weight is transmitted to the outer edges of the front tires. This causes parallel shoulder skid marks to be pronounced. Tire wear and inflation also play a factor in how pronounced the mark of the tire will be on the asphalt.


Seeing as the tire marks statements are ambiguous probably the "trailed ins" in the rest of the report don't mean what I thought they did, thinking they were being concise. They could mean there were breaks in the trail, then again it could mean they were trailing continually, Do you know if there is a concise report that goes into the specifics?

Also in the EDT Engineers PDF there are images of each as well as images of scrape and gouge marks, funny there aren't any of these described on the released report if the car bottomed out.

Edit to add: Just speculation but after looking at the deceleration meaning...what if MH tried to downshift or use the emergency break because he couldn't slow down the car with the breaks? That would account for the car swerving to the right wouldn't it?

And thank you for pointing out I was being jerky, it's always good to be able to self analyze to see if one is loosing perspective.

I wasn't looking for back slaps on the other site, just trying to keep the story bumped so the story could get the most exposure seeing as that site is a regular hang for newsies and such. Instead of just adding the words bump I thought responding to others in the thread would do that. The stories there are lost so quickly because of the heavy volume.. Just for the record I wasn't referring to you then.

Still looking at tire mark information, a couple of sites on speed estimation with charts that are used for accidents came up:

Determining Vehicle Speeds From Skid Marks (wouldn't this be something we could use knowing where Michael bottomed out?)
www.harristechnical.com...

Drag factor:

A drag factor is the term for the tire/road surface interface when determining vehicle speeds.
There are several ways to find the drag factor but the most accurate is to conduct a series of
test skids with an exemplar vehicle equipped with a recording accelerometer and chalk bumper
gun. Unless you have formal training in conducting skid tests, it is not recommended that you
attempt skid tests.

To provide some examples of drag factor values, drag factor ranges for various typical road
surfaces are:
Portland Cement: 0.55 to 1.20
Asphalt: 0.50 to 0.90
Gravel: 0.40 to 0.80
Ice: 0.10 to 0.25
Snow: 0.10 to 0.55

An example:

A car skids to a stop, leaving four skid marks with an average length of 60 feet. The road is
asphalt. Skid tests reveal a drag factor of 0.75. Since all four wheels were braking, the braking
efficiency (n) is 100% or 1.00. The value for "D" is 60. The value for "f" is 0.75. Insert the values
into the formula and a speed of 36.7 miles per hour is determined (S = 36.7).

It is important to understand this is a MINIMUM speed for the vehicle at the beginning of the
skid. It is not possible to find all of the skidmark given it starts out as a light shadow becoming
progressively darker. And this formula assumes the vehicle comes to a stop at the end of the
skid without hitting anything, like another car or tree or bridge abutment.

If there is a speed value at the end of the visible skid, as when the car strikes something, the
residual speed value must be combined with the calculated minimum skid speed. You must not
add a residual speed to the calculated minimum speed.

reply to post by WanDash


Well, I was up really early this morning because I wanted to suffer a case of "Dumb @$$" and do some testing of my own. . ..

Firstly let me point out this quote from HeavenlyAlchemy, Which I find very IRONICLY COMICAL After the Fact .. .. .. . ...

Unless you have formal training in conducting skid tests, it is not recommended that you attempt skid tests.

Let me just respond to that by saying .. .. . .. . "Now You Tell Me" .. .. .. . .Not Funny ..

So Anyways .. .

I wanted to check out a couple of things as far as skid marks and how the foot plays a role in stopping the vehicle or accelerating for that matter.

I used an old 1986 Chevy Chevette 5 Speed.. Hardly a Mercedes by any stretch, but it is something that I wouldn't Britch about if I had crashed it. Believe it or not it still has quite a bit of get-up and go. Make note that I live out in the country in the middle of nowhere so I was only a Danger to myself, Not others.

First I took off on a straight away got to about 50mph and slammed on the brakes.
2 things I noted
1 - When I hit the brakes I used my right foot at just between the ball and the arch.
2 - When I got out to look at the marks I noticed that the skids where thick where I had first applied the brakes and then they thinned out. I also noticed that they were almost complete straight.

I repeated that test with the same results.

Next I attempted tp leave skids from a swerve.( this part was fairly Dangerous ).
I started and got up to 45 mph then I jerked the wheel left and then back right. When I jerked back tight that is when the tires started to squeal. I over corrected and then jerked back left again all the while the tires were squealing. When I regained control I stopped the car and had a looked.
2 things I noted
1 - when correcting in the opposite direction of the skid, your foot slips off of the accelerator in the opposite direction of the correction.
2 - When I got out to look I could see the swerve marks that were left in both instances. Both had a funny looking "J" shape. The marks start thin, then get think where the hook is and then thin again.

I repeated that test but this time I was going about 50mph and I jerked the wheel to the right and then left. This is where things became Very Busy. As I corrected back right I could feel the @$$-end sliding so I jerked the wheel back to the left. That is when the left side of the car started to come up off of the ground. I am not sure how far off the ground but it was enough to get my brain to correct back to the right and land the left side. After I stopped I waited for a couple of minutes for the adrenaline to clear the plaque from my arteries. Then I got out to look.

The results were the same as the skid marks had a hook to them, thin at the start, thick in the middle, and thin at the end.

Those tests were done in asphalt.


Then I did a head on test with a tree at 10 mph. Don't get too excited it was really nothing. I have a dirt lane beside my property they dead ends into a tree. So I drove down the lane at about 10 mph with my foot on the accelerator. On impact with the tree I noted that my foot pressed flat up against the accelerator and slide upwards on the pedal. I noticed that it was pretty much even pressure on the ball and the heel. I also made note that there was no damage to the bumper.

Then I repeated the test again. This time just before I hit the tree I applied the brake within a half second. I noticed that when I first applied the brakes I used the ball of my foot, but on impact the pedal slid to my arch or should I say that my arch slid to the pedal.
I repeated that same test with the same results.

Now, if we could see pictures of the skid marks we might be able to determine if they were braking skids or swerve skids.

Also, the impact tests keep replaying i my mind over and over again.

IF he was applying the accelerator I think his foot might have slid UP the pedal. To see this for yourself, Sit in your car and apply the accelerator. Notice how you use the ball of your foot (No heel involved), and then mash the accelerator down completely and see where your foot is.

IF he was applying the brakes then I could see how he may have used the arch of his foot but slid to his heel on impact.

I am suggesting that he was "Mashing" the brakes on impact.

Make note that Heavy SeatBelt usage was maintained during these test and that no animals were run over.

Originally posted by heavenlyalchemy
…
It looks as though all of our speculation about tire marks, was off. Going back to the report after our conversation it was still no clearer.
…
It seems the report is ambiguous in its wording, there are three main types of tire marks.

I agree… The language is ambiguous.

…Seeing as the tire marks statements are ambiguous probably the "trailed ins" in the rest of the report don't mean what I thought they did, thinking they were being concise. They could mean there were breaks in the trail, then again it could mean they were trailing continually. Do you know if there is a concise report that goes into the specifics?

Again – I agree… I interpreted “trailing” to suggest “obvious direction – but diminishing in pronunciation or distinguishability”… Like Hansel & Gretel…with their “trail” of bread crumbs.

Also in the EDT Engineers PDF there are images of each as well as images of scrape and gouge marks, funny there aren't any of these described on the released report if the car bottomed out.

I would have expected some scrape/s & gouge/s too.

Edit to add: Just speculation but after looking at the deceleration meaning...what if MH tried to downshift or use the emergency break because he couldn't slow down the car with the breaks? That would account for the car swerving to the right wouldn't it?

If, in looking at “deceleration” you are referring to injuries ascribed thereto…I believe we are simply considering the literal deceleration that took place as a result of the vehicle going from “high-speed” to “no-speed”. In other words – injuries not necessarily caused by “blunt force”…but by the physical body tending to continue going in the same direction it had been...at the same speed it had been…but being physically restrained from doing so.
My thoughts on it…

And thank you for pointing out I was being jerky, it's always good to be able to self analyze to see if one is loosing perspective.

To join the “jerk” club…you must pass through me, as I am the dishonorary chairman thereof.
~Apologies

… the other site…is a regular hang for newsies and such.

Great idea. Guess I thought the same thing. Thought they wanted to move it forward. Instead, I’m guessing they were really just using the Blogger’s stories as a platform to advertise themselves.

Originally posted by heavenlyalchemy
Still looking at tire mark information, a couple of sites on speed estimation with charts that are used for accidents came up:

Determining Vehicle Speeds From Skid Marks (wouldn't this be something we could use knowing where Michael bottomed out?)
www.harristechnical.com...

Drag factor:

A drag factor is the term for the tire/road surface interface when determining vehicle speeds.
There are several ways to find the drag factor but the most accurate is to conduct a series of
test skids with an exemplar vehicle equipped with a recording accelerometer and chalk bumper
gun. Unless you have formal training in conducting skid tests, it is not recommended that you
attempt skid tests.
...

Thanks for that... Maybe we'll get to apply it (or - some of it) when/if the Traffic Division divulges their report.
You & Shadellac' appear more capable of handling those kinds of formulas than I.

Originally posted by ShadellacZumbrum
reply to post by WanDash

 

...IF he was applying the accelerator I think his foot might have slid UP the pedal. To see this for yourself, Sit in your car and apply the accelerator. Notice how you use the ball of your foot (No heel involved), and then mash the accelerator down completely and see where your foot is.
...IF he was applying the brakes then I could see how he may have used the arch of his foot but slid to his heel on impact.
...I am suggesting that he was "Mashing" the brakes on impact.
...Make note that Heavy SeatBelt usage was maintained during these test and that no animals were run over.

Thanks for risking life and limb...to move the discussion forward!
When you say that "...he was 'Mashing' the brakes on impact...", are you suggesting that
- he was 'Mashing' them prior to impacting the tree...or...
- going into the motion of 'Mashing" them, when it was evident he was going to impact the tree...or...
- quickly (in 1/4th of a second or so) switched from accelerator to brake pedal upon impacting the tree?

Do you see a need/requirement for the foot to be "firmly planted" on one or the other pedal - upon impact - for the resulting death-causing-injury?

reply to post by WanDash


Please allow me to elaborate and rephrase while I am at it.

Maybe he was Not "Mashing" the Brake, but I have good reason to believe that he had his foot on the brake at time of impact.

When you place your foot flat on the floor there is an even distribution of weight and the foot is working like it intended too.

Likewise, if your foot is on the accelerator, and because of the angle, when there is an impact your foot toe and heel both go flat to the angle and distribute the pressure evenly.

When you brake the weight is not distributed evenly as it is focused on one point at the arch of the foot. That is where the transfer of force took place. In My Opinion.

Do you see a need/requirement for the foot to be "firmly planted" on one or the other pedal - upon impact - for the resulting death-causing-injury?

Yes, and no. What I mean by that is, if his feet were flat on the floorboard that would have distributed the pressure.
If his foot were on the accelerator, on impact his foot would have laid flat and distributed the pressure evenly.

So, the only thing that really makes sense is that if the foot was on the brake the force would have been applied unevenly to the center of the arch. I believe that the uneven distribution could have easily translated through his leg, spine, and brain stem.

reply to post by MindBodySpiritComplex

Thank you, MindBodySpiritComplex...
Looks like this is going in a number of directions (meaning - looking into a number of different entities).
That is, surely, a part of what has been obscured by the "news" that has erupted since the coroner's report.
In my opinion, the questions surrounding the tragic death of Michael Hastings are not answered by the coroner's report --- except that, we might probably conclude that he was alive before hitting the tree (unless we're going to say that the coroner lied, or did not know what she was doing).

Originally posted by ShadellacZumbrum
reply to post by WanDash

 

...Maybe he was Not "Mashing" the Brake, but I have good reason to believe that he had his foot on the brake at time of impact.
...When you brake the weight is not distributed evenly as it is focused on one point at the arch of the foot. That is where the transfer of force took place. In My Opinion.
...if his feet were flat on the floorboard that would have distributed the pressure.
If his foot were on the accelerator, on impact his foot would have laid flat and distributed the pressure evenly.
...So, the only thing that really makes sense is that if the foot was on the brake the force would have been applied unevenly to the center of the arch. I believe that the uneven distribution could have easily translated through his leg, spine, and brain stem.

In part, what I'm getting is...you believe that the "death blow" would not have been delivered in the described manner...unless the force was transferred through the arch (as opposed to an even distribution along the foot).
For my part...I can see it going any number of ways...all culminating with the same effect. Whether it be through toe-pads, the arch or the heel...and even, perhaps, combinations of any and all of them...as long as the knee is "locked" (maybe the wrong term).
Unless there was an electrical-system malfunction that activated the brake lights upon impact...while they had not been "on" at any time prior-to-impact...I don't see how the force could have been delivered to the right foot through the brake pedal.
This is why I proposed the possibility that the disruption to momentum caused by initial impact might have "drawn" his left foot against the heretofore-unused brake pedal.
That is, obviously, only a hypothetical...to allow for the right foot remaining in fixed position long enough to transfer the force of impact to the rest of the body.
Guess I'll mull it over...
Thanks!

I don't know if this webpage has been posted yet, but after a little research I came upon this, and wanted to share it....I don't know how B.S. this is...or...as I think, it's for real.
wiki.echelon2.org...

Originally posted by jimmyx
I don't know if this webpage has been posted yet, but after a little research I came upon this, and wanted to share it....I don't know how B.S. this is...or...as I think, it's for real.
wiki.echelon2.org...

Thank you jimmyx
A lot of information there. Have you looked at any of the links, yet?
I'll get to that...in a while.
Appreciated!

Originally posted by WanDash

Originally posted by jimmyx
I don't know if this webpage has been posted yet, but after a little research I came upon this, and wanted to share it....I don't know how B.S. this is...or...as I think, it's for real.
wiki.echelon2.org...

Thank you jimmyx
A lot of information there. Have you looked at any of the links, yet?
I'll get to that...in a while.
Appreciated!

no, not yet.....but I will....of course with ATS being what it is, I wonder if data tracking packets will be dropped into my hard drive when I do?

Originally posted by jimmyx
...no, not yet.....but I will....of course with ATS being what it is, I wonder if data tracking packets will be dropped into my hard drive when I do?

Yes - thanks for reminding me...
Uhhh - do you happen to know your IP address (so I don't have to go through the trouble of looking it up)?

Originally posted by WanDash

Originally posted by jimmyx
...no, not yet.....but I will....of course with ATS being what it is, I wonder if data tracking packets will be dropped into my hard drive when I do?

Yes - thanks for reminding me...
Uhhh - do you happen to know your IP address (so I don't have to go through the trouble of looking it up)?

sorry wan...but as an old retired tech...that is simply to easy to find out, and I would have to order a drone strike if that happened

Originally posted by ShadellacZumbrum
reply to post by WanDash

 

Well, I was up really early this morning because I wanted to suffer a case of "Dumb @$$" and do some testing of my own. . ..

Firstly let me point out this quote from HeavenlyAlchemy, Which I find very IRONICLY COMICAL After the Fact .. .. .. . ...

Unless you have formal training in conducting skid tests, it is not recommended that you attempt skid tests.

Let me just respond to that by saying .. .. . .. . "Now You Tell Me" .. .. ..

. .Not Funny ..

Actually it was a quote from the article, reading comprehension does not seem to be a strong point with you, sadly. If it were you would do a better job of persuading everyone. Thanks for trying to discredit a professional in the field, showing your bias.

Could you please show the documents showing you are qualified?