The "Beyond God" questions

reply to post by 1Learner

Yes, the distinction between God and the world is the key point.
It's built into Biblical teaching, because it's implied by the claim that God created the world.
That concept means that God and the world have to be two different things.

Is this dualism?
When I offered my Definition of God, I argued that there were three classic ways of understanding the relation between God and the world.
There is Monism, which identifies them, so that the world is neither distinct nor independent.
There is Dualism, which regards the world as both distinct from and independent of God, so that God's role was to organise a pre-existing matter.
Finally Creation theory, which I maintain is half-way between these positions.
It is not Monism, because it posits a world distinct from God.
It is not pure Dualism, because it posits a world which depends upon God for its existence.
For which reason I have siggested the term "one-and-a-half-ism".

Can we say nothing about God except that he is distinct from the world?
The Bible presents the Creator God as one who communicates.
If our approach is Biblically based, we can make use of what he says about himself, as long as we use it cautiously.

reply to post by Ophiuchus 13

Thank you for those comments.
The value of understanding that "physical universe" categories don't apply to God or his relation to the world is that we are then warned off the temptation to look for something "beyond" God using the same physical universe categories.
In other words, it provides a possible answer to the "What came before God?" or "who made God?" questions- or rather it shows why they are not valid questions.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Ophiuchus 13

 

Thank you for those comments.
The value of understanding that "physical universe" categories don't apply to God or his relation to the world is that we are then warned off the temptation to look for something "beyond" God using the same physical universe categories.

Anytime DISRAELI I have checked out some of your threads in the past and see your conscious effort to enlighten us on some of the more inner core details of religion . That value understanding places THE who is MOST HIGHEST outside of physical universal perspectives/boundaries that try to think what is beyond THE within those closed perspectives. THE who IS already BEYOND... Following the same physical universe perspectives

Originally posted by DISRAELI
In other words, it provides a possible answer to the "What came before God?" or "who made God?" questions- or rather it shows why they are not valid questions.

Agreed

NAMASTE*******
LOVE LIGHT ETERNIA

god that created is some computers n the sphinx. the ones that control it think of us as beast of burden. they attach dimensional beings to us and use our love and fear as fuel. we are climbing a stairway of replicated worlds that soloman built. The truth of this is all around us in our music and movies. there are major clues. The best way to prove this is to watch the animals. They are us and our spirit resides on several levels of the stairway. you can use burlap to allow a spirit to come into this world. The ideal way would be to have a burlap staircase that goes as high as you can and as low as you can. this is utter maddness but it is what it is.

Originally posted by deadeyedick. this is utter maddness

You could be right.

reply to post by DISRAELI


do not deny that at all but am not the first to go mad in the view of the world but there is a wall between the two layers of that around us. once you break through you will find that which you came here for. this is a trap and i stayed behind to help.i choose a life of never ending obscurity and loneliness staying here as a stair. I gave up my kingdom and inheritance because the ladder would be broken without me. i get nothing but the pain of this world in return. The next rapture is in 18 yrs and by then my sacrifice will have been worth it because we will be complete and have the physical forms that we came here for and be in a world of our choosing. Surely you did not think star travel through the universe would be based on what we believe to know of the makeup of gravity and such. Giants are just people from a different stair on the ladder same as dinosaurs and most of what we believe to be fictional. Any of these stairs can be called to our world any time if i leave my throne at the right hand of the sphinx below us. utter maddness but just go ask the bugs and they will show you where to lay the burlap step.lol all my life i thought they were just clueless going in circles but they are trying to unite with their spirit and sometimes it is just a few feet out of reach for them

reply to post by DISRAELI


There is no time or space - there are concepts arising within the non conceptual.
Seeing concepts for what they are will reveal the non conceptual.

This is timeless being - it has never been any thing other. The belief in other is suffering. Do not worship other as there is just this one - and all concepts arise in it as it.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

I believe you are making the opposite mistake to the materialists, going to the oppsoite extreme.
Where they would deny that there was a God who made the world, you are denying that there was a real world to be made.
Your quotation from John only tells half the story.
Yes, the Word was with God, but only a few verses further down the Word became flesh.
The Biblical picture has two elements; the Creator God and the world that he created.
It is the Incarnation that brings the two elements together, when the Word becomes flesh, when God becomes man.

PS The meaning of "Incarnation"

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by 1Learner

 

Yes, the distinction between God and the world is the key point.
It's built into Biblical teaching, because it's implied by the claim that God created the world.
That concept means that God and the world have to be two different things.

God is the non conceptual - God is not a thing.
The world is a concept and is made out of words.

Words arise presently in presence as presence and make believe there is a world outside of what is actually present.
There is only this moment of presence and all ideas are contained in it.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

If "thing" is a category that belongs to the physical world, then it has to be conceded that God is not a "thing" either.
We are faced with the problem that all our words and concepts come from the physical world, and are therefore inadequate and not fully valid to describe what is not within it.

However, the Biblical claim is that God made the world, which means that in terms of Biblical philosophy there has to be a distinction between them.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

I believe you are making the opposite mistake to the materialists, going to the oppsoite extreme.
Where they would deny that there was a God who made the world, you are denying that there was a real world to be made.
Your quotation from John only tells half the story.
Yes, the Word was with God, but only a few verses further down the Word became flesh.
The Biblical picture has two elements; the Creator God and the world that he created.
It is the Incarnation that brings the two elements together, when the Word becomes flesh, when God becomes man.

PSThe meaning of "Incarnation"

The word, the concept is any concept or idea and man is no more than an idea arising presently. That idea takes on an identity, a mark, man is made believe in Gods image. The concept called man imagines time and space but never leaves presence. The father and son are one always. There is only Gods image and a bit of it separated itself out but is longing to find it's way back in. It longs for home.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

But that "imagining" would not be Creation, and so that Monistic approach is ruled out by the Biblical statement that God created the world.

"Creation" necessarily assumes a distinction between the Creator and what is created, so the distinction necessarily follows once the Biblical viewpoint has been taken.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

If "thing" is a category that belongs to the physical world, then it has to be conceded that God is not a "thing" either.
We are faced with the problem that all our words and concepts come from the physical world, and are therefore inadequate and not fully valid to describe what is not within it.

However, the Biblical claim is that God made the world, which means that in terms of Biblical philosophy there has to be a distinction between them.

What is the 'physical world'? Is it what you can see, smell, hear, taste or touch? Or are you speaking about what is in the mind - a construct that you believe in?
What is here right now is what there is but the mind builds a whole world? Is that the real world?
What is experienced is real. What is in mind is not necessarily true.
What is the difference between God and the world?

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

But that "imagining" would not be Creation, and so that Monistic approach is ruled out by the Biblical statement that God created the world.

"Creation" necessarily assumes a distinction between the Creator and what is created, so the distinction necessarily follows once the Biblical viewpoint has been taken.

There has never been any thing created - it is made, made up!!
There is only what is actually happening right now but the mind constructs more.
There is only presence and out of it and in it whole worlds made of time and space are dreamt.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

By "physical" world, I mean the whole of the created world.
The difference between God and the world is that God is the Creator, and the world is that which was created.
The fact that they relate as "Creator" and "created" means there must be a distinction between them.
In the same way that the communication between you and me necessarily assumes that we are two different people.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
There has never been any thing created - it is made, made up!!
.

As I said at the beginning, this thread is an exercise in Biblical philosophy, based on the premise that the Biblical statements are not made up, but communicated.
My conclusions follow from that premise.

I've come to understand the teachings of God being in the sky (above) as meaning outside of self and the constant search to reconnect to all that all that was, is, and will be. I keep going back to Stan Grof's work in our need to integrate with the spirit again (when born we were separated from that existence by the very nature of becoming a physical being). and the evidence he and his colleagues found regarding this.

It's almost as if the spirit realm is another dimension we all left and will one day return to. Scientifically it could be seen as energy while biblically as the ultimate (God). It also appears that people have lasting peace when they can get outside ego enough and reintegrate, with the most successful of these transformations including near death experiences.

reply to post by Dianec

Thank you for those comments.
If we think of God as someone with whom we need to make contact, then that would be more the Biblical approach.
The Bible presents God as one who communicates with us.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
There has never been any thing created - it is made, made up!!
.

As I said at the beginning, this thread is an exercise in Biblical philosophy, based on the premise that the Biblical statements are not made up, but communicated.
My conclusions follow from that premise.

I am saying that there has never been any thing created. There is just God, there is only this eternal presence but there is a belief in more.
God is not a thing and what this is right here and now is not a thing - it is all there is and all concepts arise and subside in it.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

The God who spoke in the Bible declared that God created the world.
The declaration that God created the world necessarily means a distinction between "God" and "the world".
Just as "i am talking to you" necessarily involves a distinction between "I" and "you".