An Atheist's Desperate Plea

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Greylorn

 

"Creator" and "god" are not synonymous in my mind, nor are they mutually inclusive.

No they (god/creator) would be at diametric odds EXCLUSIVELY repelling each other. Synonymous to me suggests symetry, or complaceant state of being, status, fixed, firm. Why are you confusing Creator with God; they are not the same.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


This one VHB you might have missed I think it went straight over your head like a dove of peace and joy, and humor. Christ, in mind and heart and spirit and truth isn't particularized, you see, it's a non-local, holographic phenomenon as a universal principal in demonstration of the lengths, the height the depth and the breath of the love of God, for you, and for me, and in the fullness of time and history for one and for all. It goes the WHOLE distance, right across the entire spectrum of all being and becoming so it's very expansive (and expensive too). Everyone is at Christ's table, eventually, at least that's my hope and prayer, but there's no need to reduce the spirit of Christ by lining him up as a particularized point of comparison with other mystics and sages. Why? Because what we do unto the least of our brothers we do it to him. His is a living spirit of humility, and great mirth and charm.

And if one has gone before us who's blazed the trail and done all the heavy lifting, why not take a closer look at Jesus as the epitome of the whole process or phenomenon of man. For me I see it as an open and free invitation that's just too reasonable and too good to refuse, who's humor and unending joy simply makes no room for my own absurdity and shortsightedness or low estimation of one's value or lack thereof. We ought not do that to ourselves, but by trying to reduce Jesus amounts to the same thing and it belittles everyone else down the line whether they be Buddha, or Ghandi, or you, or me. LOL

"I am the true vine and you are the branches."

Me I'm ok with that, because I understand that the problem of the human will, in need of re-grafting back onto what's vital, and alive.

It's organic, evolutionary, holographic, non-local, universal, and very very wonderful and amuzing to be included in that kind of conspiracy to ensure that non are orphaned in the fullness of time and history.

Best regards,

NAM

reply to post by vethumanbeing


I'm not. Others are confusing the two. But why do you feel they exclusively repel each other?

Thank you as always for your reply.

Originally posted by Pistoche
reply to post by Greylorn

 

Your response resonates with me. The reasons given for the insufficiencies of science are exactly what I share. I would really love it if you could expand upon what you have already stated. Than
Pistoche,

Excellent! I will get to work on a continuum of posts intended to engage your mind on the subjects it has already considered, but from perspectives that you may not have considered.

I'll introduce the ideas in snippets, giving you a chance to consider and comment before proceeding. We should be able to get through the basics in about a half-year.

It will be helpful to get a sense of your educational background, formal or otherwise, especially with regard to physics. I don't expect others to be following whatever conversation we might develop, so if I can shortcut the dialogue by assuming that you already know the Three Laws of Thermodynamics (for example) that will save me some writing and you some reading.

Continuation of my post from 7/29/13 2:21am.
Title: IBT (Introduction to Beon Theory) #1 Implications of a Thinking God

Consider the question: Does God Think?

From reading the Bible and from logical considerations, the first answer to this question is, in my experience, usually a "yes, of course!"

There are many different kinds of information processing that the English language lumps together under the umbrella definition of "thought." These include, for example,
1. The repetition of previously learned behaviors.
2. Regurgitation of memorized information, for quizzes, exams, and classroom lectures.
3. The application of prior knowledge to slightly different circumstances, such as multiplying a pair of numbers or solving a differential equation.
4. Creating genuinely original ideas.

The traditionally defined omniscient God cannot create original ideas. God allegedly knows all things, past, present, and future. If God develops a new idea he'd not previously thought of, he cannot have been omniscient.

A similar argument applies to omnipotence. If God applies infinite force to a single electron, the electron will instantly accelerate to infinite velocity. On the way it will reach light-speed, at which point it will acquire infinite mass, becoming the great grandmother of all black holes. An infinite mass will produce an infinitely powerful gravitational field that will attract all matter in the universe with infinite force, irrespective of distance. All matter in the universe will accelerate in the direction of the source of this force, instantly reaching the speed of light. All particles in the universe will collapse into individual black holes, and the universe itself will collapse into an infinitely dense lump of matter.

Clearly, the notion of an omnipotent God is useless. If such a God ever exercises his full powers, he would destroy the entire universe.

Therefore I propose that if Creator exists, he, she, it, or they are limited in power. These limitations will be reflected in any scientific study of the universe.

For example, whereas an omnipotent, omniscient God should have created the entire universe in an instant (why so long as six days, unless he had problems?) we see lifeforms on our little planet that required 3.5 billion years of experimental engineering (labeled "evolution" by atheists).

If lifeforms were created by an intelligent entity (or consortium thereof, as I propose) the creator is clearly not omnipotent, and not omniscient. He's just a really good microbiological engineer.

By this line of reasoning, you were correct to disbelieve in the God defined by Christianity or any other religion. Now you have the option to consider an alternative. I promise that the alternative becomes more interesting as we explore it.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by veteranhumanbeing

 

This one VHB you might have missed I think it went straight over your head like a dove of peace and joy, and humor. Christ, in mind and heart and spirit and truth isn't particularized, you see, it's a non-local, holographic phenomenon as a universal principal in demonstration of the lengths, the height the depth and the breath of the love of God, for you, and for me, and in the fullness of time and history for one and for all. It goes the WHOLE distance, right across the entire spectrum of all being and becoming so it's very expansive (and expensive too). Everyone is at Christ's table, eventually, at least that's my hope and prayer, but there's no need to reduce the spirit of Christ by lining him up as a particularized point of comparison with other mystics and sages. Why? Because what we do unto the least of our brothers we do it to him. His is a living spirit of humility, and great mirth and charm.

And if one has gone before us who's blazed the trail and done all the heavy lifting, why not take a closer look at Jesus as the epitome of the whole process or phenomenon of man. For me I see it as an open and free invitation that's just too reasonable and too good to refuse, who's humor and unending joy simply makes no room for my own absurdity and shortsightedness or low estimation of one's value or lack thereof. We ought not do that to ourselves, but by trying to reduce Jesus amounts to the same thing and it belittles everyone else down the line whether they be Buddha, or Ghandi, or you, or me. LOL

"I am the true vine and you are the branches."Me I'm ok with that, because I understand that the problem of the human will, in need of re-grafting back onto what's vital, and alive.
It's organic, evolutionary, holographic, non-local, universal, and very very wonderful and amuzing to be included in that kind of conspiracy to ensure that non are orphaned in the fullness of time and history.

I know, God is non specific and niether is Jesus its the blanket I wish was always warm when needed and not hanging outside drying because the Doves Of Love sheltered in it had multiple generations that turned into pidgeons and still feed and care for (ROCK DOVES). This time period is very important because ancient idea forms or paradyms are shifting. Rock solid idea forms are being undermined (thrown out). Life is a scary place to be and if you do not have inner strength where do you go? Outside of it. Jesus is the answer for many as another rung on a ladder to climb above the MUCK just as Confusious is, or Mohammed, Budda; was in their time frames and isolated (geographically) condition of the people they were meant to enlighten; name your own poison. For me, its the infiltration of babtist churches that have sprung up like ant hills in this community, I need gallons of ANTHRO to sprinkle. I get my mirth and charm directly from the above pronounced GOD, and IT IS VERY FUNNY.

There is only one way to God...BUT...out of His Infinite Love for You He can take any road to find you! God is bigger, kinder, more wonderful than anyone of us can conceive. I suspect He is THRILLED with you, your interests, your methods, your depth of thought. It doesn't matter that you might not 'believe' in Him for now...He believes in YOU! He is bigger than atheism, Christianity, Hinduism, and materialism...because Love wins! Meeting God is not like shaking His hand, it's about giving Him a hug.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by veteranhumanbeing

 

I'm not. Others are confusing the two. But why do you feel they exclusively repel each other?

Because one is the Offering, the other is allowed to create. They are not tandom co-creators. The Offering let this go once it unleashed the malstrom allowed to decimate take control bypass NON RULES never set in place, you think the garden of eden was real? it was but could be described/construed as booger on the finger of 'someone' flicking it off (as in this creation takes a life of it own, no responsibility). The whole problem is that the exactitude the enormity of human vs creator and THE WAR between themselves has never been addressed. The creator of US WAS always jealous of the human, WHY, because itself was not MATTERFORM and so figured out a way to come down in frequency to "mate" with the clay woman. There is intrisically within the human nature not to trust our creators and we have every right to own that thought. Jesus, Budda, Mohammed was a peace offering to quell the human intellect into not questioning its OWN REALITY..Not working for me.

Originally posted by eezveeneetee
There is only one way to God...BUT...out of His Infinite Love for You He can take any road to find you! God is bigger, kinder, more wonderful than anyone of us can conceive. I suspect He is THRILLED with you, your interests, your methods, your depth of thought. It doesn't matter that you might not 'believe' in Him for now...He believes in YOU! He is bigger than atheism, Christianity, Hinduism, and materialism...because Love wins! Meeting God is not like shaking His hand, it's about giving Him a hug.

The only way to God is to find the buried treasure somewhere with the word upon its casing. ONE BILLION IN GOLD REFINED 'In God We Trust' STANDARD. If I were to see the motherload, I would be engulfed in LOVE, as money potencial new horizons=LOVE JOY and entertainment for the evening at least some residual as I take the gold to the nuematisist to be evaluated. What was in the Ark of the Covenent? a rock from UR/ radioactive Uranium.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Being a god does not necessitate creatorship, nor does being a creator automatically make one a god. This is what I meant. These two concepts - god and creator - may be affiliated to some degree, but they are not inseparable. One can be a biological father, but that doesn't make him a dad. One can be a dad without being a biological father.

We can take a bunch of raw materials that are no more useful than a rock on a ground, and we can refine them and arrange them to form a sum. That sum has an identity that, regardless of whatever similar forms may have existed previously, has its own unique identity. An identity imagined, designed, crafted and manifested through the minds, hands, and tools of humankind. A unique identity that serves a purpose. An identity we created.

Does this make us gods?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by veteranhumanbeing

 

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Being a god does not necessitate creatorship, nor does being a creator automatically make one a god. This is what I meant. These two concepts - god and creator - may be affiliated to some degree, but they are not inseparable. One can be a biological father, but that doesn't make him a dad. One can be a dad without being a biological father.

We can take a bunch of raw materials that are no more useful than a rock on a ground, and we can refine them and arrange them to form a sum. That sum has an identity that, regardless of whatever similar forms may have existed previously, has its own unique identity. An identity imagined, designed, crafted and manifested through the minds, hands, and tools of humankind. A unique identity that serves a purpose. An identity we created. Does this make us gods?

The experience of Being a God is not anything a human would admit to (probably not as experienced by Joan of Ark) who did and was denounced as a heretic or for you 'off your rocker'. What if God decided to become human to experience first hand his own creation and was left with the experience and no way to reasonably explain it to his audience? "FOUL" called immediately. You would not allow 'God' to experience itself as the thing it created, because for some reason you separate cause and effect when physically described as a FORM/BEING. God could just as well choose the inanimate to experience a rock, or a tree, or a butterfly? It has that ability, and believe me has done just so., why not its most notable creation the human and in parts, each of us. Do you think God can occupy a single human and function within its mind without destroying it as its radiation is phenomenal? Sure why not? You as an indeterminate form (I take it you are not static matter) can decide for yourself whatever you wish, as in you are unique and are the same expression I am, just different. You are in charge and in knowing this as a unique individual ARE GOD.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

The whole problem is that the exactitude the enormity of human vs creator and THE WAR between themselves has never been addressed. The creator of US WAS always jealous of the human, WHY, because itself was not MATTERFORM and so figured out a way to come down in frequency to "mate" with the clay woman.

Okay, now I'm REALLY not sure that I'm following this. As I interpret this, you're saying that our Creator, the one who made the universe we live in, was jealous of humans because he/it was not a "matterform". Is that about the sum of it?

But to me, that seems to make a kind of HUGE assumption about our existence. You are assuming that "matterforms" have a better existence than God. And yes, I'm one of those who believe that God (with a capital G) and the Creator (with a capital C) are the same. The fact is, our existence doesn't compare to the glory of God's. And yes, I did use the word "fact". Because I am a person who has felt God's presence, and I can tell you from firsthand experience that the notion that our existence is better than His is complete hogwash.

Again, I may not be interpreting your post correctly, and if that's the case, please correct me.

reply to post by EPH612


Your entire post is nothing but assumptions. In other words, everything you just spouted is whimsical fantasies that you want to believe but don't HAVE to believe. Not like one would have to believe in, say, gravity. I jump up, I come back down. Pure and simple. Everythng you just said is a chosen conclusion, not a deduction. You riffled through until you found an answer that made you feel good about yourself and existence in general.

Originally posted by EPH612

Originally posted by veteranhumanbeing

The whole problem is that the exactitude the enormity of human vs creator and THE WAR between themselves has never been addressed. The creator of US WAS always jealous of the human, WHY, because itself was not MATTERFORM and so figured out a way to come down in frequency to "mate" with the clay woman.

EPH612Okay, now I'm REALLY not sure that I'm following this. As I interpret this, you're saying that our Creator, the one who made the universe we live in, was jealous of humans because he/it was not a "matterform". Is that about the sum of it? But to me, that seems to make a kind of HUGE assumption about our existence. You are assuming that "matterforms" have a better existence than God. And yes, I'm one of those who believe that God (with a capital G) and the Creator (with a capital C) are the same. The fact is, our existence doesn't compare to the glory of God's. And yes, I did use the word "fact". Because I am a person who has felt God's presence, and I can tell you from firsthand experience that the notion that our existence is better than His is complete hogwash. Again, I may not be interpreting your post correctly, and if that's the case, please correct me.

Yes, I am saying that YOUR Creator as you KNEW it, not the one IAM familiar with that created your creator (are you following me); was at every step jealous of the human because it could not visit "the carnal" (NO HORMONES). God created others that created us is the answer to your question. It always surprises me that the thought that God is All Inclusive to all knowledge is true; in fact that is FALSE. God is on a quest and the humans are its antennai as matter/mind/rememberance (to explain Godself to itself) THAT IS THE ONLY REASON FOR OUR EXISTING. Do you not understand the personal/PERFECT selfishness of this God? I can make the most ridiculous HUGE assumptions I like; and the reason I can, Im allowed as I am the expression of A GODFORM in the flesh and bone. Our existance is better than Gods because he cant experience MATTER, he/it is of a gasious nature (NOT DENSE) and is living in a self imposed LIMBO (the Oracle needing the information from traveling initiates rather than giving it as questions answered truthfully IRONIC NO?).

reply to post by vethumanbeing


I've heard the whole "selfishness of God" argument before, and all I can say is that from my personal experiences with His presence, that argument doesn't hold water. Believe it or not as you choose to, but I can't bring myself to agree with something that runs counter to every experience I've had with God.

I'm not arguing that you can't MAKE assumptions, but the question is: are your assumptions correct? For instance, your assumption (or maybe the better word is "belief") that God is unable to interact with matter. Now if you believe (as I do) that Jesus walked this earth approximately 2000 years ago, and was 100% man and 100% God, that would render that assumption/belief invalid. Secondly, I'm slightly puzzled at the idea of "God created others that created us". If God has the power to create (which you seem to believe he does, albeit in a limited capacity), why do you believe he was unable to create humans?

And I realize that this argument is ultimately simply because our beliefs completely contrast, and likely won't result in any change in either of our beliefs, but I do want to try and make an effort to understand yours.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by EPH612

 

Your entire post is nothing but assumptions. In other words, everything you just spouted is whimsical fantasies that you want to believe but don't HAVE to believe. Not like one would have to believe in, say, gravity. I jump up, I come back down. Pure and simple. Everythng you just said is a chosen conclusion, not a deduction. You riffled through until you found an answer that made you feel good about yourself and existence in general.

edit on 31-7-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Well first off, some of my post was checking my understanding of Vethumanbeing's post. So I wouldn't call it ALL assumptions/whimsical fancies. But I suppose to a certain extent it was, but I think only to the extent of having faith in God. Yes, I don't HAVE to believe it, I CHOOSE to believe it, and thus far my experiences have validated my beliefs. Believe that or not as you wish. I can't truly convince you in the way I think you seem to be wanting. And in believing in something, I suppose you have to make some assumptions for that belief for it to make sense, or for whatever reason. Vethumanbeing has some of his assumptions/beliefs, you have yours, and I have mine. For instance, if one day you jumped in the air and didn't come down, you'd have to rethink gravity, wouldn't you? Believing that gravity is always constant and will never change is an assumption in it's own right.

Secondly, if you think that my faith in God is so I feel good about myself, you're sadly mistaken. Sometimes, it IS great. Other times, I spend my nights tormenting myself over mistakes I made (and sometimes continue to make). In fact, a couple weeks ago, I had to go for a run until I could hardly stand because I just couldn't STAND myself.

reply to post by Pistoche


haaaa, you still are the naive innocent kid. You got a lot to learn buddy. You had it right in your earlier years.

reply to post by EPH612

In fact, a couple weeks ago, I had to go for a run until I could hardly stand because I just couldn't STAND myself.

Worship of anything inevitably leads to the denigration of something else. In this case, that something else is YOU. You no longer appreciate your humanity, because it just doesn't seem adequate in comparison to the all mighty perfection your imagination has concocted as the face of your fantastical deity. You are tired of being imperfect, of being flawed, of being vulnerable, of being clumsy and ignorant and limited. You are tired of being human because you can imagine so many other things you would rather be.

What you fail to realize, EPH, is that if you were all of those great things you could imagine yourself as being, that would eliminate every hardship and every repugnant feature of your being, you would lose everything that makes you worth knowing. You would forget why you were kind, why you were compassionate, why you were loving, why you were virtuous. You feel you must become the melded summation of two ideals that are mutually exclusive - mechanical and benevolent. The more benevolent you are, the less mechanical, and vice versa. The more compassionate you are, the less perfect. You don't seem to realize that in idolizing the paragon of perfection, you idolize the extinction of humanity.

Originally posted by EPH612
reply to post by veteranhumanbeing

 

I've heard the whole "selfishness of God" argument before, and all I can say is that from my personal experiences with His presence, that argument doesn't hold water. Believe it or not as you choose to, but I can't bring myself to agree with something that runs counter to every experience I've had with God.

Fine so why continue the debate? You havent explained you personal god experience to my satisfaction, not that I care as it is entirely a PERSONAL QUEST not having anything to do with, as I dispell and shrink from belief systems.

EPH612
I'm not arguing that you can't MAKE assumptions, but the question is: are your assumptions correct? For instance, your assumption (or maybe the better word is "belief") that God is unable to interact with matter. Now if you believe (as I do) that Jesus walked this earth approximately 2000 years ago, and was 100% man and 100% God, that would render that assumption/belief invalid. Secondly, I'm slightly puzzled at the idea of "God created others that created us". If God has the power to create (which you seem to believe he does, albeit in a limited capacity), why do you believe he was unable to create humans?

veteranhumanbeing
No one knows anything at all about belief systems or assumptions; therefore I cannot deem my thoughts as correct or TRUE as I will not, do not acknowelge those systems as true, I have to figure these things out as a personal quest in SEAKING TRUTH that resonates with me, my quest for enlightennment is completely different than yours, ITS INDIVIDUALIZED. You are a self defining aspect of God, its up to you to take in on, THE DEFINITION. God is unable to interact with matter in its FORM that is why you are in existance to explain what its regarding. Why does the Jesus aspect always have to raise its head, Im speaking of GodformNOTITSSONS OF (oh btw ARE YOU). If God had the power to create as I never admitted to and am not convinced he has or does have/hold that power/IN ITS IGNORANCE ACCIDENTLY CREATED THE HUMAN, and has no excuses for the MIXUP/MESSUP.

And I realize that this argument is ultimately simply because our beliefs completely contrast, and likely won't result in any change in either of our beliefs, but I do want to try and make an effort to understand yours. I AM NOT A/OF BELIEF SYSTEM PERSONALITY. I am repulsed by them.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by EPH612

 

Your entire post is nothing but assumptions. In other words, everything you just spouted is whimsical fantasies that you want to believe but don't HAVE to believe. Not like one would have to believe in, say, gravity. I jump up, I come back down. Pure and simple. Everythng you just said is a chosen conclusion, not a deduction. You riffled through until you found an answer that made you feel good about yourself and existence in general.

edit on 31-7-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Well first off, some of my post was checking my understanding of Vethumanbeing's post. So I wouldn't call it ALL assumptions/whimsical fancies. But I suppose to a certain extent it was, but I think only to the extent of having faith in God. Yes, I don't HAVE to believe it, I CHOOSE to believe it, and thus far my experiences have validated my beliefs. Believe that or not as you wish. I can't truly convince you in the way I think you seem to be wanting. And in believing in something, I suppose you have to make some assumptions for that belief for it to make sense, or for whatever reason. Vethumanbeing has some of his assumptions/beliefs, you have yours, and I have mine. For instance, if one day you jumped in the air and didn't come down, you'd have to rethink gravity, wouldn't you? Believing that gravity is always constant and will never change is an assumption in it's own right.

Secondly, if you think that my faith in God is so I feel good about myself, you're sadly mistaken. Sometimes, it IS great. Other times, I spend my nights tormenting myself over mistakes I made (and sometimes continue to make). In fact, a couple weeks ago, I had to go for a run until I could hardly stand because I just couldn't STAND myself.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by EPH612

 

Worship of anything inevitably leads to the denigration of something else. In this case, that something else is YOU. You no longer appreciate your humanity, because it just doesn't seem adequate in comparison to the all mighty perfection your imagination has concocted as the face of your fantastical deity. You are tired of being imperfect, of being flawed, of being vulnerable, of being clumsy and ignorant and limited. You are tired of being human because you can imagine so many other things you would rather be.

What you fail to realize, EPH, is that if you were all of those great things you could imagine yourself as being, that would eliminate every hardship and every repugnant feature of your being, you would lose everything that makes you worth knowing. You would forget why you were kind, why you were compassionate, why you were loving, why you were virtuous. You feel you must become the melded summation of two ideals that are mutually exclusive - mechanical and benevolent. The more benevolent you are, the less mechanical, and vice versa. The more compassionate you are, the less perfect. You don't seem to realize that in idolizing the paragon of perfection, you idolize the extinction of humanity.

A very interesting and thought provoking viewpoint, I suppose the best answer I could give is that I don't believe that perfection and humanity are completely exclusive, and I wouldn't quite say that I don't value my humanity. I don't believe that perfection is where you HAVE to do the right thing, all the time. Perfection is where you would CHOOSE to do the right thing, all the time. That's part of what God taught us when he sent His son Jesus. Jesus was fully human, and able to make all the same mistakes we do. But he CHOSE not to. That's what I would believe is perfection. So I don't think that perfection would diminish or cheapen anything that I've experienced as a part of my faults. I look at my humanity and my current situation as what it is, a temporary, yet crucial part of my existence. It's important, but I believe that something better is yet to come.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Fine so why continue the debate? You havent explained you personal god experience to my satisfaction, not that I care as it is entirely a PERSONAL QUEST not having anything to do with, as I dispell and shrink from belief systems.

I continue this debate because I think it is important to challenge myself and expose myself to differing beliefs. That's part of how I help more thoroughly understand my own beliefs, through being challenged by others. And you clearly have some beliefs. You define them for yourself, but they are your beliefs. And I have my beliefs, that I choose for myself. I'm not sure that a "belief system" would be the correct word choice, but we DO each have our own beliefs. And our respective beliefs seem to contradict each other. That is all I was trying to say.

And I haven't described my personal experience with God for a couple of reasons. 1: I sincerely doubt that I am capable enough to describe it to you. I'm not sure that it can be described adequately to do it justice. 2: Because of #1, I very much doubt that it would be to your satisfaction, so there wouldn't be much point. But if you (or anyone else reading this) would like for me to attempt (and quite likely fail) to describe my personal experience with God, I will. I'll probably fail to do it justice, but I will try if someone would like me to.

veteranhumanbeing
No one knows anything at all about belief systems or assumptions; therefore I cannot deem my thoughts as correct or TRUE as I will not, do not acknowelge those systems as true, I have to figure these things out as a personal quest in SEAKING TRUTH that resonates with me, my quest for enlightennment is completely different than yours, ITS INDIVIDUALIZED. You are a self defining aspect of God, its up to you to take in on, THE DEFINITION.

Fair enough. You described it differently than I would've, but it's an excellent point.

God is unable to interact with matter in its FORM that is why you are in existance to explain what its regarding. Why does the Jesus aspect always have to raise its head, Im speaking of GodformNOTITSSONS OF (oh btw ARE YOU). If God had the power to create as I never admitted to and am not convinced he has or does have/hold that power/IN ITS IGNORANCE ACCIDENTLY CREATED THE HUMAN, and has no excuses for the MIXUP/MESSUP.

I believe you said something along the lines of God making something that made us, so you did seem to ascribe Him some sort of powers of creation. And I think that "the Jesus aspect" tends to raise it's head because I believe that Jesus is part of the Trinity that is God. I'm not sure that you can have a complete discussion of the former without also talking about the latter.

Originally posted by EPH612

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by EPH612

 

A very interesting and thought provoking viewpoint, I suppose the best answer I could give is that I don't believe that perfection and humanity are completely exclusive, and I wouldn't quite say that I don't value my humanity. I don't believe that perfection is where you HAVE to do the right thing, all the time. Perfection is where you would CHOOSE to do the right thing, all the time. That's part of what God taught us when he sent His son Jesus. Jesus was fully human, and able to make all the same mistakes we do. But he CHOSE not to. That's what I would believe is perfection. So I don't think that perfection would diminish or cheapen anything that I've experienced as a part of my faults. I look at my humanity and my current situation as what it is, a temporary, yet crucial part of my existence. It's important, but I believe that something better is yet to come.

Originally posted by veteranhumanbeing
Fine so why continue the debate? You havent explained you personal god experience to my satisfaction, not that I care as it is entirely a PERSONAL QUEST not having anything to do with, as I dispell and shrink from belief systems.

EPH612
I continue this debate because I think it is important to challenge myself and expose myself to differing beliefs. That's part of how I help more thoroughly understand my own beliefs, through being challenged by others. And you clearly have some beliefs. You define them for yourself, but they are your beliefs. And I have my beliefs, that I choose for myself. I'm not sure that a "belief system" would be the correct word choice, but we DO each have our own beliefs. And our respective beliefs seem to contradict each other. That is all I was trying to say.

PoohBEAR AfterInfinity
And I haven't described my personal experience with God for a couple of reasons. 1: I sincerely doubt that I am capable enough to describe it to you. I'm not sure that it can be described adequately to do it justice. 2: Because of #1, I very much doubt that it would be to your satisfaction, so there wouldn't be much point. But if you (or anyone else reading this) would like for me to attempt (and quite likely fail) to describe my personal experience with God, I will. I'll probably fail to do it justice, but I will try if someone would like me to.

veteranhumanbeing
No one knows anything at all about belief systems or assumptions; therefore I cannot deem my thoughts as correct or TRUE as I will not, do not acknowelge those systems as true, I have to figure these things out as a personal quest in SEAKING TRUTH that resonates with me, my quest for enlightennment is completely different than yours, ITS INDIVIDUALIZED. You are a self defining aspect of God, its up to you to take in on, THE DEFINITION.

ETA:612AMdestinationheaven
Fair enough. You described it differently than I would've, but it's an excellent point.

VeteranhumanbeingGod is unable to interact with matter in its FORM that is why you are in existance to explain what its regarding. Why does the Jesus aspect always have to raise its head, Im speaking of GodformNOTITSSONS OF (oh btw ARE YOU). If God had the power to create as I never admitted to and am not convinced he has or does have/hold that power/IN ITS IGNORANCE ACCIDENTLY CREATED THE HUMAN, and has no excuses for the MIXUP/MESSUP.

EPH612
I believe you said something along the lines of God making something that made us, so you did seem to ascribe Him some sort of powers of creation. And I think that "the Jesus aspect" tends to raise it's head because I-

.

Nice job to all involved these last two postings have either placed me inside of AfterInfinity's head or visa-versa; and you EPH612 were cut off in mid-sentence? I believe I said something along the lines of God making something that made us? YES IT DID, and just like its CREATOR is too cowardly to show ITSELF. God does not have the ability to create matter, what it does HAVE is the ability to take an IDEA and THINK IT INTO BEING. Quite a talent NO? MAGICK. Im going to have to change my signiture; IF GOD WERE PERFECT he wouldnt have had to create JESUS, Mohammed, Budda, inso being imperfect WHAT ARE ITS FLAWS. NUMBER ONE, deceitfulness.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


I think that God created humans because He wanted to. God created humans because He wanted something made in His image that could CHOOSE to follow and obey Him, or choose not to. Having that choice is important. I don't think that making humans was an accident.

And secondly I'm not convinced that God is deceitful. What do you feel He has been deceitful about? As I see it, He's given us just about everything that we need to know through the Bible and the people around us.