An Atheist's Desperate Plea

reply to post by Pistoche

Originally posted by ProfessorChaos
reply to post by Pistoche

 

Based on some of your remarks, it sounds to me like you already do believe in some kind of God, or a power beyond yourself.

The real question appears to be, which God should you believe in?

I think it's important to find some commonality in religion, as this "vintage Daily Show clip" exemplifies!

reply to post by Pistoche


very impressive post Pistoche because of its honesty and clarity
thank you

please ;
you say that science and belief were mutually excluding eachother in your vieuw - but IS that so ?

the *fact* that you still are searching for God, couldnt that show you how close you could be to FIND Him soon..? Perhaps you look to the different types of believers, and cannot find much that is appealing to you in the common depictions of Him ; and that is why indeed you have problems with feeling forced to accept a, somewhat childish portrayed God. And you are right - that is impossible to accept then.

..it may be very well.... that whén He d show Him to you, you will see He is not 'childish' at all ;
that you will see, there IS no difference between 'science' and 'belief '
[ since that appereant seperation is nothing but a fabricated difference]
and it may be very well that you was mént to have walked the road you did untill now - because you will have to use all that knowledge, soon :
*grin* who knows...He could give you the task "to Integrate science and belief"!


see - much of what is called science, today ...is "science Falsely so Called" [ that vers is in Scripture]
because the very act of [scientifically] looking at things, is supplied by a consciousness
- read: entity

..typical and grave Faultyness of science, is that she first has to Murder things
in order to can 'study' them.
but inherently it means, that science can study only "dead" things, and disregards the Energies of Life
[read: God] who is empówering those things.
therefore, modern science is about "the Will to Rule " , a Will which wants to defy God,
by creating a world, a context, in what He will have no access in, anymore.
- Yet Hé is still the one who sustains our own very life !

...so, science creates a Subjective consciousness within human,
the human projects a workable hypothesis upon the world around him - the Subjective one -
that subjective consciousness is residing in the brow [chakra]
which is ruled by that entity
....so it is, in fact, that *entity* which fuels and supplies ideas and Images into the Subjective consciousness.

my educated guess Pistoche.... is that your real work is only about to BEGIN for you...

bless

reply to post by Pistoche


I have a question for you, Pistoche: why do you feel it is so necessary for you to have a deity? Why is religion so important to you?

reply to post by Pistoche

i think a big reason people become atheist is the bs that has nothing to do with faith, i am a christian but i cant stand the establishment christian model that breeds sheeple, just try to show one of them bohemian grove or proof of occult in government and they bottle up and just spew some mindless reason why they have faith in americas fake two party system. I think this controlled environment is made for an individual to loose faith in what they believe in.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Pistoche

 

I have a question for you, Pistoche: why do you feel it is so necessary for you to have a deity? Why is religion so important to you?

I believe there is a "solution" or purpose for every "problem". As I stated in my thread post, I believe there is an "elegant solution" to everything. As such, I believe there is a reason for existence, I am seeking answers. I haven't found it through science yet, I figured it's time I explored other venues to try and find answers to this problem.

I suggest you've already "found" God. Your searching indicates that your journey itself...even in it's beginning stages...shows your willingness to believe. And that IS of God, from God to you.

Seek and ye shall find. So as you are seeking truth...it is now in front of you. That's how it works....all comes from FAITH...and that will take you some time to gain...still your willingness to learn and want to believe to me...proves you are on your way....

reply to post by Pistoche

As such, I believe there is a reason for existence, I am seeking answers.

Then make one. Forge your own reason for existing. Who is better suited for determining your purpose than yourself? That is why you have a brain and a heart, yes? Rather than letting others decide for you...

Thank you for your heart felt honesty and openness. My suggestion to you is this: throw your logic out the window for an hour. Just try ONE hour. Get yourself (your mind) out of the way. Make sure you are alone in a quiet place, and then open your heart and PRAY. Then LISTEN. Let the peace of God cover you like a blanket. Surrender your pride and ego that tells you, "I can figure this out, I can make this make sense."

What you seek is already seeking you. Let your heart be found. Surrender and find peace like you've never known.
God bless you.

reply to post by Pistoche


While I don't have an answer for your question. You sound like you're looking to expand your views to see what other alternatives are out there. I can tell, as an academic, you value libraries and books for their ability to convey other ways of thinking. There's no more comprehensive library that I know of than this ...

tinyurl . com / spacetransient

It covers basically every philosophy, mythology, and science known to man.

I hope you avail yourself of it.

reply to post by mysterioustranger

That's how it works....all comes from FAITH...

I'm sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding here. But isn't faith all about not needing an answer?

Originally posted by Pistoche

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Pistoche

 

I have a question for you, Pistoche: why do you feel it is so necessary for you to have a deity? Why is religion so important to you?

I believe there is a "solution" or purpose for every "problem". As I stated in my thread post, I believe there is an "elegant solution" to everything. As such, I believe there is a reason for existence, I am seeking answers. I haven't found it through science yet, I figured it's time I explored other venues to try and find answers to this problem.

Well stated AfterInfinity.

And Pistoche, agreed. The elegance of the universe, personified, can tempt one to infer that an extraordinary being of highest integrity crafted it. Such elegance in our frame of understanding stems only from beauty and singularity of mind, karmic peace, infinite resourcefulness, and unquestionable intent.

We therefore pine to personify this elegance, to grasp it and to know it. Who wouldn't thirst to know something like that? Once personified however, we then find ourselves facing the question as to why the personality did not apply this same ethos, in the rest of his/her domain. Why did a being that powerful, resort to the desperate and messy solution to universal dangers, called DNA? The crafter of DNA (were there one), signed his work with the clear ethic of being victim of the Universe, just as are we. Not a master of it. We are both surfers on the same wave, not makers of the wave itself. The crafter of DNA would simply have been out on the beach longer than we have, and knows its dangers.

Pistoche, I went through the same thing when I hit undergraduate school. I felt like I had abandoned all that was identified as significant in my soul. Your torment comes from the conflation of the concepts of belief and participation. You are not participating in your religion but you are still believing in that same god. You are simply anathema - you are still in the hockey game but have placed yourself into the penalty box. You are still part of that religion. Many atheists are in this box, and they do not know it.

I would encourage you to take off the hockey uniform and walk out. The penalty box and its despair, servers no one. An ethical god would encourage you to do the same thing.

True atheism is different from the visceral self loathing hatred, fruits of exile from the god of your youth, which is exhibited by many who call themselves atheists. There are plenty of angry atheists who hold their beliefs as a reaction to what they hate, and not an elegant course of ethical mind. True atheists do not thirst for a god of meaning because they have never had their heart trained in such fashion, or have become skilled at de-programming their heart from this brainwashing. A true atheist would first cite that they are a being of limited resource, and simply do not know.

Step out of the penalty box. Don't look at what others do, or the smile and suit they wear, as being indicative of their possessing peace. Most often it is an act and a self delusion, bearing no aspects of honesty or character that a true god would respect. You have chosen simply to not adopt the act. Kudos.

Your anguish is the inevitable halo of choosing character over delusion.

Now do not fall for the NEXT religion which will be offered you. Nihilist Materialism. Be very aware that it is simply another religion, which on the surface appears to be the next rational step. It is not.

Goddists claim that god backs up their religion as true. They therefore claim answers and the inerrant authority of God/Bible/Imam/Master/Qur'an/etc. This is a deception.

Nihilists claim that science backs up their religion as true. They therefore claim answers and the inerrant authority of Science. This is also a deception.

Science makes no claims into this realm. It offers no comment. You are free.

And for us as persons it is OK - maybe even enlightened - to not have the answers.

reply to post by TheEthicalSkeptic

And for us as persons it is OK - maybe even enlightened - to not have the answers.

There is nothing wrong with admitting that you do not know.

reply to post by ChristianJihad

Who the hell told you this nonsense, did you just make it up?

So you call my statement nonsence.... then admit that its true...

Madness i tell you!!

Utter Madness!!

The only way to truth is through reason.Ask yourself and diligently seek the answers to these 5 questions and you will find your answers.
1) who is god? This tells us the person
2) what is god? This tells us the nature of god
3) where is god? Where suggests space. God is not in space
4) when ? When describes time. God is not in time.
5) why? this describes purpose.

Blind faith is weak and unstable. When the first tests come upon such a person, they find that they cannot overcome such trials and their beliefs fall apart, while those who have sought God in His word and tested it's truths have a much firmer foundation.

I will admit I have sort of cheated in my faith because of my experiences. I am not one who has not experienced the other worldly and supernatural. Thus, I know there is life after death, and that we continue on once these clay shells are broken.

I was raised Roman Catholic and had a head belief system. I was not taught the bible as many who grow up say in a Baptist or Church of Christ are taught it. I can say though that I have always loved the sacred and holy and wanted a deeper relationship with God. I was not looking for that when it slapped me silly about a month before graduating from college. I was given a book and not told anything about it. It was called, "Lessons from a Sheep dog" by Phillip Keller.

At some point in my reading, my heart was touched and I had a profound experience of heart knowing and belief and not just head belief. That was not the only experience for me though in my newer path with Yeshua. The greatest experience for me came eight years later after I had studied the bible in depth for all those years in it's original languages, and see God heal people miraculously. I had a crisis moment where I was wounded in spirit, and needed to forgive someone. It was in my obedience to that forgiving that God blessed me with a very personal experience much akin to what St. Terese of Avila describes in her autobiography and what the Italian sculptor depicts of her experience.

Why did I share this with you? I share it because the word says, ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened to you. My relationship with God is very personal. I continue to study, but I do not go to church. I have found little fertile soil in churches in the past decade. Wherever two or more are gathered in my name, Jesus said, I am with you. So, I feel no compunction going to a dead church. I am not saying all churches are dead, just the ones were I live are.

Maybe that book will reach out to you. I do know this, God never turns His back on an open and seeking heart, and it is my prayer that such a blessing will come to you. The hour is late, and much will happen in the near future. Many will be seeking and thus, you are not alone.

Having read more of the replies, I find it curious that many say, "Don't look for an experience" or "Look within for that is where you find God". There is truth in those statement's but all a lot of opportunity for stumbling blocks. Why did so many come to believe Jesus /Yeshua was the Messiah?

It was precisely because of the miracles he performed. We are told that it is an evil generation that seeks for signs. It does not say signs are evil. We are also told that we are blessed who get to see things, but more blessed are those who never see and yet believe!

I have lived with ghosts most of my life. I have experienced the supernatural all my life, and I am now 47. I have had friends who adamantly deny any such things as ghosts who say, "When I see one, I will believe" and I tell them, "When you believe, then you might see one." We see less miracles in the West because we don't need them as those who live in the poorest countries really need help from God in what we consider mundane things like a virus or bacterial infection being cured. We just pop a pill or go to the hospital.

As for God being within, Jesus said, the kingdom of God is within us, but He did not say God is within you. God for me, is very separate from us. We can commune with God in our spirits which are within these shells. If you are blind then you cannot find the path, and that is why Jesus / Yeshua showed the way. What prevents us from serving God first is what blocks our paths. For some it is riches, for others it is the fear of man ridiculing us, for some it is abject fear because we are not worthy and thus why would God want to have anything to do with us. I know one thing and that is if you ask God to come into your heart and forgive you of your sins, and show you the way, He will. There is another saying that the squeeky wheel gets the grease. Are you truly squeeking? Try fasting and prayer. Ask God to reveal himself through His word. I have never seen a truly open heart be denied the touch of the Holy Spirit.

reply to post by Pistoche


Hey brother, I am the same. I thought I found a higher power and created a cosmology for my life based on a prime mover that intervenes in human affairs. This, obviously, was based on a point system of how much I devoted myself to this invisible force that I created for the reason of checking my over-inflated ego. About two years ago I found that I could not continue to support the current idea of a god based on the review of what I found in my life. This review brought to light that I had experienced what I came to believe as miracles but in truth was simply me being present and persistent in my being. For instance, I became free of people that were drunks and addicted to self. Then, for some odd reason, my life became highly manageable and I was able to find a person, a wife, that wasn't a crazed lunatic after the first month we moved into the same house.

To open my path of discovery I began to read the philosophers started with Plato and his cave allegory all the way to Hume's problem with induction. These men hammered blindly against the question of does god exist do we exist and who we are. Finding the words of Spinoza and his pantheism (regarding his version of god) to be more enlightening than that of all organized religions. Then, once I traced protestant religions back to its roots and how Martin Luther started something truly good but morons like John Calvin derailed the movement so to speak. One of the greatest aspects of living now, in post-modern times, is we have men like Nietzsche and his will to power and his ubermensch to Heidegger's being in time. Unlike structured religion these men can help you formulate your own stance, a living--> breathing-->evolving philosophy that you yourself can be the operator of, not someone else and their need to social engineer mass populations for the gain of wealth and money. I think the existentialist questions are the most revealing, always look to someone other than the guy that tells you that this god is the only answer..

Originally posted by Druscilla

As a child, you had a god or gods. Now, as difficult and hard as it may be, it's time to be an adult. Play time is over. Work, Pay rent. Find a mate. Follow the path life offers and mold it how you may to your liking.

well except children are atheist before they learn of gods or religion, they question and wonder about everything without bias or preconceptions, they aren't rigid in their world view and really do seek to understand, if anything children are closer in nature to the purpose of intelligence than any adult.
the day all 'adults' can think as such like children is the day we escape the cycle of ignorance, hatred, war, destruction, oppression, judgement, bias and discrimination, a world of atheists won't change humanity's fate to suffer these things, it'll only take on a new form.

the fact the OP is still searching to understand without bias is a good thing, questioning constantly may be the hard path but a still mind is a dying mind, those who rigidly declare truths with incomplete knowledge or understanding are fools and many humans are fools in that regard.

as for me i suppose i still question what i believe, sometimes god seems plausible, sometimes god seems silly, sometimes god has another form, name or concept, sometimes i think god is an escape or social enforcer. in the end i'll only know when i'm dead so why should i or anyone declare anything about god or lack of god as truth.

limited beings with limited scope and limited time have no business declaring truths of existence beyond their sight.

i say the OP shouldn't weigh themselves down by one belief or another and always seek understanding in all places and things, don't seek what you'll never find in life, if something like god or heaven exist then death will show you after but if not then at least you had fun learning many things while you existed.

reply to post by TheEthicalSkeptic


I couldn't have said it better myself.

I long for a beacon of hope that I can grasp onto, both in times of joy and sorrow. I yearn for a light at the end of the tunnel while I struggle with my arduous journey through this seemingly endless darkness. I desire for a purpose greater than myself. Alas, to no avail. Only insignificance, meaninglessness and emptiness prevail.

I believe that you feel this way. That being said, I don't know of any atheists, personally, who feel this way.
In my experience, yes, it would be nice to feel like there is a "meaning" or a "reason" for this life, but only because it seems like it would be easier some days to just give up and let someone else do the thinking and reasoning.

I don’t find immersion in science as a satisfactory excuse for banishing God from my life

People who are raised in a religion learn very young to feel guilty for everything they do, lest they disappoint their god. This feeling, I believe, is a lingering effect.

as opposed to unceremoniously becoming rotting, decaying flesh, destined to become worm food, with no greater purpose.

Being worm food isn't all bad. It's a part of the circle of life. Any animals first instinct is preservation. This is why dying terrifies us so.

I personally believe, that an afterlife could be possible, even without a god. There are a lot of unexplained phenomenon in this universe and I don't completely discredit the idea of an "afterlife". I don't believe in heaven, hell, souls, ghosts, angels or demons. But I can entertain the thought that there might be some kind of energy transfer going on that we have yet to explain. But I digress...

Don't limit yourself to one school of thinking. You are not yet mature in your beliefs/ non-beliefs, but that day will come eventually.

reply to post by Pistoche


You sound like you are going through what some call the "Dark Night of the Soul". Krishnamurti went through this.

I started as a Catholic, but realized that major ideas of the Church made no sense and went through a very dark period while getting a degree in physics and studying religion on the side for answers. Physics taught me that, while scientists knew a lot of correspondences between mathematics and what they thought was reality, they really knew nothing at all. This left me with neither religion nor science to explain my world, and I was desperate to find truth and meaning. After I left home and university for a job that left me with time on my hands after work, and no friends, I started meditating using the simple repetition of a mantra 20 minutes twice per day. After many months, I started to have spontaneous out of body experiences that proved to me that I was not a body. So I started reading and taking seriously writings of those who agreed with my observations. I can tell you that it is very difficult to achieve this kind of insight when you don't have any peace and quiet in your life. This period lasted for two years, which was enough to get the insight I wanted. I can also tell you that you don't need religion to realize who you are and why the world is the way it is. Religion by its very nature is a distortion of the truth and you would eventually have to go beyond it anyway. I don't like the traditional idea of many religions as to what God is and understand why people become atheists in this environment. We are all energetic extensions of a Being of light and love on a journey to be more of what we are. It is possible to move your consciousness around and actually be aware of that. The purpose of evil is to help us learn. Eventually, it will fall away.

Yes, you have not tried long enough. I myself have often wished for a magic book or magic person to enlighten me, but have only gotten success through persistent and unremitting practice. Keep trying and never give up, for that is the way to success, and you have nothing else to live or die for. In addition to meditation, remember that there are two paths: "service to self" and "service to others". The only way to maintain your identity and succeed is service to others.