Did Jews or other Semites jump-start ancient Greek civilization?

OP is completely ignorant of the powerful, ancient and well established Persian civilization who once freed them “Jews” from Babylonian slavery gave them shelter and dignity.

At that time Jews knew nothing but some form of ORAL superstitious BS collect/selected from other tribes in the same area then gluing them all together as their heritage.

They still know nothing but the stolen history.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

 

Cadmus predates the Exodus by probably a thousand years or so.

Myths often have a core of truth. But the numbers may be off. If there is no archeological evidence it may be off by 1000+. But my question does not hinge on Cadmus.

Phoenician culture had a huge effect upon the cultures of the Mediterranean basin in the early Iron Age, and had also been affected in reverse. For example, in Phoenicia, the tripartite division between Baal, Mot and Yam seems to have influenced the Greek division between Zeus, Hades and Poseidon.

en.wikipedia.org...

No but they were the ones who intentionally destroyed it from within.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman
But my question does not hinge on Cadmus.

I think I understand what the general idea of what you are wondering about though.

It's complex due to limitations of our terminology.

In essence what you want to know is in an entirely different context than what we have been led to assume by contemporary society.

Rather than the Semites, or the Jews, or Hebrews, or any of these words, let's use a better frame of terminology.

Take the title of your thread for instance:
""Did Jews or other Semites jump-start ancient Greek civilization?""

The better question to ask IMHO is :
"Did Egyptian Hermetic Alchemy and Occult Orders within the religious based governments of the time facilitate, inspire, and promote the expansion of Hellenistic Culture and Civilization?" And the answer to this is Yes.

Judaism is not the Old Testament religion that many believe.

Jesus wasn't a Jew.

Nor is the Bible a Jewish book...

Michael Hoffman's book "Judaism Discovered" covers this in detail here.

The late Rabbi Stephen F. Wise, formerly the Chief Rabbi of the United States said, "The return from Babylon and the introduction of the Babylonian Talmud mark the end of Hebrewism and the beginning of Judaism."

The learned Rabbi was correct in distinguishing the true religion of the Old Testament as Hebrewism for it was the religion of the real Hebrews, who were not Jews at all. Judaism, the religion of the Jews, is as the learned Rabbi says, based upon the Babylonian Talmud, which contains the supposed oral law. It was never reduced to writing as part of the Bible. This oral law gradually gained greater force among the Jews than the written law in the Bible, with which it often conflicted in Jesus' day, the Babylonian Talmud was known as the Tradition of the Elders.

This was the religion of the Jews. As the learned Rabbi Stephen F. Wise said, Judaism was distinguished from Hebrewism, the real religion of the Old Testament. Certainly Christianity took nothing from any Jewish religion for we have never taken any part of Christianity from the Talmud. Well then, can it be said we got our Bible or our religion of Christianity from men of the Jewish race? No, it cannot.

The Bible is not a Jewish Book

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


One thing real quick, the Bible was written by Israelites. Moses (author of the first 5 books) was a LEVITE, of the tribe of Levi, not Judah (i.e. jews). Joshua was not of Judah, Sampson was a Benjamite, Gideon was Ephraimite etc.

The correct word is Israelite which is 12 tribes, 1 of which is called Judah later in history after being separated from Israel.

Now onto your OP.

I have come across some stories found in a few ancient depictions where a small group of Israelites (mostly of the tribe of Dan) escaped Egyptian captivity a generation before God raised up the prophet Moses to lead Israel out of slavery.

In the story depicted this group became known as the The Lacedemonian Greeks (Spartans!) during Joshua's conquest of Canaan, and referred to themselves as "brothers of Israel".

They had the serpent symbol (Dan) in the claws of an Eagle as their crest.

Here is the letter:

"Jonathan the high priest of the Jewish nation . . . to the ephori and senate and the people of the Lacedemonians, send greeting:

"When in former times an epistle was brought to Onias, who was then our high priest . . . concerning the KINDRED THAT WAS BETWEEN US AND YOU, a copy of which is here subjoined, we both joyfully received the epistle . . . because we were well satisfied about it from the SACRED WRITINGS, yet did not we think fit, first to begin the claim of this RELATION TO YOU, the glory which is now given us by you. It is a long time since this relation of ours to you hath been renewed, and when we, upon holy and festival days offer sacrifices to God, we pray to Him for your preservation and victory . . . . You will, therefore, do well yourselves to write to us, and send us an account of what you stand in need of from us, since we are in all things disposed to act according to your desires"
-(Antiquities of the Jews, XIII, 5, 8).

According to this letter, the Spartan civilization in Greece is Danite (Israelites) genetically.

This makes the story of the 300 and the battle of Thermopoly even more incredible if true. It means 300 Danites (decendants of Israel) stood up to 1 million Persians. It means God had a hand in the overwhelimg odds faced and the war victory accomplished by the loss of an epic battle. At the time Persia ruled over Judah (Israel no longer existed) and the three tribes that maintained their identities as "jews" (Judah, Benjamin, Levi).

Great thread.

God Bless,

Originally posted by ElohimJD
reply to post by ThinkingHuman

 

In the story depicted this group became known as the The Lacedemonian Greeks (Spartans!) during Joshua's conquest of Canaan, and referred to themselves as "brothers of Israel".

They had the serpent symbol (Dan) in the claws of an Eagle as their crest.

Here is the letter:



According to this letter, the Spartan civilization in Greece is Danite (Israelites) genetically.
Great thread.

God Bless,

As I mentioned in my earlier post. Let the kids in and the theories are thrown against the wall like crap...this particular contributor made me laugh so hard I almost soiled myself.

Man....whats next the danites emigrated to old america and established a small kingdom of god on manhattan? LOLOL..."Makes voice like Marlon Brando in Apocalypse now"; The horror, the horror...

Originally posted by johncarter

As I mentioned in my earlier post. Let the kids in and the theories are thrown against the wall like crap...this particular contributor made me laugh so hard I almost soiled myself.

Man....whats next the danites emigrated to old america and established a small kingdom of god on manhattan? LOLOL..."Makes voice like Marlon Brando in Apocalypse now"; The horror, the horror...

edit on 11-7-2013 by johncarter because: (no reason given)

Wow, what an arrogant post John.

The quote I presented is recored in the book "Antiquities of the Jews" written by Josephus in the first century CE.

If you do not believe it's authenticity, that is your choice. I did not create this claim. The most famous jewish historian in History did 2000 years ago.

Concidering the OP is about possible links between ancient Greece and the Israelite bloodline, my contribution is far more valuable to this thread then your insults.

Your post reveals the "kid" in this exchange.

God Bless,

Originally posted by johncarter

Man....whats next the danites emigrated to old america and established a small kingdom of god on manhattan? LOLOL..."Makes voice like Marlon Brando in Apocalypse now"; The horror, the horror...

edit on 11-7-2013 by johncarter because: (no reason given)

I found this humorous as well.

There is strong ancient evidence in Ireland indicating the Irish "Tuatha de Danaan" are the Israelite "Tribe of Dan" as well.

Danites were seamen, and masters of ocean sailing. Believe what you want, but the documents exist and were recorded by historians, not made up my posters on ATS.

God Bless,

Originally posted by ElohimJD

Originally posted by johncarter

Man....whats next the danites emigrated to old america and established a small kingdom of god on manhattan? LOLOL..."Makes voice like Marlon Brando in Apocalypse now"; The horror, the horror...

edit on 11-7-2013 by johncarter because: (no reason given)

I found this humorous as well.

There is strong ancient evidence in Ireland indicating the Irish "Tuatha de Danaan" are the Israelite "Tribe of Dan" as well.

Danites were seamen, and masters of ocean sailing. Believe what you want, but the documents exist and were recorded by historians, not made up my posters on ATS.

God Bless,

and it gets better...mwahahahaha...ahahaha...falls of balcony and lands on an irish lad...sorry...a Danite .with an S carved on his chest (spartan)

reply to post by johncarter


You are so funny John Carter.

Thank you for your intellectual contribution to a historical discussion.

God Bless,

The Phoenicians absolutely did not start Greek civilization, they were a couple thousand years late for that.
What's more likely is that certain very early caananite city states were founded by maritime agean people, Greeks, and that some were dilmun/Dravidian trade outposts.
The phonecians get way too much credit, their "empire"was built upon the ruins of the Minoans, who controlled trade for two thousand years in the med.

Minoan influence is seen all through the eastern med,

In late 2009, Minoan-style frescoes and other Minoan-style artifacts were discovered during excavations of the Canaanite palace at Tel Kabri, Israel, leading archaeologists to conclude that the Minoan influence was the strongest foreign influence on that Caananite city state. These are the only Minoan remains ever found in Israel.

What is mist interesting about this is that it has recently been hypothesized, that the Minoan rise to dominance came after akkadian "refugees", ie military leaders and courtiers, settled in Crete after the fall of akkad. This fits with the idea that some caananite cites were founded as Mesopotamian trade centers.

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


en.wikipedia.org...

Been there for at least 2K years.
An interesting theory.

The Romaniotes are a Jewish population who have lived in the territory of today's Greece for more than 2000 years. Their historic language was Yevanic, a dialect of the Greek language. Yevanic has no surviving speakers recorded; today's Greek Romaniotes speak Greek. Large communities were located in Ioannina, Thebes, Chalcis, Corfu, Arta, Corinth and on the islands of Lesbos, Chios, Samos, Rhodes, and Cyprus, among others. The Romaniotes are historically distinct from the Sephardim, some of whom settled in Greece after the 1492 expulsion of the Jews from Spain. All but a small number of the Romaniotes of Ioannina, the largest remaining Romaniote community not assimilated into Sephardic culture, were killed in the Holocaust. Ioannina today has 35 living Romaniotes.[6]

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


Die hard Jewish folk had very little to contribute to Greek culture I would imagine. After all, the die hards fought Hellenistic culture tooth and nail and refused Hellenization. Also, the civilization of the Aegean region goes farther back into history than the 1st Jews. The earliest bronze age cultures of the Aegean go back thousands of years. It is more likely that ancient Greece was influenced by and influenced Egyptian and Sumerian culture. After all, the Aegean peoples were one of the first, if not the first, major seafaring culture in the Mediterranean.

It is also very likely that early Israelites picked up the notion of monotheism from Egypt. Akhenaten was the first recorded monotheist in history. He also existed in the same time frame as the biblical "enslavement" period. Akhenaten did not have much success in converting Egyptians to his monotheistic religion. They rebelled. But, ancient Israelites most likely accepted some form of his ideas.

Next. The Phoenician's, located as they were, between Egypt's complicated Hieroglyphics and Sumeria's complicated cuneiform, created the alphabet. As diverse and different as many alphabets seem they are all clearly descended from the Phoenicians. I have no doubt that the Phoenicians influenced the Greeks --- they have influenced every culture since. The Phoenicians were a sea faring people; their culture thrived on trade. Their alphabet was completed by 1200 BC at the latest(possibly earlier). David & Solomon did not reign until at minimum 200 years after the invention of that alphabet. It is safe to say that the Israelites adopted that alphabet as did just about every culture the Phoenicians came into contact with.

Now, the reason that the Greek Septuagint was created was because that language was the dominant one in the Eastern Mediterranean at the time. As Jews became Hellenized, Jewish individuals living in Greek lands eventually lost touch with their native language and writings over the generations. Hence, this bible was prepared.

Greece did produce great works of philosophy and imagination in their time. However, Greek political history was a series of wars between city-state and city-state. Faction against faction. The only time the culture stood united was when the Persians invaded. Greece did not shrivel. They were simply too busy warring with each other to deal with outside threats. Rome came along and conquered Greece easily. This does not imply that Greece devolved into a primitive state. To many Romans, Greece was a source of inspiration for their culture. The land remained one of the richest, most educated and most populated in the Roman Republic/Roman Empire.

In fact, when the West Roman empire fell to the invading Germanic tribes, the Eastern Empire held firm. What scholars today call the Byzantine Empire was simply to continuation of the Hellenized Roman Empire into the middle ages. It was also the strongest and most stable state until the late 1000's AD. The empire continued Roman traditions and its people referred to themselves as Romans but the empire was thoroughly Greek in language and culture. The empire continued to contribute in the realms of law, art, and religion.

I don't think that Greece ever became a primitive society. They simply came to be ruled differently. To sum up I don't think that Jews jump started Greek civilization. Greek civilization was alive and flourishing at the same time that Israelite culture was doing the same. I do think that all of the cultures of the Mediterranean Basin influenced one another to some degree. Some more than others.

Was about to make a similar thread on this but this will do just fine seems there is a rethinking on the origin of civilization in ancient Greece,first described by Bernal in the mid 80ts as the ancient model,but wasn't widely accepted then now according to the article below there seems to be some kind of paradigm shift taking place.

Ancient Greece, the Middle East and an ancient cultural internet
The ancient Greek world is being recast from an isolated entity to one of many hybrid cultures in Africa and in the East

If you walk through the entrance hall of the Ashmolean Museum in Oxford, you come to a large display case devoted to the ancient world. Here, alongside each other, lie an Iraqi ceramic model of a river boat from around 2900 BC; a model of a covered wagon from Syria from about 2300 BC (collected by Lawrence of Arabia); Cretan jars wreathed with sinuous, octopus designs from about a millennium later; and a sixth-century BC Attic vase from Sicily, decorated with an image of a chariot. The display is designed to illustrate ancient trade routes; but what if it told a deeper story, too? As Tim Whitmarsh, professor of ancient literatures at the University of Oxford says: "What if what we think of as the classical world has been falsely invented as European, for reasons serving the cause of 19th-century imperialism? Should the Greek and Roman worlds, albeit in different ways, be seen rather as part of the Iraqi-Syrian-Palestinian-Egyptian complex? If so, what would that mean for ideas about European identity today?"

www.guardian.co.uk...

reply to post by ElohimJD


What other sources back up J's contention that the Spartans were kindred?

Originally posted by Murgatroid

 

Michael Hoffman's book "Judaism Discovered" covers this in detail here.

Since you believe that "Judaism is a secret Satanic cult posing as a religion" why would they not create a Greek myths or religious books to advance their agenda?

I don't believe in Satan anymore than in a Creator-God, but I also don't believe that the literature came about by coincidence. Monumental accomplishments are made to serve a purpose. The purpose is power.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

 

The better question to ask IMHO is :
"Did Egyptian Hermetic Alchemy and Occult Orders within the religious based governments of the time facilitate, inspire, and promote the expansion of Hellenistic Culture and Civilization?" And the answer to this is Yes.

Let me add, that there were 12 Titans in greek mythology and 12 original Olympians, whereas in the Jewish belief there were 12 tribes and Jesus had 12 original apostles.

I agree that the ambiguities in the terminology makes it difficult to pin down a specifc flaw in the rational that is being presented to the people as factual. I believe this is not done out of weakness but on purpose.

I would agree with your rephrasing of the question to the extent that it credits religious based governments. I say 'credits' because I view Hellenistic culture as a step forward. I don't know why you credit Egyptian Alchemy for it. But again, I agree that there is a power behind those governments that is guiding them. Who or what is that power, IMHO, is what President Wilson is referring to in my signature.

reply to post by Murgatroid

Originally posted by Murgatroid
Judaism is not the Old Testament religion that many believe.

Jesus wasn't a Jew.

He went to The Synagogue, and is also called "Rabbi" in all of these verses:

Mark 9:5 Mark 11:21, Mark 14:45 John 1:49 Gospel of John, e.g. 4:31, 6:25, 9:2 and 11:8

Originally posted by Spider879

 

according to the article below there seems to be some kind of paradigm shift taking place.
www.guardian.co.uk...

Thanks for linking this article.

In Ptolemaic Egypt, for example, where ethnic groups were taxed differently, those classed as "Greeks" included ethnic Egyptians working in the administration, and some Jews.

Jews were privileged in Egypt, NOT degraded or enserfed, in the three centuries leading up to Jesus' time. I don't remember readint that in the Bible. More importantly, why were they given that status? IMO because of their remarkable contribution to Greek culture.

Ro 1:16 The good news is in fact God's power for salvation to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Ro 2:10 Glory and honor for everyone who works what is good, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

1Cor 10:32 Do all things for God's glory. Keep from becoming causes for stumbling to Jews as well as Greeks.