Roswell crash : New whistle-blower (or hoaxer?)

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by Bwise2

 

Sorry man, but this story just doesn't add up.
I don't know if Frank is lying or you are, but someone is.

Why not "Pat" is lying? If Frank recorded what he was told and I conveyed the notes he wrote for me about what Pat said then why are Frank and me coming up looking like liars?

If this caught Isaac's attention, there must be something here worth looking at. Having said that, with just a quick scan through it, I think it's not genuine. What really grabs me is the use of present-day UFO terminology. Even taking in to account that this was a memoir written fairly recently, it's my experience that older people seldom grasp new terminology, especially when it replaces phrases they are accustomed to. "Extraterrestrial Biological Entity" just doesn't roll off the tongue. I'd almost expect a survivor of the era to refer to them as Martians.

Originally posted by CardDown
What really grabs me is the use of present-day UFO terminology... especially when it replaces phrases they are accustomed to. .."Extraterrestrial Biological Entity" .... I'd almost expect a survivor of the era to refer to them as Martians.

Isaac said from the onset that he was suspicious of the content of notes. He helped me because I sought an opinion on the validity of content and posted them for me. EBE was a contemporary term at the time. A civilian might say "Martian" but Frank was in military where they use this expression.(see Dr. Vannever Bush circa 1950)

Originally posted by CardDown
If this caught Isaac's attention, there must be something here worth looking at.

Hey, you'd be surprised at some of the nonsense that sometimes gets my attention - e.g. Steven Greer's Sirius documentary which I've been looking into...

I found these particular documents interesting when the carrot was dangled of diaries from the 1950s, which could have shown that this material wasn't merely a relatively recent fabrication.

As I said in my OP, the reported destruction of those diaries two years ago is rather convenient for any hoaxer...

If further information/evidence is forthcoming, fine. Indeed, I'd welcome further evidence/details and outlined in the OP some of the evidence/details I'd like to see. As I also said in my OP, I don't expect those details to be provided and/or checked out. I hope I'm proved wrong!

If this was a hoax, then I hope the hoaxer admits it and explains their motivation.

Originally posted by BullwinkleKicksButt

I purchase hazardous chemicals in glass winchester bottles and never had an issue with couriers breaking them.
I also purchase fragile laboratory glassware and never had an issue with it breaking during transport.
So I don't see transporting things in glass as an issue.

Have you ever had a glass container filled with fluid that could contain a 4ft tall body delivered to you in a wooden crate labelled as something else that doesn't require fragile handling, stored in such a way that if someone opened the crate, there'd be no intermediary packing peanuts, foam, styrofoam, newspaper,sawdust, hay, human hair, or whatever they used to back in the dark ages 70 years ago to prevent fragile items from breaking during transport?

Were you able to open up your hazardous chemicals and laboratory glassware and have it just sitting there ready to use without any packing material to obscure your view of it?

Please don't insult our intelligences as it applies to shipping glass containers. There are entire cola and alcohol companies that ship liquids in glass containers every day.
There is, however, a huge difference between shipping cola or beer bottles, or even hazardous chemicals and lab supplies which are small, and shipping the most prized, secret, Top Secret find in possibly all of human history in an over sized sea monkey aquarium filled with tidy bowl blue stuff contained in a wooden crate labelled as some airplane part without any packing material.

Granted, the Army isn't renown for mental gymnastics or intellectual fortitude by any means, and there could conceivably be basis for argument on that point alone that they were indeed so stupid, they'd ship the most valuable discovery in human history inside a glass container.
Where, however, did they just happen to come across such a glass container? Are aquariums that could hold a 4ft alien body just sitting around Army bases just in case aliens happen to just fall out of the sky?
It's doubtful.

Compared to simply welding a steel box together or using something already readily available that could suitably be put to use for the purpose and secured, thick glass aquariums for transporting aliens in such a way that anyone can open a box and see an alien body floating around inside are likely in short supply such one would have to actually go out of their way to procure such a stage prop item.

Originally posted by BullwinkleKicksButt

Originally posted by AllenBishop

Originally posted by Druscilla

a,) I have no direct military experience, so, one question I have is; Are personnel without security clearances allowed to handle material(s) above their security clearance, as in this supposed case for manual labor?

No. Absolutely, positively, NO. You have access to what you are authorized to have access to...

Maybe that is your experience, but I have personally seen classified materials/equipment being transported by people at lower classification levels.

And, I assume, the folks WITHOUT a security clearance, get free-reign to inspect, finger-foddle, and tag in Facebook posts, classified materials, with absolutely zero oversight?

If so, I'd let someone know. Always practice safe 'SECS...

I purchase hazardous chemicals in glass winchester bottles and never had an issue with couriers breaking them.
I also purchase fragile laboratory glassware and never had an issue with it breaking during transport.
So I don't see transporting things in glass as an issue.

Dude...seriously? Glass bottles, vs. a 5' long wooden crate with a fish-tank inside?

Credibility...lost...

Originally posted by CardDown
... "Extraterrestrial Biological Entity" just doesn't roll off the tongue. I'd almost expect a survivor of the era to refer to them as Martians.

Yeah, that EBE bidness. While reviewing my own information and assertions in a thread that touches on the mythology surrounding Roswell and other related cases---those basically being MJ-12 and Serpo--I came across the amazing Kandinksy's remarks about the genesis of the term "EBE" that further build upon what Isaac said about the term earlier in this thread in response to my question.

Unsurprisingly, the first use of this phrase/term EBE/EBEN/Extraterrestrial biological entity arose from within this apparent group. The first indirect mention I can think of was from Doty speaking to LMH around the early 1980s. In writing it first appeared in the MJ-12 documents and. to me, has become a fingerprint of the myth-makers.

It has the ring of scientific terminology and no doubt was expected to conjure up images of white lab coats and serious looking scientists. It sorta does, but in a different way.

Even in the early days, Doty's *sources* were pushing the story of Roswell bodies and Holloman landings for treaties - all later content for MJ-12. If you haven't run down some Bob Emenegger, it's worth a punt. You could describe him as an early myth-maker (1970s) and with all the right alleged connections. He claimed to be a CIA asset and spoke of being approached to publicise the Holoman AFB alien treaty. It demonstrates some longevity in the extent of using the alien meme for purposes unknown to us...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by Bwise2

Why not "Pat" is lying? If Frank recorded what he was told

So you wouldn't expect Frank to realize Pat had told him a lie when it was relayed that Corso had jumped in rank from a Lieutenant to a Major in the course of a single day?

If you say so.
I guess it was "Pat" telling the lie.
Sure would be nice to see those diaries. ...
... oh wait.

"Military training had taught Frank to write out everything in a diary. Even unto this very day." (Paraphrasing)

Except when asked about them, they are gone.
This is a hoax clear as day.

Sorry to flood the thread. Just wanted to add one more thought.
As Dru said above, old men often like to tell tall tales. My grandfather is one such old man.
Now, if my grandfather told me this, and I brought it here where it was shown to be inconsistent front to back, I personally would laugh it off as a prank.
But that's just me...

reply to post by The GUT


From what I understand, the acronym EBE has been in use since 1947 or '49. EBE-1 was the supposed name given to an ET found at the Corona crash site.

It should come up in the MJ-12 documents. I don't know if your sourced material makes that link. I haven't had a chance to read it yet.

What is the historical precedent for the term EBE or Extraterrestrial Biological Entity? When does it first show up in the ufological realm?

That's all "Aviary" terminology (Doty, etc.). As mentioned, Corso used the term too, as did Lazar, and others whose stories seem to go hand in hand with the Aviary mythology of alien/US involvement. So, either it is real, or folks are colluding or piggy backing off of former Aviary info.

Personally, and against my better judgement, I have a gut feeling there is more truth in the Aviary material than fiction, though I don't discount that there are deliberate attempts to mislead also.

I'll say this though, assuming the whole Aviary thing is a hoax (and most do), it certainly is an elaborate one, and generally corroborates itself, even with different folks telling the tales. So, if fiction, it is pretty remarkable.

From what I understand, the acronym EBE has been in use since 1947 or '49. EBE-1 was the supposed name given to an ET found at the Corona crash site.

It should come up in the MJ-12 documents. I don't know if your sourced material makes that link. I haven't had a chance to read it yet.

Yes, but that is just a date on docs that may or may not be genuine, so you have to go by when the docs were released, not purported date written. The actual first PUBLIC mention is in the 80's by Richard Doty.

Originally posted by IsaacKoi
In my mind, the term "EBE" is strongly connected with Richard Doty.

I haven't previously looked into the history of the term (but will run a search overnight...) so I wouldn't like to conclusively state that Doty was the original source of the term - but certainly most of the usage I've seen of it was in the context of tales spun by Doty (e.g. Linda Moulton-Howe's discussion of a meeting with Doty inside Kirtland AFB on 9 April 1983 where one of Doty's documents referred to an alien as an "Extraterrestrial Biological Entity").

The term EBE was also used in the X-Files, which borrowed very heavily from the Doty mythology.

Corso's book (published in 1997) also used the term.

I've now had a few minutes to run through the results of the search I ran overnight. As had been my vague recollection, most of the uses of the term "Extraterrestrial Biological Entity" are in the context of tales told by Doty to Linda Moulton-Howe and the documents he reportedly showed her in April 1983 (detailed in, for example, C D B Bryan's book "Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind" in Chapter 4 on pages 119-120 of the Arkana edition, by Vallee in his book "Revelations" in Chapter 2 at pages 40-41 of the Ballantine Books edition.

One book (Mark Featherstone's "Knowledge and the Production of Nonknowledge : An exploration of Alien Mythology in Post-War America") states that the term "EBE" was popularised by Paul Bennewitz - but given the Bennewitz/Doty connection then it may be difficult which of them started using the term first.

(I'll keep an eye out for any earlier printed use of the term).

The later uses of the term EBE by Corso in his book (1997) are in Chapters 6 and 7.

reply to post by The GUT

Or, alternatively, a sometimes brilliant intelligence officer decides that, to throw the Russians off the scent, they can claim it was a flying saucer and kill two birds with one stone. Meaning on the one hand that the secret project is clouded by the ufo allegation---AND just might put the fear into them there Rooskies that we had access to phenomenal extraterrestrial technology.

Not that brilliant. The Russians might assign a hundred agents to come looking in the desert for the Aleeens only to stumble across Mogul itself. Why draw attention to the place? After all, that is where we monitored their A Bomb tests from.

Corso, of course, was a true-blue intelligence professional as well. I, and others, proffer that the ol' boy did one last, deceptive, job for his "alma mater" before he left this pale blue dot.

That makes the most sense. One last disinfo campaign paycheck.

reply to post by IsaacKoi

Why would anyone call an obvious living being a "Biologic"? That term is reserved for microscopic analysis, mostly. Chemical vs Biological? Anything bigger than an amoeba we can tell with our eyes if its "living" or "dirt". Theres no need to label it "biologic".

And why "Entity"? If its dead its a body, not an "entity". If its alive its called something else.

Terms used by intelligence are also typically vague and misleading, anyway. Hearing the code "extraterrestrial" muttered in back rooms won't turn any heads...

I call that reference (EBE) made up civilian or intel bunk to tickle our intellect.

reply to post by intrptr


Biological vs. mechanical would be my guess.

Gazrok,

Yeah, it is doubtful there is anything to find outside the Majestic documents I reckon...from that time period anyways.
It is a fun thing to research, though. I wanna dig deeper this afternoon.

reply to post by JayinAR


Agreed. I first researched the usage of the term a long time ago (around 2002), but could be a lot more info since then. For me, it kept going back to Doty.

reply to post by Gazrok


And William Moore.

Originally posted by Gazrok
Agreed. I first researched the usage of the term a long time ago (around 2002), but could be a lot more info since then. For me, it kept going back to Doty.

And other of Doty's associates and compadres. Doty, in all likelihood, was a foot soldier, not the mastermind, and what we might call a "cut-out" for those familiar with that term.

The Men In Black(OPs) The Aviary & UFOs

For anyone with the stamina to dig rewardingly deep into the above information, keep reading past the part where I seem to chicken out and give up. I did a "gut" check and much pertinent information ensues.

Not wanting to step on toes but....
I am so tired of the continued speculation about Roswell in the 1940's and Area 51.
These old arcane UFO topics only serve to distract and manipulate a discussion that has
so much more evidence and information to offer, as it moves up the timeline to the current day.
Yes we all know that something happened at Roswell. Yes we all know that Area 51 was probably, at one time, a secret facility working with secret things. Yes we all know that the government isn't forthcoming about any of these probable events.
Again I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes. But am I the only one that cringes when they here the words Roswell and/or Area51?