The Flaw In Your Logic Regarding Homosexuality

I'm writing this short-but-sweet thread in reaction to a comment made by another ATS'er on the thread titled "Why being Gay IS a Natural thing"

The comment was this:

Rape, murder, theft, cannibalism--all naturally occurring also.

Now, as someone who's mental faculties run at acceptable levels, I simply laughed this off at first. Surely the average person couldn't hold such a blatantly bigoted and underthought position on the subject. But then I got to thinking - what if someone else sees this foolishness and begins to think it's a legitimate claim?

I'm sure, if confronted, this ATSer, as well as ANY person who thinks in such a logically-flawed manner would argue something along the lines of "I wasn't saying homosexuality is comparable to murder, rape, or cannibalism. I was just saying they're both naturally occuring." But clearly they ARE drawing that ridiculous comparison. If they weren't, they would have no reason to say something so incredibly inflammatory.

In short, I only need ONE sentence to defeat your logic. But for comedic value, I'll add a second.

"Heterosexuality is naturally occuring - just like rape, murder, theft, and cannibalism. I'm not saying heterosexuality and these atrocious acts which don't involve two consenting adults are comparable, I'm just comparing them for absolutely no reason."

Think before you speak... Or write, for that matter.

Why didn't you just reply to him in that thread instead of creating a whole new thread about one reply?

This thread is entirely unneeded and is obviously being used to stir the pot even further. The member was rebuffed in that thread by other members. There is no reason why you couldn't have replied to him there. It sounds like you just wanted to 'show off' so to speak.....

Originally posted by daaskapital
Why didn't you just reply to him in that thread instead of creating a whole new thread about one reply?

This thread is entirely unneeded and is obviously being used to stir the pot even further. The member was rebuffed in that thread by other members. There is no reason why you couldn't have replied to him there. It sounds like you just wanted to 'show off' so to speak.....

Because questioning the logic used is a completely legitimate action, but it wasn't the intended point of that thread. Even if other members turned it into that.

By "stirring the pot" I suppose you mean riling a debate? Debate is largely the purpose of forums.

I'd appreciate it if you responded, rather than bickered.

So allow me to question you directly - do you have an opinion about this type of logic? Do you agree that's it's flawed? Are you here to defend it? Or did you simply take it upon yourself to post something which was unneeded and obviously said to stir the pot?

I just wish that people would stop with this stupid agenda, ok your gay, i'm straight, hes bi, shes a lesbian, who cares? Its specially annoying when they have to shove it in our faces with parades bout it. Russia had the best idea with banning the propaganda.

Originally posted by neobludragon
I just wish that people would stop with this stupid agenda, ok your gay, i'm straight, hes bi, shes a lesbian, who cares? Its specially annoying when they have to shove it in our faces with parades bout it. Russia had the best idea with banning the propaganda.

Right. And we should forget about all other identities as well.

I hate it when those Irish shove their Irish parade down my throat! Next thing you know, they'll actually require me to look at them! I mean, currently I have absolutely no obligation to go to the parade or pay any attention to it, and no one ever tried to force me to, but I just can't help it!

Or when those Catholics are on the news talking about their new pope. It's like, come on, clearly my religion is right and yours isn't! Keep your incorrect beliefs at home, sicko!

Or those black folks practiced civil disobedience and then had the nerve to have a whole month dedicated to their history!! Can you believe that?!?!

Keep it to yourself people. I only need to be aware of myself and people who are exactly like me in every way - why should I have to acknowledge that anyone else exists in the world?

I think they're all icky.

(extreme sarcasm)

Originally posted by neobludragon
I just wish that people would stop with this stupid agenda, ok your gay, i'm straight, hes bi, shes a lesbian, who cares? Its specially annoying when they have to shove it in our faces with parades bout it. Russia had the best idea with banning the propaganda.

Thank you sooooooooo much!!!

Why do gays and other "minorities" have to throw it in our faces all the damn time? I'm so sick of the gays and blacks and hispanics and native americans and everybody bitching all the damn time.

Who cares?!? So what you're gay or you're not gay big deal good for you either way why do you think everyone cares?

I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body but you don't hear me complaining or bragging or whatever you people claim you're doing!

Why is it that people have these 'gay pride parades' anyway? You never here of a 'hetro pride parade'....

Originally posted by ifeelsohigh

Originally posted by neobludragon
I just wish that people would stop with this stupid agenda, ok your gay, i'm straight, hes bi, shes a lesbian, who cares? Its specially annoying when they have to shove it in our faces with parades bout it. Russia had the best idea with banning the propaganda.

Thank you sooooooooo much!!!

Why do gays and other "minorities" have to throw it in our faces all the damn time? I'm so sick of the gays and blacks and hispanics and native americans and everybody bitching all the damn time.

Who cares?!? So what you're gay or you're not gay big deal good for you either way why do you think everyone cares?

I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body but you don't hear me complaining or bragging or whatever you people claim you're doing!

Why is it that people have these 'gay pride parades' anyway? You never here of a 'hetro pride parade'....

edit on 1-7-2013 by ifeelsohigh because: (no reason given)

Look...

Your two options as a gay are to

A) Be quiet and closeted about it
B) "Own it" despite what the popular opinion is

In otherwords

A) Shut up
B) Be prideful

Sure, you CAN be a moderate gay and just accept that you're not allowed to be outspoken about it in public... Just like when segregation was the official stance of the US, you COULD be black and

A) Accept that you're worth less than a white person (in this case - straight person)
B) Refuse to accept it and say "I am a person and you will recognize me as such" until you're treated equally

Imagine a person (a gay person in the modern era, or black person in the civil rights era) who lives on the inbetween. Society sees him as less than a man, yet he sees himself as completely average. Just like everyone else! That person doesn't exist. Because that person is mentally unaware of the world around him,

Originally posted by ifeelsohigh

Originally posted by neobludragon
I just wish that people would stop with this stupid agenda, ok your gay, i'm straight, hes bi, shes a lesbian, who cares? Its specially annoying when they have to shove it in our faces with parades bout it. Russia had the best idea with banning the propaganda.

Thank you sooooooooo much!!!

Why do gays and other "minorities" have to throw it in our faces all the damn time? I'm so sick of the gays and blacks and hispanics and native americans and everybody bitching all the damn time.

Who cares?!? So what you're gay or you're not gay big deal good for you either way why do you think everyone cares?

I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body but you don't hear me complaining or bragging or whatever you people claim you're doing!

Why is it that people have these 'gay pride parades' anyway? You never here of a 'hetro pride parade'....

edit on 1-7-2013 by ifeelsohigh because: (no reason given)

en.wikipedia.org...

newsfeed.time.com...

why do sports teams have parades after they win a championship? to celebrate, and that is what pride parades are for, to celebrate, to express in the freedoms we want,

reply to post by HairlessApe


Comparing homosexuality to the struggles of people of color is the most intellectually dishonest position a person can take on the matter. It's an insult. Ones sexuality is an innately private matter, unlike the color of ones skin, and the nature of ones sexuality is only known to that person and the people they choose to share it with.

Stop comparing gay rights to the civil rights movement, every time you do, you do people like Dr. King and Rosa Parks a great disservice.

reply to post by HairlessApe


No.

I don't think a gay person should be ashamed or be forced to act differently. The point is there is no need to run around telling everyone who will listen that you're gay. Most people couldn't care less. There are some people who are offended and think it's wrong so why poke the bear?

To compare being gay to being black is simply ridiculous.

reply to post by Darth_Prime


So if a group of people marched in a parade to celebrate not being gay then that would be okay in your eyes?

Originally posted by HairlessApe

Rape, murder, theft, cannibalism--all naturally occurring also.

In short, I only need ONE sentence to defeat your logic. But for comedic value, I'll add a second.

"Heterosexuality is naturally occuring - just like rape, murder, theft, and cannibalism. I'm not saying heterosexuality and these atrocious acts which don't involve two consenting adults are comparable, I'm just comparing them for absolutely no reason."

I'm not sure I saw the other thread referenced in the OP, but I definitely see where OP is coming from. Some people seem very anti-homosexual. And because it's not PC to hate on homosexuality, they sometimes resort to "tricky" tactics to paint it in an unfavorable light. On the other hand, not having seen the other thread and comment, I can't quite say if that's what was occurring. To be fair, out of context, I'm not sure drawing that comparison is enough to make me say that. To play devil's advocate here, there is an actual point buried in that comment.

So that my intention is clear here, I'll preface by pointing out that homosexuality is NOT truly comparable to murder (or rape, theft, or cannibalism.) The biggest and most important distinction here is that homosexuality is not inherently immoral (unless you are a member of a religion which tells you that it is.) What I mean by "inherently immoral" is that things which are "inherently immoral" harm others against their will, by the very commission of the act. Like murder, rape, theft, and cannibalism all harm unwilling participants.


Some would argue, however, that homosexuality goes "against the 'natural order' of things." And this is, to a degree, true. I am a male, and biology designed my sexual parts to fit with female sexual parts. When done properly, this will create new life and perpetuate the species. Which (theoretically) is good for the species. Now, if we were a small tribe living in the desert a few thousand years ago, I might be able to come up with a successful argument for why homosexuality is harmful to our society. (This being potentially true for a tribe whose success and even defense were dependent on having a healthy, growing population.) But in the modern day (and especially with over-population being such an emerging problem) that argument can not successfully be made. In fact, at this point in history it might be better for our entire species if there were more homosexuality, and less breeding.

Now, some might argue that homosexuality is a psychological aberration. A psychological disease. And if we're being honest, I think this view is much harder to argue against. And I know this will probably upset some people, especially with the connotations that the term "disease" has. If I had a better, more accurate word, (minus those connotations) I would use it. "Aberrant psychological condition" is more netural, but doesn't quite roll off the tongue, and some might not as clearly understand quite what I'm getting at.

That said, if this view were correct, that would make it a mostly harmless "disease." Completely harmless, were it not for idiotic homophobes and hateful people who can't just peacefully coexist. Now, why do I say "disease?" Well, even advocates of homosexuality, and homosexuals themselves ascribe to the view that you are "born with it." It is not a choice. Someone doesn't wake up one day and decide: "You know... I think I'll start being attracted to people of my own gender, even though I know that may be social suicide in some circles (or my own family) , and I'll catch lots of hate for it, etc etc... but I just want to be so different that big insecure jocks want to beat me up."

Now, "disease" may not seem like the right word, in the regard that homosexuality is something you can not fix or "cure." Nor should it be seen that way. Howevr, for the most part, addiction is considered a "disease" although it realy functions more like a predisposition that you can ignore but never wholly get rid of. And this is the one way in which the analogy drawn earlier is accurate, IMHO. Some people are born driven to steal, rape, or kill. Of course "born with a predisposition" is where the comparison begins and ends, as I pointed out earlier-- since homosexuality harms no one-- and in fact, homosexuals rather enjoy it. (Social stigma aside, who doesn't enjoy exploring their own sexuality?)

But it is something that makes a person function "differently" than the average / norm, and it is something you're born with a predisposition to do. So on that one point, the analogy is accurate.

On all others, it fails.

reply to post by Darth_Prime


Where does the need arise from, that creates the lisping, voice tone changed, actual physical changes, bizarre clothing choices, a desire to wear makeup, complete changes in careers, compulsion to dance and gyrate like jokers in front of a circus, version of gay men.

Bouncing down the street, holding hands and shrieking like little girls is perhaps funny the first few times..but when you are near a large gay bar and you see hundreds of dudes all doing this like a religious rite, it appears to be engineered.

I think for sure, that everyone is different but most hetero males DO feel disgust in every cell of their body when they see this.

You can see clearly that these people are wired totally differently, and are expressing far deeper things than just sexual orientation.

Question, do gays talk about this amongst themselves, or are they truly locked into believing that everything is how it should be, and no one is actually influenced to act in these manners.

It sure looks like someone is doing experimentation on DNA, which creates all these varied states.

P.S. I do not dislike these people at all, and know many, I just feel much more to this story than general "Born this Way" is going on here.

Why do we not stop lying to ourselves that we are just animals and realize far more complex issues are likely at hand.

Originally posted by ifeelsohigh
reply to post by HairlessApe

 

No.

I don't think a gay person should be ashamed or be forced to act differently. The point is there is no need to run around telling everyone who will listen that you're gay. Most people couldn't care less. There are some people who are offended and think it's wrong so why poke the bear?

To compare being gay to being black is simply ridiculous.

I'll play devil's advocate on this one, too. Since being straight is "the norm" you and I don't have to advertise. If I see a average woman, I assume she's probably straight, and thus, I may have a chance with her.

Because a considerably smaller portion of the population is gay, they need to make it known in order to set up different boundaries (or welcome advances.) I mean, would you want half the gay dudes in your city hitting on you just to test the waters, because it was "normal" for homosexuals to stay half in the closet, so to speak?


Or you could just do your thing, and let them do theirs. Who cares if they have a parade? You want to throw a "Straight Pride Parade?" I'm down. Let's get it started....

Originally posted by HairlessApe
Just like when segregation was the official stance of the US, you COULD be black and

A) Accept that you're worth less than a white person (in this case - straight person)
B) Refuse to accept it and say "I am a person and you will recognize me as such" until you're treated equally

Ummmm... The rights of the homosexual community should not be compared to the former rights of the African American community. Unless you want to be enslaved, or only be counted for 3/5 of a person, or not be able to eat a the same restaurants as heterosexuals, then you can talk about that.

As it is, homosexuals have the same rights as heterosexuals, African Americans have the same rights as white people, Hispanics, Asian, or any other race. You are talking about a judgement that someone else makes about you. That will never changed. You will always be judged, be it as a gay person, a black person, or anyone with a difference from someone else. An African American who goes to the deep south will be judged very harshly despite having equal rights. Sure there was reform and African Americans have equal rights, but there is still judgement, and there always will be. You are beating a dead horse and the more you bitch about it, the more it affects you. Best thing to do is just shut up about it and do what you will to be happy.

PS - I have lots of gay friends and they agree with these statements.

reply to post by iwilliam


How can you honestly, or logically, or scientifically claim that only homosexuality is normal in humans, and that all the other manifestations of different behavior are not??

It is beyond hilarious to say that gays are loving, so that is the proof that it is good and all is well... and you cannot compare the angry different people because they only do hateful things.

Originally posted by HairlessApe
I'm writing this short-but-sweet thread in reaction to a comment made by another ATS'er on the thread titled "Why being Gay IS a Natural thing"

The comment was this:

Rape, murder, theft, cannibalism--all naturally occurring also.

Now, as someone who's mental faculties run at acceptable levels, I simply laughed this off at first. Surely the average person couldn't hold such a blatantly bigoted and underthought position on the subject. But then I got to thinking - what if someone else sees this foolishness and begins to think it's a legitimate claim?

I'm sure, if confronted, this ATSer, as well as ANY person who thinks in such a logically-flawed manner would argue something along the lines of "I wasn't saying homosexuality is comparable to murder, rape, or cannibalism. I was just saying they're both naturally occuring." But clearly they ARE drawing that ridiculous comparison. If they weren't, they would have no reason to say something so incredibly inflammatory.

In short, I only need ONE sentence to defeat your logic. But for comedic value, I'll add a second.

"Heterosexuality is naturally occuring - just like rape, murder, theft, and cannibalism. I'm not saying heterosexuality and these atrocious acts which don't involve two consenting adults are comparable, I'm just comparing them for absolutely no reason."

Think before you speak... Or write, for that matter.

I believe the original point to the discussion was whether or not homosexuality was natural.

The moral to be learned from this is that the quality of being "natural" doesn't really have anything to do with acceptability.

Because rape and murder are natural, so are heterosexuality and homosexuality. So are dolphins and white dwarf stars but what the hell does that have to do with anything, especially in regards to the moral acceptance of such things? It doesn't. Comparing apples and oranges within the same bowl of fruit is neither here nor there.

Basically homosexuality is about as comparable to rape and murder as dolphins are comparable to white dwarf stars.
Everything is natural, but why is that relevant?

reply to post by HairlessApe


I must be stupid... I don't get your logic.

I am not against homosexuality in any way,
But the argument you point out is quite a good one to answer to the statement that homosexuality occurs in nature.

So What? Lots of things occur in nature? In nature, a lion kills the offspring of his new mate that are not his- does that mean all stepdads should have the right to do so too??

I just think it points out that your argument is weak, and you'd do better to find another one.
Even those on the same side as you are capable of prefering that people with good argumentation skills speak up for them...

Originally posted by neobludragon
I just wish that people would stop with this stupid agenda, ok your gay, i'm straight, hes bi, shes a lesbian, who cares? Its specially annoying when they have to shove it in our faces with parades bout it. Russia had the best idea with banning the propaganda.

This is the thing about homosexuality that pisses people off! Why can’t you just go about your life without broadcasting your sexual preferences? There is a derogatory name for heterosexual women that broadcast their sexual activity to everyone….those women are usually called sluts. Are those the kind of associations gays want heterosexual people to make; sexual promiscuity and irresponsibility?

Just do your thing...but do it quietly, respectfully and tastefully like most people!

reply to post by ifeelsohigh


why wouldn't it be?

it would be hypocritical of me to want freedoms and deny others, Pride parades are not designed to celebrate 'Anti-Straight' it's to celebrate Pride for ourselves, so a 'Straight Pride Parade' would not be an 'Anti-Gay' march, it would be celebrating what you are proud of, and if that is being heterosexual, more power to you