Judaism, Still Waiting For A Messiah ?

reply to post by dashen

Wha? where? how? Quote please.

Read the entire chapter of Zechariah 13.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by dashen

 

"My servant David" is Jesus. Jesus is the son of David from the human standpoint of ancestry.

No. DAVID is David from the Human standpoint of ancestry.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by dashen

 

Wha? where? how? Quote please.

Read the entire chapter of Zechariah 13.

I did, repeatedly, in the original Hebrew, and with many commentaries over a thousand years old. The word Jesus does not pop-up once.
It does however talk about a spiritual rebirth in Jerusalem foreshadowed by the opening of a wellspring in Jerusalem, whether physical or metaphysical. None of which has happened yet.

reply to post by dashen


Ezekiel 37:25

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Now who has the ability to be their "prince for ever" other than Jesus?

Ezekiel 37:26-27

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Now, let's take a look at the New Testament...

Revelation 21:3

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Revelation 21:22

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Now verse 22 is talking about the new heaven/earth after this one has passed away, but it shows that God/Jesus are one and will be reigning with his people FOREVER, even into the next world to come.

Unless your familiar with the New Testament, the lamb refers to Jesus.

reply to post by dashen


Jesus was born into the line of David for a reason.

Maybe some people need to go back and look at the scriptures regarding "the angel of the Lord". Maybe that will shed some new light on things.

This is precisely why Jesus told everyone that they had never seen or heard God until he came. Jesus was and always has been the voice of God. Through the spoken Word, Jesus created everything, even us. Jesus is God's voice. Jesus is God. The Son is in the Father.

Unfortunately, the Jews didn't recognize his voice when he came in the flesh.

Originally posted by Deetermined

Now who has the ability to be their "prince for ever" other than Jesus?

Prince?



How the hay do YOU know that it's Jesus. He never said that he was the creator of all thing physical and temporal. His birth was scandalous, his death was soon forgotten but for a small cult which failed to gain popularity in the Jewish population. Romans in the north and coptic mystics in egypt however jumped on the band wagon. Fun fact, the earliest known depictions of Jesus was by the coptics, and they have him looking like a many headed Chayot Angel. Bird head, Ox Head, you get the drift. en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by dashen

Originally posted by Deetermined

Now who has the ability to be their "prince for ever" other than Jesus?

Prince?

edit on 25-6-2013 by dashen because: (no reason given)

lol, was that really necessary.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by Boscov

 

Just as first century Judaism has changed so has first century Christianity, the question is, are both generally and generically farther from the their own biblical truths in 2013 that they had back then ?
Or has it been corrupted by the wolves in sheep camouflage ? Corruption of truth never changes it, but it does obscure it with hypocrisy. Something both religions fell victim too, and at great cost.

Christianity is the continuation of the process for salvation God planned from the beginning. Judaism retarded itself in this respect by denying Christ. They did the exact same thing the Lord accused them of in Jeremiah 7:21-24, they went backwards instead of forewards. Ha'Moshicach had come, and his miracles testified of him. They look for their King and he's already come and gone. The thing you have to remember is that not a damn one of us is perfect without him. On our own we are all dead in our sins. Now do they believe in the Lord? Absolutely, they just do not know his name yet. Something you may find interesting is what Apostle Paul said in Romans 10.

Romans 10:12-21

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”[g]

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:


“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,[h]
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”[I]

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”[j] 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:


“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”[k]

19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:


“I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”[l]

20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:


“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”[m]

21 But to Israel he says:


“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”

So technically there are no christians or jews in those who believe in him, we are all Israel in him because he is Israel. At some point the 2 flocks will become one (John 10:15-16).

reply to post by dashen

How the hay do YOU know that it's Jesus. He never said that he was the creator of all thing physical and temporal.

Colossians 1:12-19

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

The glory of God is found in the Son, in which all fullness of life dwells to begin with.

reply to post by RealTruthSeeker


There's more than one rabbi who I have studied about Judaism. Rabbi Tovia Singer is great because he comes at it from all sides and it makes more sense to me. Jews for Judaism is a good resource. As I read your reply it felt like you could sell the idea of Jesus. Pretty good. But as I mentioned before to me it's how the believer sees it. As an atheist I'm skeptical of all religion, but I like to see what others believe in and why. As I learn about the differences between Christianity and Judaism I can see there are similarities as well. To me no one is wrong it's about interpretation. Judaism has very different practices and traditions compared to the majority of Christianity. There's a huge gap that has caused both groups to become distant from each other. Despite them having the same roots.

Originally posted by Phoenix267
reply to post by RealTruthSeeker

 

There's more than one rabbi who I have studied about Judaism. Rabbi Tovia Singer is great because he comes at it from all sides and it makes more sense to me. Jews for Judaism is a good resource. As I read your reply it felt like you could sell the idea of Jesus. Pretty good. But as I mentioned before to me it's how the believer sees it. As an atheist I'm skeptical of all religion, but I like to see what others believe in and why. As I learn about the differences between Christianity and Judaism I can see there are similarities as well. To me no one is wrong it's about interpretation. Judaism has very different practices and traditions compared to the majority of Christianity. There's a huge gap that has caused both groups to become distant from each other. Despite them having the same roots.

I can't argue with that. People believe what they want, but that doesn't make it true. I'm not trying to sell the idea of Jesus, God forbid. But through all my studies it makes the most sense. The God of the Bible is against everything that man want's, things such as lust, greed, homosexuality, you get the picture. When I look at all the religions floating around it's clear to me that they are nothing more than wanna bee's. Pretty much every religion that pops up use Jesus as a starting point. The question is why? If he wasn't that great why mention Him at all in their teachings? Even satanist will quote a verse from the Bible to try and convince that what they are saying is true.

I believe God has given man the ultimate message through Jesus Christ as well as the Old Testament. Everyone wants access to the Kingdom but don't want to follow the rules.

Remember too the prophesy of 70 weeks in Daniel is very accurate in predicting the timing of the messiahs arrival, why do you think Jews strongly believed at first it was John The Baptist, but he told them it's not me.
The current Jewish theology on that is simply revised to fit their dogma, after 70 AD what else could they do.
They have this seemly failed prophesy and they had to make it fit some how.
No Christian can except the current Jewish theology on the 70 weeks without denying Jesus.

Seventy Weeks

Originally posted by dashen

How the hay do YOU know that it's Jesus. He never said that he was the creator of all thing physical and temporal. His birth was scandalous, his death was soon forgotten but for a small cult which failed to gain popularity in the Jewish population. Romans in the north and coptic mystics in egypt however jumped on the band wagon. Fun fact, the earliest known depictions of Jesus was by the coptics, and they have him looking like a many headed Chayot Angel. Bird head, Ox Head, you get the drift. en.wikipedia.org...

edit on 25-6-2013 by dashen because: (no reason given)

Small cult, really?
No popularity in Jewish community, really?

Fun facts are just that fun facts, do you take the coptic image literally? What does it prove? Fun fact, some Coptics worship idols and images, go figure

Jesus and His message are in no way a small cult and were never meant for just the Jews.
One of the reasons the Jews disputed Christ is He took the power away from the power structure in the religion and leaders and gave it back to individuals.
Of course he was opposed

The reason the Jews were blinded to Jesus is because they would never have shared Jesus to the Gentile . The Babylonian Talmud is not inspired by God and is a book of hate towards the Gentile . That same presence was in the Temple leaders when Jesus said that they claim to be Jews but were of the Synagogue of Satan . That same traditional hate for Gentiles might be why God chose Saul /Paul to bring the Gospel to the Gentile .

I have studied this problem and figured out some things that would apply to this thread.

First problem. There is a long term Leviticus 26 curse that's still running that dates from the first century AD.

Easy enough to post this link and let you look at it.www.abovetopsecret.com....

Essentially what happened was the first century Jews managed to botch the first century Apocalypse! What they did was they killed John the Baptist that Jesus Christ claimed was Elijah the prophet. And that triggered the curse.

Also after studying the prophesies. There is still a messiah to come.

Looking at the prophesies of Zechariah and Malachi there was supposed to be 4 messiahs. And this is how it was supposed to work out.

The Lord. Then the 2 Branches or Messengers. Then Elijah the prophet.

One of the Branches/Messenger of the Covenant hasn't shown up yet. Why? It turns out that the Branches/Messengers are also the witnesses of Revelation. So it would appear to me that the 2nd Branch has to show up to rebuild the 3rd temple. And return later to fulfill the Revelation 11 prophecy about him.


So the answer to the question posed is YES. There is a messiah to come.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

No Christian can except the current Jewish theology on the 70 weeks without denying Jesus.

Sure they can.

This "anointed one" would thus have been the High Priest Alexander Yannai (103-76 BC) who came to power just at the end of the sixty-two week period in 103 BCE and was the last of the important Hasmonean leaders. The phrase "after sixty-two weeks" indicates the time frame during which the "anointed one shall be cut off," that is, suffer "excision" (karet). The penalty accompanying karet is here aptly described as "to have nothing," or "be no more."
70 Weeks - Jewish

The Psalms of Solomon were written shortly after Pompey's conquest of Jerusalem 63 BCE. He was thought to be the "alien" who was to wipe out the Hasmonean dynasty, but he only killed a few of them. When Herod the Great was appointed Messiah by Rome, he killed off the rest of them. Therefore the title of "alien" was transferred to Herod the Idumean-Arab.

When Herod the Great died, 4 BC, is the same time Jesus was "weaned", according to some prophecy in Isaiah being recycled. Therefore the time was at hand for a 30 year old son of David to show up and take the throne. Right about the time Jesus was baptized. It all fits.

The Psalms of Solomon were referenced in Early Christian writings, but lost to modern scholars until a Greek manuscript was rediscovered in the 17th century.
. . .
Politically, the Psalms of Solomon are anti-Maccabee, and some psalms in the collection show a clear awareness of the Roman conquest of Jerusalem under Pompey in 63 BCE, metaphorically treating him as a dragon who had been sent by God to punish the Maccabees. Some of the psalms are messianic, in the Jewish sense (clearly referring to a mortal that happens to be divinely assisted, much like Moses),
Psalms of Solomon

Psalm of Solomon Chapter 17
5 (4) Thou, O Lord, didst choose David (to be) king over Israel,

And swaredst to him touching his seed that never should his kingdom fail before Thee.

6 (5) But, for our sins, sinners rose up against us;

They assailed us and thrust us out;

What Thou hadst not promised to them, they took away (from us) with violence.

7 They in no wise glorified Thy honorable name;

(6) They set a (worldly) monarchy[Hasmoneans] in place of (that which was) their excellency;

8 They laid waste the throne of David in tumultuous arrogance.

(7) But Thou, O God, didst cast them down and remove their seed from the earth,

9 In that there rose up against them a man[Pompey/Herod] that was alien to our race.
10 (8) According to their sins didst Thou recompense them, O God;

So that it befell them according to their deeds.

11 (9) God showed them no pity;

He sought out their seed and let not one of them go free.
. . .
22 The king was a transgressor, and the judge disobedient, and the people sinful.

23 (21) Behold, O Lord, and raise up unto them their king, the son of David,

At the time in the which Thou seest, O God, that he may reign over Israel Thy servant

The notes [in brackets] were added by me.

This is rather interesting reading with regards to what happened when the Jews did try to rebuild the temple after it had been destroyed in 70AD. i wonder if other sources confirm this?

www.fordham.edu...

i don't know how one would prove lineage back to David since there are no longer any proven "descents from antiquity".

The other problem is that just about all of us are likely David's descendants at this point (although we do not know how exactly). For example most Europeans living today have Charlemagne (742-814AD) on their family tree.... a much later historical figure.

It is interesting to read early church father Papias' view about Christ 1000 year rule.

through King David's linage an

I have a question for freemasons and Jews.

David and Solomon pbut were prophets , they were no kings. David pbuh didn't commit adultery.

Why do these people introduce them as kings while they were prophets ?

IMO , king of Jordan , king of Saudi Arabia , Alexander and most of the kings are just bloodthirsty lusty greedy people.

God do not chose these sorts of people as leaders for his people.

Just saying.

Originally posted by Deetermined

Originally posted by Phoenix267

Yes, the Jews are still waiting for the promised Messiah. There are a number of requirements for the Messiah in Judaism. Like being a descendent of both Kings David and Solomon; to be a great leader and knowledgeable of the Torah. There is more online I can find for you later. It's interesting the differences and similarities between religions.

That's why the complete Bible includes both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

They both have the same God, (most) Jews just haven't come to that realization yet.

For those who have, they are called Messianic Jews.

So , why they are still Jews then ?

IMO you are agent of Zionism which claims to be owners of the land and resources.

And whenever I criticize Zionism , all of a sudden , you grow up and defend their bloodshed.

The problem with you is that you ask Jews to reconsider looking at Christianity , but you don't reconsider about Islam.

Because it is not according your benefits.

Your interests tell you that you should fight Muslims because they own the biggest resources on the planet.

Zionist are really crawling in this thread.

Good thread OP.