PrismGate -- Something Obama COULD get impeached for.

Bush did it. So Obama gets a free pass... That's how it works, huh?

If, and it is still if, this strongarming/blackmail of SCOTUS Chief Justice is true, it's an impeachable offense.

A quote from Watergate comes quickly to mind.

"what did he know, and when did he know it?" 'Course the likes of Daniel Inoyue aren't around anymore...bunch a sycophants waiting to kiss the next POTUS ass.

reply to post by seagull

Bush did it. So Obama gets a free pass... That's how it works, huh?

Works more like Bush gets all the blame and Obama gets a free pass as per the Axelrod defense.

www.nationalreview.com...

George Orwell says, "I told you so"

In the meantime, some Repubs think the whistleblower should "fry"...Karl Rove specifically... I love when they show what they really believe in.

Oh, and by the by, Joe Biden claimed the Patriot Act was really his.

Impeach Obama so something like Romney could become boss, and turn America into China.

The cheap laborers are already staged and ready to be exploited.

Hmmmm.

Aside from all that noise......CLINTON DID IT !.

Blaming the wrong people seems to be the American way.

(Glass-Steagall)

Originally posted by Rocker2013
I'm sure it also breaches international law

Exactly which "International Law" would that be?

The UN would be forced to make a statement on the credibility of the US leadership.

Who exactly would "force" them to do that?

Originally posted by Rocker2013
I'm sure it also breaches international law

Originally posted by hellobruce
Exactly which "International Law" would that be?

I would need to look into this a little more, but I am certain there are international laws covering the blackmail or other manipulation of political opponents by whoever is in power.

No supposedly democratic government can bypass the system of democratic process and use spying to silence or otherwise stifle political opposition.

The media are protected from such, and I would be stunned if there were not laws in place to hold accountable elected governments who abuse the systems of the state to fight political opponents.

Originally posted by Rocker2013The UN would be forced to make a statement on the credibility of the US leadership.

Originally posted by hellobruce
Who exactly would "force" them to do that?

The court of global opinion.
The UN would lose international credibility if it ignored the illegal activities of a US government. You forget that the UN isn't just an arm of the US government (at least in the eyes of the world). In order for the UN to maintain any credibility or authority it would HAVE to come out against the US government if it were found to have been abusing their intelligence for political gain.

Originally posted by Rocker2013
and I would be stunned if there were not laws in place to hold accountable elected governments who abuse the systems of the state to fight political opponents.

Well, prepare to be stunned - just why do you think the UN can tell the USA how to run the USA?

The UN would lose international credibility if it ignored the illegal activities of a US government.

What credibility? What are the UN doing about North Korea - they refuse to even feed their people!

In order for the UN to maintain any credibility or authority it would HAVE to come out against the US government if it were found to have been abusing their intelligence for political gain.

So what did they do against every communist country or dictatorship - who do that all the time?

Originally posted by seagull
Bush did it. So Obama gets a free pass... That's how it works, huh?

The issue here...and I do believe it is an "issue"...cuz the PRISM program needs to be checked...the issue is that the PRISM program was shared with Congress (legislative branch)...no violation of checks and balances...even the Bush era NSA Director said that the Obama Administration shared more with Congress than he did during the Bush years...the Obama admin. held briefings not with just the intelligence commitees (like Bush did) but also with Congress at large.

So the checks and balances were in place.

That leaves whether unconstitutional violations of Americans privacy is taking place. Even if so, that won't land on the President, but the NSA...and the POTUS will be well out of office by the time the courts rule on that.

Originally posted by seagull
If, and it is still if, this strongarming/blackmail of SCOTUS Chief Justice is true, it's an impeachable offense.

That would burn the whole house down and not just the POTUS...but that is also pure fringe right idealogical fiction...rumor...smear...And NOTHING has been shown otherwise. There is a desperate scent to these types of stories, where legitimate issues are twisted and smothered in unsubstantiated rumor in hopes of aligning it to partisan vitriol...Obama and Obamacare. Personally, I think these kinds of rumors erode the credibility of those fighting a just cause.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


He 'could' and he should be impeached for this but we all know he won't.

The spying part is sadly legal. However what's been done with the information warrants questioning for sure, I have no doubt that somewhere if anyone cares to dig deep enough is something that could be grounds for executive impeachment. However it's not likely to be found within Obama's remaining days as President, nor is it likely that any assembly line (D) or (R) will push this, they like it... both sides. Well maybe they don't like it, but they forget as soon as their corporate master waves a treat in their face.

reply to post by Indigo5

That would burn the whole house down and not just the POTUS...but that is also pure fringe right idealogical fiction...rumor...smear...And NOTHING has been shown otherwise. There is a desperate scent to these types of stories, where legitimate issues are twisted and smothered in unsubstantiated rumor in hopes of aligning it to partisan vitriol...Obama and Obamacare. Personally, I think these kinds of rumors erode the credibility of those fighting a just cause.

Very true. Until we see some proof (and at this point there is NONE!) it is fiction.

If proof of the SCOTUS blackmail story did come out, would you be surprised? (not rhetorical, I really am interested in what you think about it)

Originally posted by butcherguy

Very true. Until we see some proof (and at this point there is NONE!) it is fiction.

If proof of the SCOTUS blackmail story did come out, would you be surprised? (not rhetorical, I really am interested in what you think about it)

Short answer? Yes. For the following reasons...

(A)
Justice Roberts ruling on the case was not unexpected to court followers...He is legacy minded and less idealogical than the left often paints him. He also is mindful of crafting his place in the history books. Both of those factors spoke to his decision on Obamacare. It offered him a rebuttal to those that falsely painted him as an idealogue and it cemented his place in history. No blackmail required...

(B)
The NSA is not a tool of the President...they honestly could not care less about his social agenda...he is just the guy in the seat for a few years...they were there before him and will be there after him and they have no reason what-so-ever to step so massively out-of-bounds as to risk EVERYONE ...Directors, Budgets, Operations...risk burning down thier entire near Trillion dollar house, just to do the POTUS a solid on healthcare? ...HEALTHCARE??? Nonsense. It's not thier wheelhouse...they don't care.

(C)
Glen Beck....ahem...Glen Beck!

(D)
No evidence....This story's value is in the RUMOR...That is why it is being "buzzed" rather than simply released with whatever evidence he claims.

If this was "real"...when stories like this are real-world...You leak the info along with the evidence and source at the same time, that way evidence and people don't "dissappear"...PRISM/SNOWDEN.

You don't buzz it as a rumor...where if true would scramble powers to plug the leak and recover evidence.

It's just not the way it is done.

It is done like this when the RUMOR is all you got...you spin it out and let it ruminate...cuz your return on the rumor is the only value when you are lieing.

(E)
IF...IF he releases evidence...it will be an anonymous "source"...cuz as long as you say your source needs to be anonymous for fear of his life, you can use your dog fido as an "inside source".

reply to post by Indigo5


Thanks for your thoughts.

I wouldn't be surprised, but I only have one main reason for it.

Washington is a seething cesspool of human debris that contains a lot of people that would sell their mother's soul for more power (or a romp in the sheets with someone special).

I don't think it would be difficult for a President to place a person within the NSA that could do his special info collecting.

ETA: No one has to tell me that I'm cynical, I already knew that.

Originally posted by butcherguy

Washington is a seething cesspool of human debris that contains a lot of people that would sell their mother's soul for more power (or a romp in the sheets with someone special).

Well...my reasoning was not centered on moral or ethical concerns....Ethical/unethical, moral/immoral or even legal/illegal...a move like this would be uneccesary, illogical and crazy stupid...and the NSA or WH is a lot of things, but not that.

Originally posted by Indigo5

Originally posted by butcherguy

Washington is a seething cesspool of human debris that contains a lot of people that would sell their mother's soul for more power (or a romp in the sheets with someone special).

Well...my reasoning was not centered on moral or ethical concerns....Ethical/unethical, moral/immoral or even legal/illegal...a move like this would be uneccesary, illogical and crazy stupid...and the NSA or WH is a lot of things, but not that.

edit on 14-6-2013 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

A lot of leaders in history have been illogical and crazy stupid, and their minions followed them blindly.
Not saying that is the case here, just that crazier things have happened.

reply to post by butcherguy


BTW I also think folks are focusing on "impeach Obama" as an idealogical, natural, knee-jerk...and it risks an outcome where nothing changes.

The difficult truth is that the PRISM program appears legal...Theoretically through the Patriot Act, the FISA court and congressional oversight....both of which SUCK at thier jobs. You can chase "Obama" or you can focus on changing the SYSTEM that makes it legal for future administrations to do the same and worse.

"Mr President, nobody is saying that you broke any laws,

...we're just saying that it is a little bit weird that you didn't have to." ---John Oliver's closing comment of the first segment of last night's Daily Show.
(John Oliver is sitting in for Jon Stewart this summer.)

Indigo5 insert [FISA theoretically needs to be asked whenever the NSA wants to spy on Americans, Snowden claims that FISA is often NOT asked, but when they are asked....]

*"The FISA Court has to approve anytime the NSA wants to pull information out of this database."

"Last year, the NSA asked the FISA Court 1,789 times for authority to conduct Electronic Surveillance.

The FISA Court did not deny ANY of the Surveillance Requests."

"So they NEVER say NO.

We've essentially got NOTHING to hold the government back than a Rubber Stamp Court" (John Oliver comment)

www.democraticunderground.com...

The QUESTION folks should be asking is NOT...Is this Illegal enough to Impeach Obama??!!...but rather ...How the eff did we end up in a place where this IS legal??? And how can we change it!

Obama is murdering Americans and isn't getting impeached for that.

He took $1 Billion of the Veterans Affairs Budget meant for medical-supplies, implants, surgical equipment....and moved it into another account. The public release said he was "moving it into another account for next years VA Budget"....BS.

Look at all the VA Hospitals re-using insulin pens, re-using enema hoses on patient after patient after patient.....giving all those Americans diseases from other people. Lack of sterilization of supplies for surgery.....

He's killing Americans.....and ain't getting impeached.

He'll never get impeached. The threatened the Republican Party and Corporate America that if they don't stay on his ship....he's siding with Russia and will do a repeat of the Civil War.....get Russia's help to kill them and steal their companies...land...entire regions of the US.

That's why the Democratic Conventions kept throwing pictures of the Russian Naval Fleet as a backdrop to their conventions....hinting to the other side.

I am not a supporter of Obama, however he is the president and I respect that. I will be amazed if the US ever has a president that I actually support. I feel that those who make it to the Oval Office are selected not elected and until that changes there will not be a president I can proudly say I support.

There is a lot of rabble about these scandals but my gut tells me the domestic spying campaign has been going on a lot longer that his presidency and out of his control for many reasons. He is just taking the heat because he is the one who happens to be in charge when the info was leaked.

reply to post by Indigo5

BTW I also think folks are focusing on "impeach Obama" as an idealogical, natural, knee-jerk...and it risks an outcome where nothing changes.

Absolutely!
We can't change what's going on by changing the man in the White House.

A big problem is that while what has happened is legal, it is not Constitutional. The next problem is that when something is a secret from the people, we have to rely on those with the oversight to present the questions of Constitutionality to the SCOTUS.

Apparently, the FISA court had an issue with the Constitutionality of the way that PRISM was being utilized, but the Justice Department is fighting against the release of that ruling. The people charged with oversight knew about this, but precious few said anything, and only one tried to do anything about it.
The Executive branch is fighting against the people being informed that the Constitution is being violated. The Legislative branch is sitting on their hands. The Judicial branch can't act if the problem isn't presented to them.


Where does that leave us?

reply to post by Indigo5

That would burn the whole house down and not just the POTUS...but that is also pure fringe right idealogical fiction...rumor...smear...And NOTHING has been shown otherwise. There is a desperate scent to these types of stories, where legitimate issues are twisted and smothered in unsubstantiated rumor in hopes of aligning it to partisan vitriol...Obama and Obamacare. Personally, I think these kinds of rumors erode the credibility of those fighting a just cause.

If true. You did notice that I used "if"? I'm well aware of the political use of smear campaigns. Hardly unique to the fringe right. The left uses it. The right uses it. The center uses it.

As far as those sorts of rumor eroding the credibility of those fighting a just cause, you have a valid point. Investigate the rumor, but be careful how you report them, unless you've incontrovertible proof.