What do Christians follow, The World or Jesus?

reply to post by BlackManINC


Sorry to tell you, but the antichrist has already come in the form of Paul and he has already given billions of people this "strong delusion" that you mentioned. You are suffering from that delusion by ignoring logic and reason when discussing the bible.

How about we not encourage people to follow parts of the bible
they dont already, you see along with that stuff you posted is
allot of other stuff, about taking slaves and what you may
or may not do to them and their wives, how to kill them and keep
your get into heaven free card, any book that condones and
encourages murder and slavery should be seen for exactly what it is.
Jesus says its ok to do those things, sorry but this man didn't know morality
from immorality apparently, as ive been saying, religion needs
real morality something fierce.

No.
Second line.

I've seen many Christians who have done many wonderful things for their community via individual charity and through their churches. A lot of this you will not see in the paper or on the news. We don't provide charity to say, "See look what I've done." No, its not what you done, its what the Lord has done. Many of these churches and organizations provide food, cloths, medical care, housing, shelter for battered women, drug and alcohol programs, anti human trafficing programs, outreach missions to the poor, the list goes on. Are these examples of being worldly Christians, or Christians trying to make a difference in their local communities and the world? I can give a list of hundreds of Christian charities around the world, and it doesn't include what individuals and churches contribute. Many good things are being done through the power and will of the Lord.

Non-believers love to point out the bad churches and make them the centerpiece of their argument that Christianity is immoral. It's true, their are bad churches and bad pastors; however, these make up a fraction of the whole. We, as a fallen humanity, need to understand that each and every one of us are sinners. Sometimes the best of causes can be manipulated by our advasary, the fallen cherub. It is indeed the nature of this broken world. The fallen one loves nothing better than to destroy and to deceive. The work of Jesus will continue regardless of him and evil in the world.

I think, however, the OP is talking about individual Christians, or those who claim to be one. Yes, there are many who call themselves Christians but are they really, God knows. So do we follow their example as to what a Christian is, or what born again regenerative Christian is?

Remember:

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.(Matt.7:21)

So, really it is an individual issue between you and God as to if you are following what He says. It doesn't matter what someone on the internet thinks, or if someone is picking apart scripture like a vulture to make you stumble. The issue is...do you have a personal relationship with Jesus. Are you testing yourself with the word of God and not the world of man? Are you advancing the Kingdom of Heaven through how you live? That is what one should be concerned about, not what others think. In the end, is your mind and heart on the King of Kings, or is it rebellious like the fallen cherub? That's what is truely important. No one can decide that but you.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by BlackManINC

 

Sorry to tell you, but the antichrist has already come in the form of Paul and he has already given billions of people this "strong delusion" that you mentioned. You are suffering from that delusion by ignoring logic and reason when discussing the bible.

If anyone would look into the history of early Christianity, there were lots of disagreements even disputes between the followers of the original apostle vs the followers of apostle Paul.

Paul was often accused of being a false prophet by the early Christians and not the other way around (not the original disciples and their followers).

Paul's teachings tend to have serious loopholes and some were in direct contradiction to what Jesus and His disciples taught.

The circumstance regarding Paul's vision of Jesus is in question too for Jesus warned His original apostles not to believe anyone who say they saw Jesus - after Jesus returns to Heaven. Jesus promised to return for the elect (not to teach Paul)

This also puts the infallibility of the Bible in question. Not to worry though, Jesus promised us the Spirit of Truth which is not the Bible (John 16:13)

Originally posted by darkbake
No.
Second line.

Oh sorry, I meant the world.

If I'm not mistaken, America is one of, if not THE most Christian country on Earth. It's also the most materialistic and self-entitled country on Earth as well. I don't think that's a coincidence. Christianity teaches that just believing gets you into heaven, so they can do whatever they want. Jesus' teachings be damned.

with all due respect, ..mistaken

go read the *commandments* of Jesus (not the 10 commandments, not the OT law, just the commandments of Jesus) - these "commandments", and following them, are the definition of "christianity" (assuming you believe Christ fulfills the [old] law, and died for all who accept and obey him) ..if not we are still waiting for the first messiah to show up (but i'm getting ahead of myself)

..is America the most christian nation on earth then? by those definitions?

indeed, it could be said to be the most materialistic and self-entitled nation on the earth, as you went on to comment

The idea that salvation is a free pass that has to do with belief is evidence enough isn't it? They may not specifically say "do whatever you want", but they imply it with their "free pass" ideology.

again, i can only direct you to the bible to thoroughly study the supposed 'requirements' of being saved, yes, these are also issues i struggle with and would be happy to discuss, but it ought to be clear that "just believing" in Christ is not sufficient.. is 'just believing' in a fire-extinguisher going to put out the fire? hehe.. there's a small degree of participation required, nyah?

try not to let those things excuse your own behavior, if you know what i mean? ..this is why the bible tells you the whole world will be against you.. isn't it already that way? isn't that why we're at a conspiracy forum?

in all of this we are talking about individuals (who then go on to make up nations) note how this (christianity) is a type of 'government' that operates from the people upwards, the beliefs being instilled in all peoples.. opposed to how the governments of the world are actually set up (all controlling with their ideologies from the top down)

..i liked the "do as thou will" reference

do you think the founding fathers were "christians"? (and be sure to apply the real context of the word now) what makes you think the USA was ever a christian nation? more like a corporation, only taxpayers could "vote" ..it's like saying the vatican represents "God"

so we start see here how this stuff is "organized" (always from the top down, never of "the people".. 'the people' naturally have a hard time among themselves, so some kind of "law" is naturally required.. and some gov.org.biz always steps up and takes charge).. and i'm following your posts

What church doesn't teach salvation is free through belief?

as someone enlightened, you'd probably tell me [modern] "church" > [old english] kirk > [even older greek] circe, ...right? (circle) ..so a circle or group is teaching salvation through belief.. it should also be apparent now that any such intermediary (group, organization, etc) is not required.. only Jesus.. he is that intermediary..
..meanwhile, some of us are living by faith

How I "feel" is irrelevant and a game played upon fear and emotion that I no longer play.

I was simply stating a fact. If I were to blame anything it would be the individuals within the "Christian" churches who believe this earth shall be wiped away and new one created therefore do not be the good steward to Gods work. The individuals who sit around waiting for a "Savior" to rescue them and this world instead of finding the God like spark inside of them. I would blame the Pastor/Priest/Leaders for not pointing their flock to being the good gardeners of the Lords Fields instead of burning them to stubble. I would blame those same heads of The Bride of Christ for not using that money to fund not larger gold laden beautified churches/Temples/Cathedrals and instead clothing, and housing the poor and destitute and preserving beauty in the Nature God designed...

i should get paid for this.. honestly..
look, you are still playing it (the fear and blame game) i ask how it relates to you, (and) if none it makes sense tell me and PREDICTABLY (and twice) you've come back with a huge litany of what other people are doing (i hope i addressed some of this above) i am constantly saying to you - can it influence you? can it make you a better person? you are constantly like a fighting child "look, they're doing it more than i am"

they are not even practicing what they preach. read the commandments of Jesus. then read the whole bible. then get it on mp3 at firefightersforchrist.com and listen to it over and over again... like the TV is trying to do brainwash yourself (with the bible) and obey the teachings of jesus

you will find it even tells you to "test all things", you will find a story about a prodigal son..

[continued]
so far this is nonce stuff

Salvation was earned through Jesus sacrifice and we have salvation through accepting that sacrifice and through FAITH ... not belief. That's different. Even the demons believe that Jesus is the Son of God. But that doesn't get them into heaven. (not that they'd want to be there anyways .. demons would hate it)

"and faith without works is dead" ..nice use of scary demons here to get us back in line belief through fear, exactly what i'm trying to bust through.. the demons believe because they know, yeah.. but we don't.. you have to consider how demons use deception, seduction, etc because they are not in truth - the bible is stern, somewhat forthcoming, etc in warning on all this "stuff" because it is in truth (things are switched around)

Isn't that correct? Or is something more than faith needed? If works are needed it is no longer free, but comes at a price.

heh.. here's that fire-extinguisher again.. or in this case, the knowledge and ability to "swim", as we say, to keep ones head above the water.. are you going to 'move a muscle' to save yourself? in this sense, the ability to swim isn't free, it's going to require you making a choice and acting on that choice.. if you didn't know how to swim (how to supposedly live "holy) you wouldn't even have an idea of what to do, ..the difference between flailing your arms in the water and using them in the required manner.. one will eventually sink you, the other will eventually save you

..along comes a small speedhump

Christianity doesn't teach people can do whatever they want... however, it offers a quick fix solution for people who do whatever they want.

Christianity teaches that one needs to only accept that Jesus died on the cross for their sins. Tell me... if the most wicked, immoral, sinful human accepts Jesus died on the cross for his sins.... is he not redeemed of all his sins?

the first part taken on its own, no. it would take too long to go over all that again (some was addressed above) we'd have to go over all new angles, i'll wait rather than pre-empt what you might have to say further here..

the second part, yes. i think Nebuchadezzar? Mannasah? the thief next to christ on the cross, others like Enoch could be mentioned here?. there are many studies on all this, many available at the fire-fighters for christ tape ministry series. we only have the bibles accounts to go on for sure and they all seem to be key figures, i could accept this was all done just to tell the story?

it's not like this is the craziest part of the bible anyway. we're talking about some guy nailed to a cross who saves everyone?.. does it matter *who* calls on him? i would think it's somewhat designed this way, as Jesus says "the doctor has to be where the sick are"
....as this comment simply put it

But if he accepts Christ, and then goes back to being "the most wicked, immoral, sinful human", it's hard to see that he was repentant, no?

testing all things is not "do what you want".. the one who knows all hearts and minds knows this.. there is also apparently a hierachy in the heavenly kingdom (see Matthew 5:19) ..are we even talking about "heaven" here? (the home of God) or some kind of kingdom it establishes on earth? (Rev 21:2 ?) honestly, i don't see what's so difficult about all of this nonsense, apparently a "normal" person believes in UFO's these days (as opposed to God) and right here in the revelation we have what seems to be a space-ship coming down and becoming like some kind of city... /inhales crack-pipe deeply

see how insane all this is? ..but it all hinges on "Jesus" - is he the son of "God", does he "save" us? ...personally i think it's true.. and i say that almost reluctantly, because i am fully aware of how crazy it sounds.. but we are talking about spiritual things.. not physical things.. and the work is done on the human soul not on the earth (blah blah) and from what i can put together from cereal packets and fragmented memories is if Jesus isn't real we're in big trouble.. (eph 6:12)

I never said working for salvation was a bad thing, I think that's a better concept than faith and faith alone. I don't care for a free gift, I like to earn what I get. All I was pointing out was the contradictions within said belief. They think it's free, but faith without works is dead, which means it's not free.

all along i realize i am posting to a person who knew better anyway
..after a while, you can see that a mile off
..people who are half-way through
which is probably why that member chose to go with this one

So works aren't needed and you can do whatever you want. Thanks for clearing that up for me

..this guy isn't quite ready for proverbs 1:7, 9:10, Psalm 111:10, Job 28:28

/like some post-apoc movie watching survivors wandering looking for sustenance

statement)
"So works aren't needed. Thanks for clearing that up for me."

reply)
In the scenario that you presented, no, they are not. ETA: I see that you edited your post to misrepresent what I said, thanks. No, a Christian cannot "do whatever they want" -- in your example, prior to accepting Christ, the person was not a Christian, so their behaviour is not reflective of Christianity, and if they were to make an amazing recovery after their conversion and not die, they couldn't just go back to their old behaviours and remain a Christian.

let's go into a little more detail here.. so that none should "perish" and that we all might have jobs as street-sweepers in the heavenly kingdom

how "efficient" is the "modem" in your head? ..most people seem to still be on dial-up, you know what i mean? and making that choice is like downloading a large file from the internet.. the act of living and obeying is like your "connection" to the host site... how "good" is the modem in your head? you know what i mean? are you going to use that little 5kb bandwidth to surf for porn while downloading from God? you'll never finish "getting" the God file, you know what i mean?

opening it and running it (which is another type of obeyance altogether and means nothing to the likes of you ) is a whole other story, this is when you actually love the rewards you get from all this..

so on the deathbed.. how "holy" is that modem in your head now? you think you've got satellite access to the internet at 10,000 kbs per second and you've probably been through all the esoteric stuff (which didn't save you from that deathbed, btw) and you think, "no worries, i can download that file just quickly now and run it..."

..it doesn't work that way (see revelation 3:16)

No such thing as a christian country. You won't find a theocracy anywhere sporting a 100% christian ruled government, so yeah that question is easily answered.

:tu: exactly.. (starred)

If you have faith in his sacrifice then you also believe His words. His words say to try not to sin. Just 'doing whatever you want' isn't exactly the same as 'trying not to sin'.

:tu: exactly.. (starred)

i even go one further and encourage the person to "test all things" -- to test using *what* as a measuring stick?

it's within.. the modem in your head (the thing you plan on using at the last moment, remember?)

..like i said on page 1 "how do you feel about any of this?"
do you think maybe if you let the modem atrophy it might deteriorate?
not wither away completely..
..but in no way is it going to be the 10,000 kbps thing you think it is at that stage
check Romans 1:28 (read the whole passage)

i know it probably doesn't make sense right now but it'll be in the back of your mind, festering away, one day it'll all come together and more, and that day doesn't need to be too late

So how about we throw out the "Christian Country" and go by majority rules (let's say 70% or higher...) Does that seem fair to you? A majority of the population sets its culture and its policies. Basically are you telling me any countries, states, and cites where the population has a majority of Christians (Currently the USA is just below 80%) isn't run by Christians? Do you really want to argue that? Really? Or would rather admit that most "Christians" live in the world than by Christ's words?

see, this is willful ignorance..
you abandon the first premise: these supposed "christian nations" (..you came to see these countries are hardly "christian" countries)

now what? ..majority rule? even 99% truth with 1% poison is still deadly, nyah?

do you see now why this is all down to YOUR (individual) choice?

..it's like.. who are you going to vote for?

..the bible says you can even pray in secret

www.abovetopsecret.com...
good response by "lonewolf"
a possible clue: note how that member and myself have usernames that reflect a type of individuality (a lone wolf, a unit) ..note how we push the same conclusions here, and how i'm stressing the emphasis of capitilazing on that facet of "individuality" yourself (make a choice for yourself, forget about large groups etc)

be personally responsible



...but wait, there's more

reply to post by adjensen


But in that scenario, he did whatever he wanted to do without repercussions. He believed on his deathbed, and since you believe he would get into heaven, you believe he could have done whatever he wanted to.

I'll say it again: in that scenario he could do whatever he wanted to do, as long as he ended up believing. It doesn't matter what he does after his conversion, the fact that he was allowed to get away with doing all of those horrible things means he did whatever he wanted and still got saved.

That's the problem with faith, it is a GIANT loop hole that anyone can use to justify their wrongdoings. As Paul said, people are justified by faith apart from the law, meaning his deathbed conversion justified everything he did previously. I didn't misconstrue what you said, I just expanded on it.

...and how did my previous post start? with this outburst

So works aren't needed and you can do whatever you want. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

and how does this post now start? ..with *this* outburst

Thank you for proving my point. If we have a vote and this country is 80% Christians they are part of this world. EXCUSES! Christians fight wars, Kill their neighbors, don't recycle, guzzle gas, watch porn, shop till they drop, ,commit adultery, have abortions and hundreds of other things Of this world...unless you believe that only 20% of this population does it alll??? RIDICULOUS!

indeed. this is still running off the assumption that 80% of the people are "christians"

it seems you are intent on flogging a dead horse?

i know what ails you... you want to do things your way.. how do i know? ..because i once also wanted to do things my way.. we're not the only ones (read isaiah 14)

look, didn't you just finish saying this?

So how about we throw out the "Christian Country" and go by majority rules (let's say 70% or higher...) Does that seem fair to you? A majority of the population sets its

but you're back selling a "christian nation" again...

for what it's worth;
DEMOS = mob
CRATIC = rule

democracy = "mob rule"

how is democracy anything like "christianity"?

..now what else i wonder is coming down the pipe as i read all this?
suddenly you pull a rabbit from your hat

As usual we can spout scripture all day. But I am here to tell you were this your home and it was treated with such disrespect would you reward the tenants? And you tell me you awaiting the next? You have buried your talents and your heads...

1 John 2:15, James 4:4, Gen 3:15~17, Gen 6:4 Isaiah 64:6, Ephesians 6:12, Amos 5:8, Rev 22
and the guy was punished at the end of all that.. just like all those "christians" will be..
so, what are YOU going to do? ..are you going to try and obey the Christ? ..or are you just part of that mob?

God allowed us this Earth and we have trashed it, abused it's wealth, disregarded our fellow men God's creations through war and indifference! In the return I would expect the master would love to see this place gleaming, and more beautiful upon arrival.

..indeed, it was even God who cursed it, remember?
we're talking about modern day "christians" in the world aren't we? not original sin.. you jump around all over the place, hehe

it's not the first time God's pulled the plug on things.. read up on the days of Noah, there is an entire study here in itself.. none of this is a surprise to the "God" ..it even created aprons (hint) for mankind first in the genesis story when they first "sinned", but i'm not helping by saying that.. what i should have said is do some study on what the second coming (last days) are supposed to be "as the days of noah were"

I am sorry but this sounds like a typical "Christian" response give me excuses and refuse ownership in your duties of your masters house. When your master returns they expect a reward? You expect a heaven when they have allowed his house to become(created) a hell? If the Masters Journey is almost over do you think telling him you were a good "Christian" will cut it or will the evidence of the shape of this house speak differently? Foolish...

see what i underlined? that's what you've been doing

..who's your master?

for many are called, but few are chosen
beware! for we know NOT when the master of the house returns (applies to us all)
a good deed is its own reward
the world lies in the grip of the evil one
by grace alone we are saved
(about "building houses") this (christ) is the stone the builders rejected
the tree is known by the fruit
the fool says in his heart, there is no God

If the Masters Journey is almost over do you think telling him you were a good "Christian" will cut it or will the evidence of the shape of this house speak differently? Foolish...

troll that's what we've been telling you about the deathbed confession

No one truly embracing Christ's teaching, would ever resort to murder, that is considered anathema and those who do not try to live the life, are not one of us. One thing you cannot do is ride the fence, you're either all for him or not at all.

exactly. (psalm 1:2)
once you understand what it all means.. it is truly a thing to be thankful for, truly a thing to be worshipped..

Jesus is the ultimate tinfoil-hat wearer.. people who visit conspiracy sites should appreciate this much

You're right, they just go around blowing Muslims up and killing people who disagree with them. You must have a short memory, because the Crusades and Inquisitions weren't THAT long ago. Christianity is far from having a squeaky clean record as you apparently believe.

..and i expect this is all just more trollish behavior
/something about pearls and swine

reply to post by UNIT76


Are you aware that you're quoting different posters as if they are one person?

If you choose to ignore all the bad things that have been done in the name of Christianity then that's your own blindness talking. I wasn't trolling, only pointing out the historical FACT that the Crusades and Inquisitions were carried out in the name of Christianity. Look it up yourself and take off your blinders.

What pearls? All I've seen so far is you parroting what a corrupt church teaches you. Think for yourself. You are awfully self-righteous aren't you? Jesus told us to be humble, you are the opposite of humble.

trollish troll is win

we already established the "church" (the circle) is an intermediary

we've told this guy (or at least i have, several times) to make his own decision on the matter, ..now he's telling us to think for ourselves?

..how is it 'self-righteous'? we didn't make any of it this way.. God did.. the book tells us we are like filthy rags and we agree with it, how is this self-righteous? ...who's going to run and hide when Jesus comes? you or me?

Jesus told us to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves

The Biblical view of the origin of life is synonymous with everything else ever taught in the Bible. If Genesis is a myth, just an allegory, or is wrong, the book that tells us how this whole conflict between God and Satan started, then that automatically invalidates the rest of the Bible as well as the salvation promised to us by the very God that started it all and taught Genesis as real history.

..the only thing i dispute, taking a bite from an apple? c'mon..
maybe if the tree of life were DNA or something? (a metaphor?)
it's just hard to believe two beings in the presence of "God" would disobey..
..even though they were beguiled by a talking snake

but you're right.. in for a penny, in for a pound.. and this is what i'm *in* for..

Sorry to tell you, but the antichrist has already come in the form of Paul and he has already given billions of people this "strong delusion" that you mentioned. You are suffering from that delusion by ignoring logic and reason when discussing the bible.

..google that last night did you?
and finally we have it, this person knows a lot more than they first made out, don't they?

instead of "posting the truth" they want to provoke people into defending the faith so they can slowly poke holes in it.. why not just come out on page 1 and say this? ..what else have you got up your sleeve?

How about we not encourage people to follow parts of the bible they dont already, you see along with that stuff you posted is allot of other stuff, about taking slaves and what you may or may not do to them and their wives, how to kill them and keep your get into heaven free card, any book that condones and encourages murder and slavery should be seen for exactly what it is. Jesus says its ok to do those things, sorry but this man didn't know morality from immorality apparently, as ive been saying, religion needs real morality something fierce.

this is more like it.. but how do i know these are the words of someone who believes in the mastery of their own soul and reincarnation
can you post references please?
or should i just jump the gun and assume you're mixing OT with NT?
taking slaves?. what to do with the men, women and children?.. kill them of course.. genocide of the rephaim, nephilim, etc.. is this what you're referring to?
..quotes would help.

what do you mean religion needs morality?
you want action. then complain when action is taken.

you don't understand morality.

i know this much because i know you're one of the ones who wants to pour all the paint colors together so they make a browny grey color.. you think that's fair when it's not.. that's why things have to be seperated

read Matthew 13

Are you aware that you're quoting different posters as if they are one person?

yes, that was the intention of my diatribe, to address it all.. don't worry, i won't be posting again here for a while now

all had a very similar point of view when critical of the bible, this is why i posted a response as if to one person

If you choose to ignore all the bad things that have been done in the name of Christianity then that's your own blindness talking. I wasn't trolling, only pointing out the historical FACT that the Crusades and Inquisitions were carried out in the name of Christianity. Look it up yourself and take off your blinders.

yep. wide is the road and narrow is that gate.

so now this is all about the crusades and inquisition is it?

[removed]



so i make 3 or 4 posts and that's all you can come back with...?

reply to post by UNIT76


Who are you talking to?

See the link in my Sig?

Please use the reply button

Who are you talking to?

..whoever's listening

but mostly the guy who intentionally is trying to undermine the bible by constantly changing tactics

sorry.. if i post here again i won't do that again.. i have the avatars turned off but DO pay attention to names but so many people may as well be the same single person??.. especially the ones who poo-poo the bible in the same ways, they know a little about it and like to quote stuff but i used to be one of those people myself..

REPLY TO
ok, i can see why the reply-to button helps.. it's got that underscored line and bold text that grabs your attention.. i'll use it in future but for intents and purposes here if someone is interested in reading this, and maybe half-way curious about Jesus and the bible, they'll just read all that regardless and see who's trying to tell the truth and provide something to build on and who's trying to yank peoples chains

reply to post by UNIT76


Changing tactics? It's called going along with the flow of discussion.

All of my replies so far have pertained to the post I was replying to, it's not my fault you refuse to see what post I am replying to at a certain point. Maybe you should click on the green link and read the posts I am replying to?

reply to post by UNIT76


IF you read the thread I posted you'll also notice that everytime you hit the reply... the person you're replying to gets a message in the "messages" tab...

Good way to keep track of conversations, and who replies to you