IRS Buying Spying Equipment: Covert Cameras in Coffee Trays, Plants

here's some irony to ponder.....

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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

so you think an organization that recently admitted to the allegations of targeting specific groups in an attempt to prevent them from getting tax exempt status for political reasons will be using bugged coffee trays, clocks, and other surveillance equipment for nothing nefarious?

no, it's ok. i'm sure an internal investigation will sort these things out

reply to post by xuenchen


Really given the relatively small amount of equipment being bought here I would have to guess it is for internal surveillance. I don't see a reason for concern here in this particular case. It isn't like they need to hide cameras from people they bring down to their offices. You would be able to see those cameras on the wall. They are the freaking IRS when they come to see you, they know you are already nervous and likely to tell them what they want to hear. You don't use hidden cameras on people that are nervous about dealing with you. You use them on the people that are not i.e. employees.

reply to post by Bob Sholtz


I don't know what they will be using them for - what I am saying is that it should be no surprise that they use them in the first place - part of their job is evidence gathering and surveillance.

the fact that they did 1 or a dozen or a thousand illegal things does not make any legal operations they carry out any less legal.

If they do something illegal, with our without this particular equipment, then that needs to be dealt with appropriately.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

the fact that they did 1 or a dozen or a thousand illegal things does not make any legal operations they carry out any less legal.

perhaps it may not make the act illegal, but it destroys their authority.

an organization cannot say "we're sorry we committed illegal actions and violated your privacy and rights, oh, but you still owe us that money" and remain valid.

reply to post by Bob Sholtz


"2 wrongs don't make a right" springs to mind - just 'cos they act illegally in some cases doesn't mean you're allowed to, nor does it stop them enforcing laws legally in other circumstances.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

"2 wrongs don't make a right" springs to mind - just 'cos they act illegally in some cases doesn't mean you're allowed to, nor does it stop them enforcing laws legally in other circumstances.

this isn't about two wrongs, as paying taxes (or disputing how much should be paid) is hardly a moral issue, however the IRS not only acted illegally, but immorally.

the disconnect of enforcing laws on average citizens, yet letting truly criminal elements slide away and "retire" (with full benefits) completely negates their authority. you could argue as you are if it were a small, independent element performing these acts, but this scandal comes from the top. a full retirement package does not constitute justice, and because the IRS wishes to evade their just dues it negates their authority.

Spy on all the taxpayers!

Your taxes paid for the snoopy tools.

Please tell me these aren't the overpriced spy cameras one would get from a spy shop. The hundred dollar camera pen with a blinking blue light. The 500 dollar pocket camera with that buzzes when it's activated.

A coffee tray; that's something from an old movie. The big money crooks have already been prepared for this with their private security and detective teams, clean rooms, signal jammers and nonlinear junction detectors. So I guess these props go to sting rooms, and offices where defending lawyers with clients might be, or switch out regular trays for bugged ones, like some intelligence groups do with car radios.

And these things go missing, where celebrity videos and blackmail videos come from. What happened to just reding the books?

Originally posted by EViLKoNCEPTz
Seeing as how the quantities(QTY) are 2 - 4 it doesn't appear to be too wide spread. Probably to be used for in office loss prevention or something similar. They'd need a whole lot more than 2 or 4 cameras to spy on anything other than breakrooms and office supply storage. I ordered 24 cameras just for my own property and home, plus 2 dual channel receiving/recording units. So nothing in this story is even a real story just more of the same old doom porn and "the sky is falling" sensationalism.

edit on 6/10/2013 by EViLKoNCEPTz because: (no reason given)

appears they are bulk packs of 1000, so QTY 4 = 4,000

reply to post by WP4YT


Still nothing to get excited about. When they order 4 million then I might worry. The only places these will be used is inside IRS properties for their own internal security, loss prevention, monitoring for tampering and abuse, etc. There's maybe a .0001% chance these will be used to spy on anyone other than their own employees.

I don't think this is anything. Several offices I have worked in have had far more than what this is describing. This is less than a security department would need for an average office building.

If it is connected in any way, then it's potentially to try to stop some whistleblower from getting access to data without them having evidence of it. This sounds like the kind of kit you would put in the office to monitor staff, not the kind of thing you use to monitor the security of the building or guests.

Maybe someone in an IRS building security department has suddenly realized they have no security in a couple of important places where data is handled or stored, and they're fixing that problem.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


Even if this is the case, it seems like it is still an inappropriate allocation of public funds, considering law enforcement agencies have sufficiently documented peoples activity using traditional cameras and surveillance equipment. There would have to be an extraordinary set of circumstances which could justify the purchase of cameras in clocks and plants.

Also a question would arise as to where these cameras would be planted and under what authority?

reply to post by xuenchen


four of each..sounds like they will be spying on their employees....

Originally posted by SpeachM1litant
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

Even if this is the case, it seems like it is still an inappropriate allocation of public funds, considering law enforcement agencies have sufficiently documented peoples activity using traditional cameras and surveillance equipment.

People are inventive, they get new ways of doing stuff, so law enforcement also gets new ways of ding stuff.

Arguing that law enforcement should not use technological progress si a bit silly - since those "traditional cameras" were technological progress too.

There would have to be an extraordinary set of circumstances which could justify the purchase of cameras in clocks and plants.

Really? You think that getting pictures of someone at the scene of a suspected illegal activity is an "extraordinary set of circumstances"??

Also a question would arise as to where these cameras would be planted and under what authority?

There is no such question - the cameras will be planted where the IRS wants to plant them, using the authority of its enabling legislation.

And if they exceed that, as law enforcement authorities are known to do, then that needs to be dealt with appropriately.

Originally posted by EViLKoNCEPTz
reply to post by xuenchen

 

Doubtful. They don't buy 4 (FOUR) cameras for a test run. They would buy hundreds, hell even if they were buying hundreds I still wouldn't even raise an eyebrow. Retail stores have between 1 and 200 cameras per location, multiple locations and you're looking at hundreds to thousands of cameras just for retail theft. The IRS has locations in every state and multiples in most states, they'd need thousands of cameras just to cover their own property, they would need literally millions, I mean 10's to 100's of millions of cameras to put them in just medical offices alone. You might want to loosen the strap on your tinfoil hat, I think it's cutting the oxygen flow to your brain off. Four cameras is logistically insignificant, I have 4 cameras covering my front entrance alone. When they order a million or more I'll eat my hat and post the video on YouTube.

what I find absolutely hilarious, is that you imply that HE is paranoid, and accuse him of wearing a tin hat, then say that you have 4 cameras covering your front entrance...

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
reply to post by Bob Sholtz

 

I don't know where you got that from.

I suggested that it is not particularly odd that a law enforcement agency would be obtaining surveillance equipment, since part of their brief is to gather evidence.

You then expanded that to include various nefarious activities which I did not mention.

Please do not put words into my mouth.

wait, when did the IRS become a law enforcement agency? last time i checked, they had no police powers..

hmmmm, 16,000 new agents to accomodate Obamacare regulations and some 18,000 new monitoring devices ... yep, i see nefarious written all over this adventure.

hopefully, ppl will also read the Congressional Record where testimony from a prior director admits and specifically states paying federal income taxes is voluntary

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) is part of the IRS.

And i can see them (ATF)needing the spy equipment for there sting operations and anti gun crimes.("Fast and Furious")

Originally posted by ANNED
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) is part of the IRS.

And i can see them (ATF)needing the spy equipment for there sting operations and anti gun crimes.("Fast and Furious")

I think the ATF is part of the Dept of Justice

ATF.gov is an official site of the U.S. Department of Justice

the IRS is part of the Dept of the Treasury.

you may be thinking of The Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau

But the solicitation is from the IRS:
Solicitation Number: V-3-V0-02-ST-O15-000

Originally posted by ANNED
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) is part of the IRS.

And i can see them (ATF)needing the spy equipment for there sting operations and anti gun crimes.("Fast and Furious")

No, they're not part of the IRS...IRS is part of the Treasury Department, and ATF is part of the Justice Department...they're two separate, independent agencies, answerable to two completely different departments