It shouldn't matter if you aren't doing anything wrong

Nothing new. If you follow Alex Jones he's been saying this for years. Although Alex Jones can tend to be extreme, his story holds a lot of truth. Everything is monitored. From what I understand, they keep track of everything we all do and create a profile of us. For example, monitoring what we post on websites to see if we exhibit extreme behavior so they can profile us and label if we are going to be a potential threat. It's not hard because they can just search keywords through a database and basically find any words or phrases to trigger an investigation. Wether it's email, texting, phone calls, everything is monitored. The safest way to send a message is literally to send mail nowadays lol. Funny but true. What's funny is that they're monitoring online video games too. An online friend was telling me how they were trying to recruit him because he was top tier in this flying video game. Online gaming chat use to be unmonitored unti they found out that drug cartels and t e r ---roist (intentional misspelling) were using it. Anywho, I hope freedom and democracy come back

Originally posted by Beartracker16
I know they cannot have enough people to monitor all traffic on the web, that would end unemployment everywhere.
So, they must have computers programmed to flag key words and phrases for later examination by real people to determine if action is desirable. If people started adding some of these key words and phrases in everything they post, Aliens control the CIA, it could overwhelm their monitoring systems and render then potentially useless.

I have a better solution and it's something I personally practice. I bought my laptop in cash as well as my wireless card in my desktop computer. There is no sales database tracing me to it's MAC address. I pay for internet access and leave it open to anyone who wishes to use it. When I go online I use someone elses connection (sometimes open, usually I have to find my own way in though). Anything traced to me is worthless as it's actually a mishmash of data from several different people. Anything I do, is incorrectly attributed to someone else.

If even 1 person in 10 did this (especially the part about unsecured wifi for everyone to use), the entire internet surveillance system breaks as each IP address becomes tied to large numbers of people.

Fox News is reporting that the President wants to know who leaked the story about the NSA spying on everyone.

Instead of focusing on what his apologists want to blame on Bush, the President has started a manhunt for the person that is responsible for blowing the whistle on him!

Fox News

Originally posted by TheBlackHat
All im saying is its old news

You're missing the part where there was no evidence before, and now there is. This means that instead of you telling someone who isn't a member of ATS about it and then rolling their eyes, they will now nod and say you were right all along - and wonder what else you might be right about.

Lawyers cannot take action based on a theory, they need evidence. There are several civil rights lawyers with cases against the federal government right now, and they have been speaking up about this and saying that this now gives them more power to go back to court and show that the government consistently lied to the people, the government has been illegal monitoring and collecting data, that private corporations have colluded...

Originally posted by TheBlackHat
secondly im not that bothered personally as I dont live in the states

The US has been spying on people all over the world.
In fact, if our governments were actually working for the people who elect them, the USA and UK SHOULD be in a state of cold war right now.
The USA has been caught spying on UK citizens, and the UK has been spying on US citizens. It makes little difference if that spying was done for the other party - if our governments were actually in office for the people our countries would right now be at war.

Originally posted by TheBlackHat
Hitler went after Jews and anyone who had a big nose

Hitler also murdered journalists, locked up reporters, hunted down gay people, killed professors and other educators, and imprisoned millions of people for all kinds of things. They were not just people he hated, they were people who OPPOSED THE STATE.

Originally posted by TheBlackHat
This "leak" is BS, they leaked it for a reason

Do you have any proof of that? Because the leaking of this is itself a national security issue, and it puts a lot of people in some very deep doo doo. Not least of which the hypocrite in your (supposedly) highest office. There are thousands of people in government right now pooping their pants over this, because they are implicated in some way, are involved in the programs being leaked, gave authorization for things they didn't even read or directly broke the law, the constitution and the trust of the people who pay their wages.

I'll need more than just someone who is suspicious about everything to prove to me that this leak was "for a reason" other than someone wanting to expose just how out of bounds their government has become.

Originally posted by TheBlackHat
This surveillance was public knowledge from day one

No it wasn't, hence the concept of a "leak".
You might have been suspicious, and others here might have used common sense to come to the logical conclusion that everything is being monitored, but that's a far cry from seeing ACTUAL EVIDENCE!

Journalists do not create stories from what someone on a conspiracy forum fears is going on, they create stories from actual facts and genuine evidence.

Originally posted by TheBlackHat
The population is in a no win situation with this..they wont win in a fight

I would say it's going to be hard, but it is possible. Here's a good way to start...

1. Free Bradley Manning and send a message that whistle-blowers are not going to be prosecuted for acting in the INTERESTS OF THEIR PEOPLE. People need to know that they can leak this kind of thing without facing secret courts and a life sentence.

2. Fire every single elected person who knew about this program.

3. End the two party system.

4. End corporate personhood.

5. Create a "Transparency Committee" with members from each state (not elected, but randomly picked and then approved by the people) and every year they are paid by the people for several months, going absolutely wherever they want to go. They are held to the same laws of secrecy as government employees, but like a jury they can make a judgment on whether something is right and proper, or should be blown wide open for the people to see.

The biggest problem here is that the USA is not run by your elected government. They have no freakin' clue what's going on in a secret facility in Utah, or in Area 51, and neither does your president. So WHO DOES? Why is there a group of unelected, unseen, unknown people in positions of extreme power behind your government, how did they get there, who are they, how are any of them held to account, and why is no one asking?

The most powerful people in the USA are not your elected, and it's certainly not the president. The most powerful people in the USA are the ones in control of the NSA, CIA, FBI, and the ones who have been able to tap and monitor the communications of every elected politician of the last twenty years without needing to bug their office or hotel room.

reply to post by Rocker2013


en.wikipedia.org...

Thats the listening dome operated by or on behalf of the NSA in England, it has been public knowledge for atleast 10 years...that the NSA are listening into the public's phone calls and emails etc...and thats in the UK, where people should be even more angry as the UK is a sovereign state (or was supposed to be) and what the hell is the NSA doing here listening to our communications????? Oh yeah thats right..the war on terror...well if you put it to the vote, most people would rather we had our privacy back..but they wouldn't put that to a vote and even if they did, in order to passify people, they would still spy on us all regardless, except it would be "top secret"...Get it, its been going on for years and as I said at least the American people can feel some false sense of democracy, by voting out Obama, and voting in the next clone..(whatever political party or BS ideology he/she/black/white/latino/gay that they supposedly represent) Except the listening dome was around since Bush and during Obama and will be here for decades into the future no matter who your so called elected president or our supposedly elected prim minister is...

I would like to agree with you, that we can change this set up, this stinking corrupt set up, but we cant...and if you even dare suggest we can, especially online, they will use that against you too...

The Guardian is the paper who likes to break these stories, and who broke the whole wikileaks stuff in the beginning, its known as a left of center newspaper in the UK...There is no equivalent paper in the USA, as far as I know...Thats why the Guardian now has a US version and now an Australian version on its website...They are filling the gap in the US by offering up something a bit more of a leftist world view...It doesn't mean the Guardian is not part of the mainstream though, it is, and it is owned by the establishment, just like all newspapers. I used to buy the Guardian back in the day, but came to see it was really part of the problem, conditioning people to a leftist and politically correct mindset, in some ways that's as bad as the right wing media..although nothing is as bad as FOX and the Murdoch empire of blatant bigotry.

The good thing about having a left and right wing media in the uk, is that people get a balanced opinion about things..where as in the states you get one version of events and you either take it or leave it..Having said all that, like I say it makes no difference to how things are run...it matters not how many people are angry right now, this will die down and everything goes back to business as usual, like the banksters still getting their bonuses...Like I said our society is an apathetic joke...the whole frame works that supports a two party police state, is made from titanium and it so entrenched in civilization that there is no way to safely dismantle it..and anyhow what do you replace these 455h0les with? because the nature of wanting to have power over a population always leads to 455h0les in leadership positions, because only huge psychotic 455h0les want to "rule" over populations.

look through history at how many psychopaths have ruled countries...its not just Hitler or Stalin or Genghis Khan...its most of the rest in between, to a lesser extent but still psychopaths. I mean right now were told Assad is the psychopath...but what kind of person secretly spies on everyone and detains people indefinably without trial? They are all the same. Its the nature of power, it attracts psychopaths. To be honest I never thought id say this but having a monarchy would probably be a better idea, as they are born into the position so you at least get a shot at having a fair leader, where as if you rely on allowing the guy with the most ambission to reach the top, you can guarantee, he /she did whatever it took to get there..and I do mean whatever it took.

I Agree 10000% with you on everything said , the why fear if you dont do nothing bad line does not apply , it never did apply , we are slowly being boxed in when it comes to certain beliefs and the right to ask questions.

We are slowly being banned every right to question or to find our own truths , because the goverments around the world ( our western) bend the path into a direction they are pleased with , not us.

The Why fear if you do nothing bad line does not apply because even the most anti government activists who are Peacefull protestors who try solving things through talks and politics are labelled targets , just a number on a list , and its not a Santa gift list , its a to do list , they will be destroyed , killed or their careers being flushed down the drain.

This week i have read about the PRISM system , because i am a non US citizen this has big applications on me.
Because no doubt with all the ATS visitations and other Alternative material i study i will be on their list.

And this sucks , they dont understand that this for me personally has nothing to do with inflicting violence on indivduals from a different country , for me doing all this digging is about expanding my wisdom and to try and see things from a more wide out of the box thinkin perspective.

Again Violence or Radicalisation has NOTHING do do with it for most of us Free thinkers dear US government.

I understand Countries need to be protected , but at what costs ?

TheGreazel

reply to post by TheGreazel

Dont worry about it...if your on a list..so is at least a couple of hundred million other people...there isnt enough prisons to house the current prison population...so what they gonna do, exterminate millions and millions of people who have "opinions"..Well its been done before hahaha.

But what has history taught us? when people tell me "we learn history so that we learn not to repeat it"..I always thought we learned history so we can refine our methods...and if you look at how things really operate that's exactly what TPTB use history lessons for. Like I said at least this spying is not even a secret...people voluntarily use the internet, Facebook, knowing its a bad idea..I mean that's an improvement as far as TPTB are concerned, because they can now say we told you in the small print, you agreed to this spying...all the info gathered by the USA has been handed over voluntarily by the people...I mean have you ever read those user agreements when you download things or sign up to use Microsoft windows or Google etc....of course not..and they make sure those agreements are so long and full of legal jargon, so that 99.99999 % of people wont bother reading them and if you do read them and understand them you think, cr4p. i already paid for this or if i dont click the box and agree i cant use the internet.....I mean nobody ever hands you a legal document pages long in order to protect your interests hahaha.

reply to post by DeadSeraph

I've heard similar sentiments parroted here on ATS. The idea that we shouldn't be bothered by infringements on our civil liberties if we aren't doing anything wrong.

We've already been here a done that... as in, if you are a loyal subject of the King, you shouldn't mind quartering his soldiers in your home.

reply to post by Bluesma


I disagree with your premise... Your apathetic "Im not a criminal so nuthin to hide, & never expected privacy in the first place" stance, & your analogy of living in a town being akin to this subject. What, do you think this is just a big 'ol community? The whole internet? The problem with your statement is that there is no pavement & ground tech used throughout the city limits which records every movement, by whom, to where, for what & how long, on a regular basis?, spending how much on what, looking at what, reading what, agreeing or disagreeing with what, planning future anything, who goes "with" you (like matching up familymembers/friends/"known associates/coconspirators) who said what, etc., & then makes available this aggregate (COLLECTED BY THE COMPANIESTHEMSELVES! Are they getting paid somehow?)...then makes this datamine available to the mayor, city council, & moneymen. It's everything youve ever done in your "town" recorded.
It's like filing your taxes, but it's "filing your 'doings thatwere done via modern technology'(web)", only you dont have to file anything because the government does it for you. And it does not add in to a greater good like taxes, arguably.
This is nothing like expecting privacy in your town or wherever by default as the nature of moments is they dont last. On the internet it seems one's "past" is just part of the Now data, it's not past. It's record.

Originally posted by Aazadan

Originally posted by Beartracker16
I know they cannot have enough people to monitor all traffic on the web, that would end unemployment everywhere.
So, they must have computers programmed to flag key words and phrases for later examination by real people to determine if action is desirable. If people started adding some of these key words and phrases in everything they post, Aliens control the CIA, it could overwhelm their monitoring systems and render then potentially useless.

I have a better solution and it's something I personally practice. I bought my laptop in cash as well as my wireless card in my desktop computer. There is no sales database tracing me to it's MAC address. I pay for internet access and leave it open to anyone who wishes to use it. When I go online I use someone elses connection (sometimes open, usually I have to find my own way in though). Anything traced to me is worthless as it's actually a mishmash of data from several different people. Anything I do, is incorrectly attributed to someone else.

If even 1 person in 10 did this (especially the part about unsecured wifi for everyone to use), the entire internet surveillance system breaks as each IP address becomes tied to large numbers of people.

edit on 9-6-2013 by Aazadan because: (no reason given)

Yes, that'll work for now.

But later, and not that much later I'll add, there will be a whole new player in the game of surveillance.

It's called RFID (for human implant)

reply to post by ButterCookie


The chip will be fazed in..just like everything else..like facebook..giving away your image and identity and personal data because its the "popular" thing to do.....and it will be done in plain sight..just like everything else. Somehow they will promote this chip and either make you fearful not to get it or make it some popular fad..or my guess is they will force you to get an implant in order to enter or leave the country as a passport.

i mean you have to get fingerprinted and retina scanned as it is to travel...oh and full body scans...see, nobody really kicked up a real stink about any of that, so the logical next step is to implant everyone...and nobody will stop it...just dumb acceptance..as per usual.

If the population is dumber than dumb now, imagine what the next generation will be like...

Originally posted by TheBlackHat
reply to post by ButterCookie

 

The chip will be fazed in..just like everything else..like facebook..giving away your image and identity and personal data because its the "popular" thing to do.....and it will be done in plain sight..just like everything else. Somehow they will promote this chip and either make you fearful not to get it or make is some popular fad..or my guess is they will force you to get an implant in order to enter or leave the country as a passport.

i mean you have to get fingerprinted and retina scanned as it is to travel...oh and full body scans...see, nobody really kicked up a real stink about any of that, so the logical next step is to implant everyone...and nobody will stop it...just dumb acceptance..as per usual.

Oh I agree that this will not be widely resisted. Look at how we line up for days at the Apple store to get the newest gadget..

I actually don't have a problem with the RFID for human implant. Here's how I look at this:

Merging with the machine is inevitably part of human evolution. This merger is a biological upgrade; humans already have the strong desire to be 'updated' constantly every second of everyday.

Look at how we literally go to sleep with our phones, check them almost every 10 minutes, and freak out if we have left the house and discover that we have left it behind.

This will be excellence in convenience...no more searching for driver's license, medical card, or SSN card.

Jump a little further into the future and we will have the Brain Chip. The ultimate man/machine merger.

Information is no longer 'learned'. it is downloaded.

"The Cyborg"

Originally posted by darkbake
reply to post by Taggart

 

I would just like to add my two cents: if you are doing anything right, you are likely to be targeted. Also, totally bad plan for national security to completely gut the Constitution. Talk about losing your credibility.

edit on 8-6-2013 by darkbake because: (no reason given)

I don't know why you replied to me, I'm English and none of your points relate to mine at all.

Originally posted by ButterCookie
I actually don't have a problem with the RFID for human implant. Here's how I look at this:

Merging with the machine is inevitably part of human evolution. This merger is a biological upgrade; humans already have the strong desire to be 'updated' constantly every second of everyday.

Look at how we literally go to sleep with our phones, check them almost every 10 minutes, and freak out if we have left the house and discover that we have left it behind.

Most people can't handle multi-tasking as it is, and they are always jumping to conclusions and have a tendency to take things personnally, getting all upset over the most trivial of matters

This will be excellence in convenience...no more searching for driver's license, medical card, or SSN card.

Jump a little further into the future and we will have the Brain Chip. The ultimate man/machine merger.

Information is no longer 'learned'. it is downloaded.

It won't be "learned" It would be programming. Such as; You like that job you have producing widgets at minimum wage and have no need to expand your mind. Big Brother say...all is well.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


I totally agree with you Death,I'm sure our forefathers are just rolling in they're grave right now about this.How many people died trying to give us these rights that we just shrug and say "oh well"?And this nonsense that I keep hearing that "I don't do anything wrong so I have nothing to worry about".Really? Have you ever heard a lawyer or about a lawyer telling they're client, "don't get on the stand,the prosecutor will twist your words and get you so upset he'll MAKE you look guilty"?And what about miranda?ANYTHING you say can and WILL be used against you?If these people are foolish enough to think that the gov. will leave them alone just because 'they aren't doing anything wrong'.....guess again.
If the Gov. even THINKS you might be a problem for them,they would gladly lock you and I up to get rid of us.With the way our rights have been trampled on now,they can do so with no charges filed,hold us indefinitely,and not answer to anyone about it.Can you imagine your loved ones wondering what happened to you and not being able to get an answer from the gov.?They wouldn't know if it was foul play or you were locked up.I have said this before and I'll say it again,I'm glad my parents are dead so they don't have to see whats become of this country.I fear that only by fighting back will we ever be able to change things.

I been thinking about this topic as well...

I post something a couple times a week on facebook pointing out our rapid slide towards totalitarianism, I NEVER get even one response. I think that those who are paying attention are scared to be harassed by the IRS, or the secret service, or the DHS. Which is just plain chicken # if you ask me. There are things that gnaw on a man, living in fear, hiding in the face of adversity, turning away while your country and your future is stolen from you are, or at least should be, among them.

I am not advocating violence unless violence is brought to bear against us. But my God at least open your mouth! Speak up! Tell your sleeping friends! Write and call any government representative that you can get the name or number of and let them know that we are paying attention. There may still be hope.

The others, those not awake, well, they just aren't paying attention. No need to comment on that.

Originally posted by halfoldman
I wonder if that argument cuts both ways.

Surely if government is doing nothing wrong they would let everyone read all their mail and film their offices, and they wouldn't have a major punitive freak out over Wikileaks?

So how about it?

Brilliant! Sorry for the short post, but you are too right!

reply to post by redoubt


I don't usually bounce off my own comment but as time as passed, I felt the need to detail a bit without over-editing myself.

Back to the beginning:

The idea that we shouldn't be bothered by infringements on our civil liberties if we aren't doing anything wrong.

One observation (my own):
"We've already been here a done that... as in, if you are a loyal subject of the King, you shouldn't mind quartering his soldiers in your home."

Now... the umbilical between these two might get lost. Like... how does being spied on in the digital age overlay with having British Redcoats living in your colonialist kitchen?

It's a worthy question.

The whole thing is to take the weight of an action that is wrong to begin with, and shift the blame from the violator to the violated.
Example:
King George III had nothing to apologize for and if you complained, you were not a loyal subject.
Today, if you are a good citizen and have nothing to hide, why should you mind Obama and the NSA sniffing your digital bedsheets?

So, instead of what is wrong to begin with being sized up as what it is, the blame is purposely shifted to the innocent victim. It's the same as blaming victims of rape for being raped.

Having nothing to hide? Let us ransack your privacy? If you complain, it could be a confession of some hidden guilt.

Okee dokee... that's my dime.

Originally posted by DeadSeraph


How does the fact people can see you when you go out in public have any bearing what so ever on this discussion?

Because the topic is PRIVACY. The less you are interactive with other peoples in a community, the more privacy you have. That has always been true. You can choose to either have your life interwoven with the collective, or not.

-But you are free to "feel sorry" for me and insult me and all that, if it gives you pleasure. I don't care. I think my point was pretty clear.

Originally posted by kkrattiger
reply to post by Bluesma

 

I disagree with your premise... Your apathetic "Im not a criminal so nuthin to hide, & never expected privacy in the first place" stance, & your analogy of living in a town being akin to this subject. What, do you think this is just a big 'ol community? The whole internet? The problem with your statement is that there is no pavement & ground tech used throughout the city limits which records every movement, by whom, to where, for what & how long, on a regular basis?, ...

I can only guess you have never lived in a small village. There are people who sit on their porch and watch all movements going on by community members- one couple here had a notebook for keeping track. Everyone knows if you missed your bowel movement in the morning, or if you failed to provoke an orgasm for your wife that night, or what you said at that banquet and to whom.

But like I said to the other person, if it really bothers you for some reason, pull out!
You have a choice.

If your insults and calling me pathetic and all were such a big worry for me, I would not post on public message boards, right? Recognizing I have a choice is useful to keep in mind.