Was Jesus Christ just a man? Aetheists vs. Christians, Battle Royale

reply to post by Spawn2001


good topic.
Jesus Christ was a middle eastern man living in what is now isreal Lebanon area. he was the son of a carpenter
since he was Jewish, he more than likely expected to live the Jewish way, observe the rules and ceremonies of the religion.he would have married early and raised a family.the religion is fixed on how you conducted your life in Judaism. as for his growing up he more than likely had some kind of schooling and the rabbis had an influence on his life and upbringing.
as for him being a real person, the only reference that has ever been published in any way was by Josephus and that was vague in details. no other place but the bible and Josephus is he ever mentioned anywhere not even the roman records mention him.
when the first Christians came to being...and there were many groups claiming the right to worship Jesus.... there were many groups have the same loose dogma concerning Christianity. they borrowed from the torah and filled the rest in with what their perception was.
after awhile the various groups leaders and holy men met and hammered out a mutual same story to explain the holiness of Christ and serve and worship the same. others did not and were forgotten to history.
the early torah is not much different from what is printed now. the early Christians added Christ later as a selling point for their point of view.
the middle ages brought Christ as a savior from everything in life to the Catholics. he was pure and unmarried, and the early cardinals shredded Christs early christian image and replaced it with one of their own. he was unmarried and the son of god.....to holy for ordinary people. this is the total opposite of how Jesus would have lived in his time.they cleaned up the scandal that the early Christians built around him and made him pure of heart and clean in gods image of man, and made him the focus of god. the god incidentally, was Jehovah...the Jewish god.

He can't be a man or a prophet regardless, because he never existed.

hi there jesus was just a ordinary black man (the best conspiracy theorist of his days)... and all that religion b####it was just made around him long time after he pass a way... all open ayes people know why

Originally posted by Gazrok
reply to post by interupt42

 

I'm agnostic simply because like I said before, Science nor myself can explain how the first of anything came from nothing?

I always find this idea of "beginning" and "end" rather amusing. From all we have observed, the universe works more in repeating cycles, not beginning and end.

Incorrect.

Recent cosmological observations have shown that the expansion of the universe is accelerating, indicating that the universe is not cyclical, and it will not collapse back into a singularity. It had a discrete (though unknown) beginning and will have a discrete end.

A thread of mine from last year on the subject: A Prediction you can bank on: It's the End of the Universe As We Know It…

There is one particular problem that many people 'on both sides of the fence' often fail to realize: Atheism is not a belief.

Nowadays, the term 'Atheism' is viewed far differently from it's original meaning. Personally, I believe in neither God nor Atheism.

It is quite ridiculous for anyone who claims to be an Atheist to want to spread their beliefs, and/or try to prove to others that their religious beliefs are wrong, and that their God does not exist.









I may not believe in God, but that doesn't mean that I think this World would be a better place if there were no religion. I do think that things would be better if everyone could learn to accept responsibility for their own flaws, actions, bad decisions, etc.... instead of blaming otherworldly spirits. Sadly however, since most people are incapable of doing so, religion may be a necessity.


I have no problems accepting the possibility that someone else might stop and think twice, before deciding not to do something 'wrong', simply because they think there is some sort of almighty force keeping track of each and every move they make.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


I've always been curious, are we required to be physically baptized in order to be truly saved?

Or is accepting him as your savior and doing your best to live in a righteous way enough?

so true if he existed at all it would have reverberated around the world more resoundingly than he has up to date....there would be records of his exploits everywhere.but there isn't. and he would have put down on paper what he believed in as well.we have books from 300 years after his accepted death and that is it. however we have no books from the original authors to back it up.....just the European versions that have also been shredded over the ages to reflect the dogma of the particular age. the dead sea scrolls do back up a little of the bible...but nothing on him that i have seen.they are unrecognizable from today's version of the gospel.

Just popped in to say "hi" to everyone! Hi everyone

Interesting reading so far. If he existed at all, Jesus was a man who studied mysticism and was able to persuade others that they could be like him if they worked at it.

People today who have become mysticists and 'masters' of Eastern thought have shown that the body can be commanded to do things by the mind....
The comic-book analogy is, in my opinion, the best entry so far. He became a super-hero like King Arthur did (another good analogy stated earlier).

We are all connected - each of us has a spark of the 'one reality' - some 'sparks' are 'older, more advanced souls', here to teach. They come around from time to time - I don't rule out the possibility that the same 'essence' lived in all of them, appealing to the local populace. Even the scriptures say Elijah was John the Baptist.

Eventually we'll all be reunited into the 'source' again. The universe is inexplicable - it cannot be assumed to be the ONLY universe. String theory is as reasonable an explanation as any - and NO explanation so far can be said to be "true".

We just don't know. All we know is that we can't really KNOW in the way we like to 'know' things.
We know that we can't see or hear things that other species can see and hear. We know we can't breath water and survive. We know that fire burns us. We're learning a lot, and it's exciting....and that's just where we are now. We don't know everything. And we know it.

The thing i have always wondered... Why were the books for the bible written so long after the death of Jesus?
Every book in the NT was supposedly written 20-60 years after Jesus' death. Why wait?

Also, when Jesus was supposedly resurrected, didn't a bunch of dead people get resurrected as well? were they all gods as well?

DC

Could it be?

The following is my opinion (of course):

Was Jesus a person to begin with? Well, there is enough evidence (outside of the bible) to suggest there was a guy named (forgot) whom fits the bill in regards to monotheistic preaching, Jerusalem disrupting, preaching the equality of god and sort of raging against the machine that went back and forth between Hebrew and Roman law to finally be executed by Rome (through the wishes of the Hebrews).

So sure..he was a man.

Was he magical?
No evidence to speak of outside of biblical accounts..and since the bible has a sort of agenda, I dismiss that overall when considering facts.

But, even if he was, it is relevant? If you see someone do things magical, that doesn't automatically make them a deity..there is a whole host of answers, from time travel, alien, hidden society science, illusions, etc...

I don't know is the answer for the anything outside of a man, and since I don't know, and no evidence (outside of the bible which is not evidence), then I won't spend time in any deep belief for a objective truth to come forward.

Hense I am an atheist...I don't believe..not that I can't believe, or that I don't want to..I just don't based on no evidence.

Do I hope/wish? maybe...sounds like a cool idea. I like the thought of a supernatural person coming here to help out..always a sucker for such stories, be it superman, jesus, etc...but my inner desire has little to do with objective reality.

_____________
TL/DR version:
More than man? maybe, but show me some proof

reply to post by MadMax7

A real Atheist would ignore the argument because it is irrelevant.

I spent decades of my life devoutly believing and living the fairy tale of Christianity. I don't ignore the argument because I know what it is, and the detriment it has been to civilization. If I can help even one soul question that fairy tale, and come out of it, it will have been worth the argument.

But Atheists who doubt inside that their belief is correct and fear what could be the truth will try to disprove Christianity or God or whatever to make them 'feel' better about their decision.

I'm an atheist, and I have no doubts or fear whatsoever that I have made the right decision. Nor do I need to disprove your beliefs to make myself feel better. The bible disproves itself, no help needed. All that is needed is to read it with a fresh set of eyes.

So any Atheists commenting here in a way that they are desperate to 'disprove' God are not true Atheists but ones like described above.

You sound desperate to get them to shut up. Maybe you aren't a true Christian, if it bothers you so much.

Originally posted by ronthealien
as for him being a real person, the only reference that has ever been published in any way was by Josephus and that was vague in details. no other place but the bible and Josephus is he ever mentioned anywhere not even the roman records mention him.

No, there are accounts of him from Gaius Tacitus.
Source Wiki

I think its safe to say that odds are he was a man. If he existed at all.

reply to post by adjensen

Recent cosmological observations have shown that the expansion of the universe is accelerating, indicating that the universe is not cyclical, and it will not collapse back into a singularity. It had a discrete (though unknown) beginning and will have a discrete end.

In other words, our new guess is different from our old guess? Yes, I'm aware of this, but simply put, it isn't "incorrect" as we simply don't know. In a few hundred billion years, look me up and we can settle it. Until then, your guess is as good as mine.

Everything we've observed, from galaxies and stars forming, etc. is cyclical in nature. Even with an accelerating universe, it doesn't mean the "cosmic crunch" idea is dead in the water. It just means it may be further in the future. Some force has to be responsible for the acceleration (be it dark matter, whatever), so who knows what happens as matter approaches this source? Simply put, we're simply guessing (educated guesses, but guesses nonetheless) at the nature of it all. Nothing is "correct" or "incorrect"....just "unknown".

For example, when matter is pulled together by a force, it tends to accumulate together. So, what if once all the matter in the universe reaches this outer attractive force, and then forms an accretion "shell" that then, eventually collapses back in on itself (cosmic crunch) to another infinitesimal singularity that then expands into another Big Bang and universe? We simply don't know.

reply to post by Spawn2001


I think this battle is old and worn out.

Are people SERIOUSLY so mentally handicapped that they can't consider that both sides are over exaggerated and wrong? Between religion and atheism, I mean.

Atheism is to imply that we are all, and what's here is all there is.

Religions refer to God (or Gods) as all powerful beings, above and in rule of us.

But no one considers that, like with every topic of controversy, maybe the truth lies somewhere in between.

Who's to say evolution AND a higher power aren't both possible?

If a higher power existed, as I personally believe, wouldn't the complexity of science and logic be a bit more sensible? I mean, theories like natural selection, along with the human body's amazing abilities, they all just HAPPEN to function a certain way--in a way that promotes life, growth, and the fulfillment of a species as a whole. And while all these functions are complex and scientific, they all work towards the preservation of life, and, if a higher power existed, that is how it would create all life.

Religious people have a tendency of using their belief in God as an excuse not to think logically, and atheists seem to do the reverse; use basic logic to attempt to disprove God (although no one has, or CAN, disprove God, they have only succeeded in arising unique questions that many of them claim disproves God, when in reality it only questions God's creations, intentions, purpose, personality, and divinity).

For those of you who make the argument that the Bible contradicts itself and makes no sense, consider this; the Bible was written hundreds of years ago, and translated from a language/languages that are/were NOTHING LIKE English. And, it has been edited and re-translated by very many people, and into very many versions.

It has gone through a lot of red tape. It is very likely to be corrupted, even excluding the possibility of a horrible conspiracy behind the purpose of religions like Christianity.

That does NOT disprove the possibility of God.

That only means religion is a tool, used to control the masses.

That is man's work. Not God.

Just as money is a tool, and can be misused. People like you and I use money to pay bills, purchase food, and buy things for our loved ones on their birthdays and Christmas... that is a GOOD use of money.

The government's use of money is a BAD use of money.

Guns are tools as well.

Someone defending their home from a robber with a gun to protect their loved ones is a GOOD use of the gun.

The government's oppression--or a psycho shooting up a school--would be a BAD use of the gun.

Don't think humanity won't use faith to the most evil extent of its potential as well.

Faith is a tool.

It can heal a man more than any treatment in any hospital.

But, when faith is packaged and distributed in monstrous religions that teach, mold, and indoctrinate their people, faith becomes a wicked tool, used to manufacture an army of citizens that act, think, and speak in whatever way the tool's creator intended.

Its a commonly abused psychological tool.

It spawns a complex problem, too... because when one abandons faith, they become a shell of a human. But when one embraces it, they open themselves to whatever in their environment has the potential to brainwash them.

This argument is a touchy, sensitive one that provokes so many of you, who have made the mistake of choosing one side or another.

NEVER choose a side that someone else has put in front of you.

Religion, atheism, liberalism, conservatism, democratic, republican, ALL are titles created by someone else, and out of laziness, so many of you chose one or more of these titles, then molded yourself into it like attempting to squeeze into an outfit that doesn't fit you. Now, you're all bickering and ankle-biting.

Choosing a side IS choosing the losing side.

Start thinking profoundly, critically, and choose your OWN side.

Originally posted by Gazrok
reply to post by interupt42

 

I'm agnostic simply because like I said before, Science nor myself can explain how the first of anything came from nothing?

I always find this idea of "beginning" and "end" rather amusing. From all we have observed, the universe works more in repeating cycles, not beginning and end. So, I see no reason we had to "come" from anything. For all we know, even the Big Bang was simply the start of a new cycle. We could be in the "first" universe, or the 583rd for all we know, or even no number, since it has always been and always will be, like driving in a circle. No start, no end, just relative to the observer.

I find "certainty" equally amusing when discussing how it all started (not just the big bang). Note I don't discount the cycle theory and it makes sense as well but what came before the cycle?

Does a cycle just start. does it require no reaction or interaction, does it come from nothing, magic?

reply to post by Spawn2001


I believe (believe) that Jesus of Nazereth was just a normal everyday sinner like the rest of us. Keep reading...

I also believe, having become so passionate about his own beliefs, he trancended spiritually and was in fact able to perform "miracles".

People started calling him the son of God...and he indulged, and became a major part of God's plan.

Most of his apostles performed many miracles and so have many others throughout the ages. Some of them are recognized by the catholic church as "saint", though I also believe there have been a whole lot more.that the catholic church never knew about.

Jesus Christ should be viewed as...

...the thing we must evolve into. If more and more people begin to live christ-like then Jesus has.in fact become their "savior".

Only faith can sustain us.

Hello, I started this thread. I lack the history lesson of that era and most of Christ s teachings. I am a growing number of more and more people growing up without the church. I listened to a lot of rebellious music growing up, and I had and still have no religion to call my own. Anywhere else I couldn't talk about this, the people in the real world. My family has there own beliefs. I am agnostic because of my family, and keep my mind open to consider things.

My mother died in Nov. early in the morning one day. At the hospital after she died they let us family members see the body. When I was alone with her I said " I will see you again" . And I can understand why he did it, Jesus . Why his works were so important and be willing to die over.

I was always distant from church or felt distant when it was brought up. Like I didn't get it. I try to just live my life and not bring up questions like " why are we here" . Or " why is anything here" .

Jesus of Nazareth was a man who stood against corruption and religion. They killed him and made him the poster boy for corrupt religions. Very ironic. He never wanted any part of it. It must suck to be a Christian.