Is the Two State Soltution dead?

Originally posted by SilentKoala
Or, everyone can just get along and live in peace and accept eachother's religious differences without anyone pushing anyone.

Well that would be great but unfortunetly I don't see it happening and I don't like to speculate about peace when the entire region is about to go Ka-poof. I go back to the source of the problem which starts at around 1948.. And when I come to my conclusion, Israel deserve to be pushed right back to where they came from. Not because I hate Jews, but because the leaders of that rogue nation are hell bent on F**king everything in that part of the world.

Originally posted by bodrul

Originally posted by Hopechest

You haven't misproven anything I've said. Of course the Israelites were nomads also, I never said anything to the contrary but they were smart enough to align themselves with the power players in the world whereas the Palestinians were not.

Instead of asking yourself about silly UN rules you should be asking why the Arab community turned its back on Palestine during the two large jewish immigration pushes. It was at this point that the Palestinians should have begun fighting back instead of relying on some parliamentary governing body to decide their fate.

what is done is done
Israel holds the land for military purpose and has an axed them on the grounds of defense
hence the UN laws which surround and regulate what actions Israel can and cant do.

The war is Long over.

for you Silly UN rules to the rest of us these are principles all countries signed to should be following and sticking to, you cant pick and choose what laws you like and what you don't.

this is not the medieval era but the modern era.

you can stick to your medieval preaching
while the rest of us stay in the modern period

As far as the UN is concerned, yes you can.

The US picks and chooses all the times which rules they want to follow. Whether you agree or not, Israel exists because we want it to. Its our only solid base from which to operate in the Middle East and of vital strategic importance. The conflict with the Palestinians does not matter when it comes to America's national security interests.

Those are not my views per se, they are just an acknowledgement of the realist view that America's foreign policy has almost always operated under. Had the Palestinians been more accommodating of US needs, and Britains for that matter, they may very well have the land and the Jewish people may be in Ethiopia, which actually a few of their negotiaters wanted in the first place.

Originally posted by undertheraydar
reply to post by bodrul

 

I think it has been for some time now. Israel continues the blockade and to build settlements in disputed areas while the other side continues the terrorist attacks and both are aided by many different countries in the form of "aid". I don't agree with the opression from the Israel side or the terroist antics of the Palestine side. I think both should sit down have a few beers and a few hookas and get along. And the US don't need to be present period. We don't live there so why intervene?

ones mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, not condoning attacks on civilians
you have to remember the United states is Israels prime supplier of Weapons, Money and diplomatic support at the UN (the UN vetos)

hence why the US will always have the largest influence on the peace between the two

Israel wont stop its settlement activity and the Palestinians wont sit down unless they do which the Palestinians are right to do so as mentioned before as it erodes any chance of two state solution (the settlements)

reply to post by DarknStormy


Well I look at it this way. We didn't exit the dark ages by adopting another fundamentalism that opposed the fundamentalism that existed. We exited the dark ages by adopting reason and scientific enlightenment.

What I am trying to say is you can't fight barbarian force through more barbarian force. Sure, Judaism is a wacky, backward religion, but do you think the political climate will improve if another wacky, backward religious group ships them all away and takes over? I think a greater good can be done by educating both parties to see the folly of living according to ancient nomadic texts and encourage rational thinking.

Originally posted by Hopechest

As far as the UN is concerned, yes you can.

The US picks and chooses all the times which rules they want to follow. Whether you agree or not, Israel exists because we want it to. Its our only solid base from which to operate in the Middle East and of vital strategic importance. The conflict with the Palestinians does not matter when it comes to America's national security interests.

The conflict in the middle east has everything to do with the national security as it breads hate which breads fanatics which then threaten the soverenty of the united states.

11/9 was a prime example of the anger released by fanatics on the US when they attacked
one reason apart from US forces in Saudi was the conflict in palestine

so as much as you want to bury your head in the sand, every action effects all of us

Originally posted by Hopechest
Those are not my views per se, they are just an acknowledgement of the realist view that America's foreign policy has almost always operated under. Had the Palestinians been more accommodating of US needs, and Britains for that matter, they may very well have the land and the Jewish people may be in Ethiopia, which actually a few of their negotiaters wanted in the first place.

edit on 4-4-2013 by Hopechest because: (no reason given)

the US foreign policy has caused so much crap in the world along with the policies of other countries.
do yourself a favor look up the zionest movement

you can say they are not your views but try not to hide it the fact they are your views, just like what i write are my views.

we are not back tracking to the creation of Israel, Nor the six day war as i said its Long gone.
I wont repeat myself on what i said about the UN

reply to post by SilentKoala


What is enlightening about Zionist terrorists caving in childrens skulls, decapitating innocent people, dropping bombs on families heads and stealing land against the agreements of the mandates drawn out? Now what I said above happened in 1948. These atrocities have been covered up and now we are expected to play the tolerance card with those murderers? No, not from my end.. What goes around comes around and I hope it comes around soon for the Zionists. I pray for the innocent Jews in Israel but the leaders can go to hell. They are a disgusting breed of Christian/Jewish alliance who will bring the world to it's knees.

reply to post by Hopechest


A) Land doesn't belong to the "strongest". That is the same mentality that resulted in the colonial expropriation of Africa and the slaughter of indigenous peoples in Latin America and the US. As such laws and treaties have been created to ensure that this does not happen. Israel's membership in the UN means it is bound by the UN Charter and treaties passed by the UNSC, therefore, legally it cannot steal land.

Furthermore, Israel signed the Oslo accords. Whilst at the time, the PA did not have the status and legal rights of a state, meaning it effectively is not a treaty, it was authoritative in the sense it was signed and negotiated through the US, involved the UN and Norway. While the PA couldn't go to the ICJ to enforce the agreement, essentially it was a quasi-treaty.

B) When they do fight, when they have fought in the past (whether through the Arab armies of surrounding states, the PLO, or Hamas), members like you condemn them. So what's your point? Moreover, how does violence solve this issue?

Stupid people with stupid opinions like this are the reason these conflicts continue. If an armed group of Mexicans decided to take over the US, you wouldn't have the same belief.

reply to post by bodrul


The issue with Palestine is not as serious as losing the strategic importance of Israel was actually my point. We have a long history of supporting less than reputable regimes when the overall benefit is greater than what the negatives are.

Same thing in Israel. Sure it may breed hate but America has remained relatively untouched by it other than 9/11 and a few other isolated attacks. As you stated, the main reason for 9/11 was our positioning of troops in Saudi Arabia when Osama thought he could defend the country with his own people. Little known fact there for those that don't know.

Such nice people on this thread........

Anyhoo,

If the Two State solution is dead then I guess they might as well go at it to the death. There is only that solution or an equitable division of the land with both sides living in relative non-aggression towards the other.

There needs to be people in positions of power on BOTH SIDES that are willing to settle for half a loaf and be happy that each of them got Bread. Quite honestly I don't see that happening on either side. They are both too blinded by their indoctrinated hate of the other side to make peace with each other.

Until the next generation of leadership of both sides takes over, there will be no lasting peace.It will be up to the teenagers in Israel and Palestine to decide what fate they want for themselves. There is too much blood on the hands of the older generation on both sides to want to make peace with the other side.

Originally posted by DarknStormy
reply to post by SilentKoala

 

What is enlightening about Zionist terrorists caving in childrens skulls, decapitating innocent people, dropping bombs on families heads and stealing land against the agreements of the mandates drawn out? Now what I said above happened in 1948. These atrocities have been covered up and now we are expected to play the tolerance card with those murderers? No, not from my end.. What goes around comes around and I hope it comes around soon for the Zionists. I pray for the innocent Jews in Israel but the leaders can go to hell. They are a disgusting breed of Christian/Jewish alliance who will bring the world to it's knees.

I didn't say those things were enlightening. I don't think those things are enlightening at all. I said we shouldn't just replace that with a different breed of fundamentalism. We should replace both breeds of fundamentalism with enlightenment.

reply to post by SilentKoala


You tell 'em like it is Butters
There will be no one pushing anyone else "into the sea" today.


I mean, Get real, wake up, and stop being so damn arrogant people!
-Set an example for the next generation!

Originally posted by SilentKoala
I didn't say those things were enlightening. I don't think those things are enlightening at all. I said we shouldn't just replace that with a different breed of fundamentalism. We should replace both breeds of fundamentalism with enlightenment.

Who is we? Me, You, the local politician? How are we going to change a thing with people who couldn't give a toss about human life and who is killed? They will use any excuse, any idea including politics do justify kill swarms of people and what for? To secure a piece of land and steal resources. We are so far away from enlightenment, the word shouldn't be in anyones vocabulary.

Assume, for a moment, that the vast majority of posters on this thread are correct; Israel is a @#$& and a *&%^$ that doesn't listen to the UN.

OK, now what? As Hopechest has mentioned, they're there now and they have the weapons to defend what they have. We can take history back to 1948 or to the cavemen and that doesn't change the current situation.

So, what do you want? Another declaration from the UN? That will do what? Do you want the US to attack Israel? Like that will happen. Do you want the world to attack Israel for not following UN resolutions?

Come on, guys. The place is a mess right now. Going "They did that to us. They did it first. But we're right and they're wrong," is going to solve exactly what? We can keep going in circles that way forever. Is that the best we can come up with?

reply to post by charles1952


Well it's not just what they are doing to Palestinians. Have you seen the way they treat Christians? When ever they see a Nun/Christian they spit on them. So this is not just an Arab problem, they treat people like you and me the exact same while brainwashing us with their bs through porn, media, hollywood in our countries. They must also control the US government because any well informed Christian/American would not give those a/holes anything.



But let's just live in this ridiculous illusion they have created for us all and continue to fund those terrorists. There objective is to defile all aspects of Christian faith whilst destroying the pillars of Islam at the exact same time.

They (Israeli government) do play hardball...
If both sides had equal clout then so be it, but if one is rich,powerful, and has the wests backing, then that side should set an example and not be so heavy handed. (embargos/settlement expansion/etc...
Just saying, sometimes Israeli politics embarrass some of us
(The ones that protect/fund her)

reply to post by DarknStormy

Dear DarknStormy,

You may well be right, I don't know. But that still leaves my question unanswered. Say that they're terrible, evil, anything else you might say. Where do we go from here? And do we apply the same solution to other, similar nations?

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by charles1952
Dear DarknStormy,

You may well be right, I don't know. But that still leaves my question unanswered. Say that they're terrible, evil, anything else you might say. Where do we go from here?

Well I don't want to sound rude but if we don't wake up to ourselves sooner or later, we are going where ever they decide to take us, for better or worse. I mean, thats what they have done for the last century, correct?

And do we apply the same solution to other, similar nations?

With respect,

I don't know, you have me stumped there None of us common folk can change a thing right now without a revolution and that's the sad truth.

I mean, Get real, wake up, and stop being so damn arrogant people! -Set an example for the next generation!

no offense but i dont see a next generation even existing, the way things are going

reply to post by bodrul


Point well taken and yes we are the main supplier which I do not agree with. And I do not agree with the Un actions either as they only delay any kind of solution. It is a stalemate at this point. US stops aid and aid increases from countries on the other side and other countries step in to aid Israel. This is a no win no win for both sides and if left to escalate will only draw the world into WW3 period. I support PEACE period but know the area will never be stable. I am in my early 40's and can remember hearing about the unrest in the middle east in grade school. Yes most is caused by the US and Europe intervening and trying to play the ref.

reply to post by bodrul