People have been brainwashed to believe that socialism is evil...

Originally posted by Druscilla
reply to post by Cabin

 

To the title: yup, go figure.

You can thank USA's war on Communism for that.
There's also the taint left over from another other Socialist regime that was in power in Germany during WWII.

Socialism, however, aint bad.
Anyone wants to yell about it can pull their children out of PUBLIC School, which is a very very very Socialist program.
They can also sign off to never ever ever dip into SOCIAL Security once they get old.

There's lots of socialist programs alive and well in the USA as well as other first world countries all over that make for excellent systems.

Typically, however, it's under-educated ignorance that brings about blind hatred toward such systems.

Let me set you straight, Public schools ae paid for by the people in the form of property taxes.
Therefore, not a socialist product but a service paid for by the people.
Secondly, While i do not agree with the Social Security Act, because Govt should mind there own business in my opinion, It is also not a socialist product.
I have paid into this program my entire life, i am entitled to my money back.
If the govt had minded their own business, i would have invested that money myself.
Please ensure you understand the difference between the government giving you something that you have not paid for and you just receiving a service for your investment.

reply to post by CaptAmerika


You're right that the Social Security system is not true socialist system. But it is one of the more lucrative carney barker pyramid scheme acts ever created by a Democrat, visa vis FDR.

Seventy years later people are starting to realize just how sly and crafty FDR was.

FDR was an admitted admirer of Stalin. More than he admired Churchill. But Russia is Russia and America is more like England....

In a true socialistic society it does not matter how much education you have or how hard you work, everyone is equal.
Therefore you find stagnant progression because who is going to go to school for 7 more years after high school to achieve a high paying job when the govt sets the payscale and its all middle of the road.
No one.
Embrace it all you want but America was created as a Democratic Republic and i for one am sickened by the push from the "progressives" to socialize our nation.
Its time the states stood up and told the Feds to get bent.
Our forefathers believed in extremely limited govt with the states having all the real power.
The Feds have stolen that power and it all took off with FDR.
Now we ignore the constitution to give the people more and more in return for their votes.
Seems the democratic party has forgotten JFK's "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what can you do for your country". Now its been turned around and accepted.
I see a lot of sheep in this country and the slaughter house isnt far down the road.
People better wake up and get this country back to its core principals and fast.

reply to post by Cabin

People have been brainwashed to believe that socialism is evil

Evil? No. No more than any other human concept. Where it fails is in basically the same place where capitalism fails; neither system is perfect and both tend to punish a segment of society, albeit different ones, based on purely on concept.

People really have not been brainwashed in this respect because we have decades of example from both systems and both have repeatedly failed in one way or another.

Oh, by the way, that goes back to a basic truth; imperfect creatures cannot create a perfect ANYTHING!

But, that said, we do know that people can go headlong into anything and I suspect that there are those who bite both hooks... capitalism is ee-ville and socialism is ee-ville,.

You have to be able to balance yourself because there are very few things in life that play on the far edge of the field.

Personally, I would take a mix of 70% capitalism with 20% socialism and 10% nothing. The outcome would be far better and those who didn't like whatever they got from the mix of the first two, could fall back to some island where they could scrub for crabs, coconuts and berries.

You can thank USA's war on Communism for that.

reply to post by Druscilla


The US Red Scare, indeed, though that wouldn't explain it elsewhere.

Originally posted by Lucius Driftwood

Originally posted by 2manyquestions

Originally posted by boymonkey74
I agree, look at the happiest people in the world and they live very well under some sort of socialism.
I find it odd that in a God fearing country like the USA they go against what Jesus says...the "screw you Jack Iam doing fine" attitude disgusts me.
In the UK we have social medicine and I would fight for that tooth and nail.

I came from a socialist country. I assure you, people there were not happy. That's why many ran and risked their lives to escape it.

I think it comes down to an issue of the heart. Regardless of the idealogy you choose to impose upon a nation/ political framework you choose to run a country by, you cannot control the heart and motive of the individual.
If you take all my income and redistribute it amongst the nation for the collective benefit, but my heart is not in it, then it fails. The idea is to serve the heart of the people, the needs of the people. If I cannot identify with my neighbour, then any structure imposed upon me for the 'common good' (socialism/capitalism/communism) is flawed because it doesn't address the isue of the human heart, the seat from which all motive and intent is judged. You can force me to pay taxes. You can strip me of my assests. Doesn't mean I agree. And if you don't have the heart and consensus of the people behind your idea, it's not based on freewill but coercion, and will ultimately fail.
Eventually.

Agreed. Ideas themselves are not always terrible depending on what group of people you speak to, but you cannot expect millions of people to agree to live by your rules, when only a minority see it your way and are willing to go by those rules. When you have to use force and violence to get people to go along with it, obviously you will eventually fail. Sometimes it takes years, sometimes decades,... but ultimately it will fail.

If a socialist society is so great, why do people immigrate to capitalist societies? Why do people leave Cuba on makeshift rafts to go to Miami? Why are their millions of immigrants crossing the Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California borders from Mexico (socialist)? How is it that a capitalist society created the most profound inventions of mankind (telephone, light bulb, automobile, airplane, radio, computer, and the space program to name a few)? How is it a capitalist society became an economic powerhouse with the highest standard of living in the world? Why is it that citizen of said society are the most charitible of any other on the globe? Finally, how has this capitalist society surpassed so many other economic systems in exsistance?

Why are foreign capitalist corporations allowed to business in socialist societies (if capitalism is a failure, evil, ect.)?

Because it works! It compliments the needs of the consumers. It rewards those strive to be better. It rewards inovation ,creativity, and the skilled. Businesses which gives the consummers what they want prosper; business that don't give what the consummer what they want fail.

Face it, capitalism feeds the world both literally and metaphorically. Think every time you drive your car, it was a capitalist who designed it, manufactured it, and supplied it to the market so you could buy it. Everytime you boot your computer, get on the internet to buy and sell, this website was a product of capitalism and the free market.

Socialism is a pipe dream and a failure to the worker. It is a means of government control. Even the lowest paid workers in this society are considered wealthy on the larger scale of the world. The "too big to fails" survived due to government interference. It is the encroachment of socialism by the government which creates crony capitalism. The government's failure to enforce antitrust laws which creat monopoloies and corruption. If they did fail, the market would have quickly filled the void.

No one can dispute the success of capitalism; however, the performance of socialism is quite evident.

Want to talk about socialised medicine? In the time it takes to get a surgical proceedure in Canada, I would have already had it and be fully recovered. No one is refused medical care, it is a federal law. In fact, I know that catholic hospitals write off the care to the homeless as a charitible expense. Pay $10,000 in medical bills? Yah, that's why one has insurance and saves their money. The most paid is a deductable and the rest of the cost is covered.

The way I see it...if one fails in a capitalist society, it due to them not applying themselves and getting themselves into debt. The key is to be debt free and save for when you need (medical care) or want (basketball tickets). Personally, even with its faults, and it does have some, I would be in a capitalist society than be a serf in a socialist society...period!

Let's take a look at the death tolls of Socialist countries USSR (Lenin, Stalin): 61.9 million China (Mao): 35.2 million Germany (Hitler): 20,9 million Mao Soviets in China: 3.4 million Cambodia: 2 million Vietnam 1.6 million Yugoslavia: 1 million Suspected: North Korea: 1.6 million Added up: ~129 million dead in the 20th century. That's a real kick-arse ideology, socialism!

reply to post by mugger


Indeed it is. Except for the USSR that was Communism, and for Nazi Germany, "national Socialism." Just to be fair, list the death tolls from capitalist nations...

Obama was no more elected into office than Bush was; voter fraud, ballot box stuffing, uncounted and blocked votes, rigged voting machines and if all this was not bad enough, half of eligible Americans Voters did not even bother voting because they either saw these elections as a sham and a choice between two flavors of the same BS or were just so disgusted they did not want to bother being party to the process.

The facts are 1/2 of Americans did not want anything to do with either Obama or Romney and of those who did vote, a little less than 1/2 voted not FOR Romney but AGAINST Obama. So, don't go on about this Obama B S anymore; if the facts mattered, he would not even be qualified to have run for President and if the Justice System was not so corrupt HE and many with him would have already been Impeached and/or Arrested. Try this fact on (Children) Obama and all Elected Officials must swear an oath to support and defend our Constitution. You can count on one hand those who have not supported and promoted actions, bills and laws that are direct attacks upon our Constitution and the Oaths they made. Don't make me throw-up, it stinks enough already around here.

reply to post by Kram09


I think they meant national socialism, which is a basket of eggs all together:

Nazism, or National Socialism (German: Nationalsozialismus) in full, was the ideology of the Nazi Party in Germany and related movements outside Germany.[1][2][3][4][5] It is a variety of fascism that incorporates biological racism and antisemitism.[

Sauce

Whereas Socialism is just an economic system of social ownership.

Socialism Wiki

This thread devolved rather quickly.

Either way, you are all wrong. The second Law of Thermodynamics states:

the entropy of an isolated system never decreases, because isolated systems spontaneously evolve towards thermodynamic equilibrium—the state of maximum entropy.

The tendency for entropy to increase in isolated systems is expressed in the second law of thermodynamics — perhaps the most pessimistic and amoral formulation in all human thought.
Gregory Hill and Kerry Thornley, Principia Discordia (1965)

In layman's terms: All things die, they break down and fizzle. The universe is finite. Both of the systems being discussed have a major flaw-They are predicated on infinite resources. This is not possible and thus both systems of thought are invalid in my view.

Stop going back to what doesn't work. None of you have the answer, I don't either, but at least I'm not going back to what doesn't work.

communsim/socialism redistrubutes resource to the centralized government which redistribute's resource right into their hierarchical power structure. In effect robbing the people of the necessities of life.
Capatalism distributes resourse amongst finacial monopoly's and require's as well as exsaberates poverty in order to function.

Socialism in theory is about as honest and benevolent as a economic structure can be.With that said, as long as the power of wealth distrubution is in the hands of a minority this system will fail. But we have the technology to allocate resource through computers a non bias impartial transprant system.

The fact is, power in any form, in the hands of the few will always lead to poverty, death, and corruption. capatalism/ socialism neither are exempt.

reply to post by CranialSponge


You jest,,, but I say they've no damn business involving themselves in any of it besides the military defense!

I wonder how the Socialism in the UN document "Agenda 21 " will differ from Socialism ? I think it will be Totalitarianism as it is described . They can keep it !

Two words are incorrect. Brainwash and Evil. Socialism is simply a failure. Socialism only functions in small closed societies. The more vast the population and the reach of economic commerce the less effective Socialism is. In a confined socioeconomic environment it is manageable. Across board in a large macro setting it becomes UN-manageable.

For Socialism to work it demands the cooperation of each individual and depends on their willingness to accept a common level of existance. Evil no, join a comune if you please. A simple idea that will eventually fail, yes.

I would have to respectfully disagree with this. Let me say first that I am an American, so my view may be a little biased..however, I do believe that limited social protection is a good thing (i.e. Social Security, .ect) But how can some one look at the Purges of Stalin in the 1930's where over a million innocent Russians were murdered in the name of the "State". Communisim ignores the basic human need to better oneself..or at least give the chance to. Yes, Capitolism has its flaws..(Cronyism, profit before people corporations,.ect) but at least the citizens have a chance to profit from their own ingenuity and hard work without the worry of an opressive state that only allows for advancement through the "party". I'd rather take my chances in a free society and lose than to "get by" on what the state provides.

What's better?

A) A society where everyone knows they will never have to worry about existential things such as housing, food, medical treatment.

B) A society where some people can become ultra-rich but everyone (!) will always have to worry about existential things such as housing, food, medical care etc.?

I am not longing for a Ferrari or mansion in Beverly Hills. A "peaceful" life without worries would be much more worth to me. Therefore I would choose A) (socialism) over option B) in a heartbeat. But maybe I am just saying this because my name is not Mark Zuckerberg. But I have reason to believe that the majority of people on this planet are not Mark Zuckerberg either.

reply to post by flexy123


You don't remember the food shortages in Russia long before Communism first died . People who don't have to work will not work . You just want everybody else to do your work.

This is a reply to the title on the OP.

Actually the truth when you get down to the crux of the matter is this fact, people have been mislead into believing that man can rule himself, and that somehow one form of man made government is going to succeed where others have not.

The truth is they are all miserable failures. Every single form of man rule. All of them. It doesn't matter if it is democracy, theocracy, autocracy, nepotism, communism, tribalism, etc. etc. etc. etc. They are all failures. Not one has lead mankind into peace and prosperity. Not one form of man-made rule has gotten rid of wickedness, injustice, corruption, war.

You see, God has given man enough time to prove whether they can rule without him. At let us just assume that one form of government man has invented will have been able to rid us of injustice, or corruption, or wickedness. Which government has been able to rid mankind of poverty, or hunger, or sickness, or death? Which one has been able to control the elements, preventing us from having to face devastating earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, droughts, floods, and other natural disasters.

Which human that will rule over you can tell you, "I will control the elements. I will reign with justice. I will end poverty. I will defend the helpless. I will listen to the orphan that cries for help, I will defend the poor and defenseless. I will protect the widow, and the falsely accused." Which one can tell you, "I will prevent earthquakes. I will end disease and war. I will destroy all wickedness!" Which ONE?!

NONE.

You have all been duped into putting your trust in a system that is a failure, and has been since day one. And you have been mislead into believing that you must choose and you must support these failures.

These are the facts. They are undeniable The most stubborn among man, the most haughty and arrogant cannot provide you any of the above needs. Simply put, man is incapable of ruling himself.

Now many will say, if there is a God he does not care for he allows these things to happen. But if you ever looked into the Bible you will see that God is the Soverign of the universe. Also he has allowed man to rule himself. We are utter failures at it. Why would God step in and help a failing system? Would that not be approving of it? No, he does not approve of it and that is why he inspired the prophet to say:

(Jeremiah 10:23) I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.

And also, anyone with inexperience may read the following and become wise:

(Psalm 146:3) . . .Do not put YOUR trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.

Anyone who puts their trust in "nobles" the ruling elite of the world, whatever form of government they may offer you will only be lead to disillusion and disappointment, 100% of the time.

Those who know no better can only but trust in themselves and other imperfect humans who have no capability to provide what they need, for they have other option set before them. They are cosigned to darkness and failure, and mislead into believing that their untrustful and perfidious hearts are what they should believe in. Yet the inexperienced may read the following and become wise:

(Proverbs 3:5) . . .Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding.

Yes, worldly wisdom tells you to trust in your heart, Godly wisdom tells you not to trust in your heart for it is the most perfidious part of a person:

(Jeremiah 17:9, 10) . . .The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate. Who can know it? 1. . .

When Jesus came to earth he showed what he will do on a grand scale when he becomes ruler of the earth, as its rightful soverign. What did he do?

He cured the sicked, he gave sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, he cured the lame and the sick. He expelled demons from the possessed, and raised the dead back to life. He fed multitudes with little food. He controlled the elemtents. He told the winds to hush, and stopped the wind with put a hand gesture.

He championed the poor and the abused. He had compassion for those who were ignored and pitied the unfortunate:

(Matthew 9:36) . . .On seeing the crowds he felt pity for them, because they were skinned and thrown about like sheep without a shepherd.

He could read the heart and judged, not according to mere eye appearance, or according to rumor, rather he judged according to what was in the heart:

(John 1:47) . . .Jesus saw Na·than′a·el coming toward him and said about him: “See, an Israelite for a certainty, in whom there is no deceit.”

The kindness of Jesus lead him to not even put out the tiniest of burning wicks:

(Matthew 12:20, 21) . . .No bruised reed will he crush, and no smoldering flaxen wick will he extinguish, until he sends out justice with success. 21 Indeed, in his name nations hope.

cont...

This is the truth.

Jesus will rule over the earth. He is not a man. He is a superhuman ruler with superman abilities. And what he did while on earth showed mankind what he will do on a worldwide scale with his kingdom comes and God's will is accomplished on earth as it has been in the heaven.

Then he will break the kings of the earth to pieces in his anger, he will rid the earth of all wicked corrupt and evil mankind:

(Psalm 110:5) 5 Jehovah himself at your right hand Will certainly break kings to pieces on the day of his anger.

(2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8) . . .but, to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.

Then he will establish justice and peace:

(Isaiah 9:6, 7) 6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.

(Psalm 72:7) In his days the righteous one will sprout, And the abundance of peace until the moon is no more.

(Daniel 2:44) “And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;


And he will judge with justice and righteousness:

(Isaiah 11:3, 4) . . .And he will not judge by any mere appearance to his eyes, nor reprove simply according to the thing heard by his ears. 4 And with righteousness he must judge the lowly ones, and with uprightness he must give reproof in behalf of the meek ones of the earth. And he must strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the spirit of his lips he will put the wicked one to death.