Thought Experiment Regarding God

I would like to hear if anyone can think of ways in which an intelligence (God) could have created this universe by using your knowledge of matter/energy/logic/causality/systems.

These are a few points to consider.

- Is it possible to exist in a realm/universe/reality with different laws, quantity and quality of energy and matter, and from that reality, create a reality (like our universe) which has its own laws, conserved material, scale of space and time?
Is it possible for a reality to ever exist that does not follow laws and causality/logic ( interpret reality as a system, which exists as a whole (reality) because of each part (bits of information) and how each part reacts to each other)?

- If an intelligence resides outside of this universe ( In a way like we reside outside of our computers and ant farms), knowing the scale of the universe, its complexity, and the vast amount of ever changing information even contained in a grain of sand or a blade of grass; is it theoretically/hypothetically possible for an outside source to receive "real-time" data from this system? If so, how would it receive it. Wouldn't its method of receiving the location of every single quanta of energy from Planck's length space and time and instantly sending this information to a location outside of the universe be able to be detected, or interfere with the functioning of the universe?

So my main inquiry is; knowing what we know about the universe, information, logic, systems, can we think of any way in which an intelligence can exist in a reality, and create a reality within their reality that is self contained and cut off from their reality? Can they create a reality that uses new principles and mechanics and constituents? Can we ever create something not made from the energy/matter/atoms we are familiar with (or know are theoretically possible using the energy/matter we are familiar with... I know theories of exotic matter, but these are still using pieces of this inescapable system and its laws.. I'm asking if its possible for anything ever to create an original system that defies the laws of its reality and uses brand new stable constituents, or is the only way this is possible, is for the brand new reality to be some type of illusion using the energy/matter and time and space and feedback/computation/relationships in novel ways.

reply to post by ImaFungi

can we think of any way in which an intelligence can exist in a reality, and create a reality within their reality that is self contained and cut off from their reality? Can they create a reality that uses new principles and mechanics and constituents?

Aren't we living in just that? A sub-reality with atypical mechanics such as magnetic repulsion. (Gravity/attraction being the typical function.)

Originally posted by DeReK DaRkLy
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

can we think of any way in which an intelligence can exist in a reality, and create a reality within their reality that is self contained and cut off from their reality? Can they create a reality that uses new principles and mechanics and constituents?

Aren't we living in just that?. (Gravity/attraction being the typical function.)

Can you expand on that im not sure what you mean by "A sub-reality with atypical mechanics such as magnetic repulsion"... are you referring to the whole of the universe being the sub-reality with atypical mechanics, or human civilization and the technological progression there of?

reply to post by ImaFungi

...can we think of any way in which an intelligence can exist in a reality, and create a reality within their reality that is self contained and cut off from their reality?

If thats your question, I have my answer for you.

The Universe in which "God" or spirits reside is in the same one we are.They are all around us. We just can't see them with our eyes. Its not the same from where they are sitting.

Our eyes see color. If the entire known electromagnetic spectrum were a roll of film, it would stretch around the world. The visible to our eyes part (color) would be one inch wide. We are very limited in our abilities here.

Sometimes though the border or boundary becomes kind of "fuzzy". I have seen them over there, have you?

Is that why you are asking this question?

Our ability to answer this question is limited by our understanding of matter and energy as it stands today. In your question, you ask wether a being of enough intellect and understanding, could exist that would be capable of building this reality, constructing an entire universe, not to mention the volume in which that itself is suspended.

God basically.

But to be able to answer that question, one would have to have a much deeper understanding of the way the universe is formulated, than we currently possess. Bear in mind please, that we can only see a certain distance from our planet with the most powerful telescopes available. There is an upper limit on the distance from our planet that we can see, because after a certain distance out, due to the expansion of the universe, is moving away from us too quickly for light to have reached us yet.

Until we change perspective by a significant number of light years (i.e. once we learn the secret of faster than light travel), that will not change. There may be more out there than we are currently aware of therefore. That means that any ideas we have about how our understanding of energy and matter may change over time, will likely be proven so much bunk, when we eventually throw of the shackles of lightspeed.

Also, remember that most of our experiments in those fields happen within the confines of our own atmosphere, which encloses such a small portion of the total mass of the universe, that we cannot consider ourselves to be well informed when we consider the amount of mas in the whole universe. I believe we lack the tools to resolve this question, but it is a bloody good one.

Originally posted by intrptr
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

...can we think of any way in which an intelligence can exist in a reality, and create a reality within their reality that is self contained and cut off from their reality?

If thats your question, I have my answer for you.

The Universe in which "God" or spirits reside is in the same one we are.They are all around us. We just can't see them with our eyes. Its not the same from where they are sitting.

Our eyes see color. If the entire known electromagnetic spectrum were a roll of film, it would stretch around the world. The visible to our eyes part (color) would be one inch wide. We are very limited in our abilities here.

Sometimes though the border or boundary becomes kind of "fuzzy". I have seen them over there, have you?

Is that why you are asking this question?

The reason we know about the entire known electromagnetic spectrum and its size is because weve detected it(with instrument), so if God or spirits is made of that stuff they would be detectable.

If you are proposing that God and spirits exist in space and time in this universe but are not made of anything we are familiar with and are not detectable, can you propose a rational explanation on how this is possible, what physical laws they must follow, is this universe the only thing that exists and are these spirits subjected to the limits of this universe? Are they subjected to any limits? If they are not subjected to any limits why do they not interact, why are they not a lot more prevalent and detectable if they are unlimited in ability... what are they doing? why? what could they possibly be made of? when were they brought into existence and do they die?

God. The name some of us give to something to big for our little brains to comprehend. All I know is its a thing and no, it wont smote you.

Originally posted by TrueBrit
Our ability to answer this question is limited by our understanding of matter and energy as it stands today. In your question, you ask wether a being of enough intellect and understanding, could exist that would be capable of building this reality, constructing an entire universe, not to mention the volume in which that itself is suspended.
God basically.

Yes, though I didnt mean to insinuate it created its own volume or reality it resides in... My fault for not being clear enough. Because then this gets into the question Einstein proposed "Did God have a choice in creating this universe"? ... If God woke up dazed and confused and then had to build a volume to exist in, and then build another self contained reality, he would have been starting from restriction, his own lack of knowing infinite infinite infinite infinity information, and being able to compute infinity all at once... basically there would be restrictions, physical ones and of time and space. Theres no way that before God created this universe he would be able to know that on this day, at this micro second, I would exist and be saying this, and oh I just ate a bit of apple right now and left an exact imprint in the apple, and I just knocked a ball on the floor that bounced an exact height with an exact force i knocked it and it rolled to an exact location... this is what i mean about the infinitude of information, and the infinitude of actual infinite potentials..There is so much stuff going on in this universe are every pico second, and this is only one possible universe in one possible time made of one possible kind of stuff., So if God made one universe, this one, as infinite as it seems this would only ever be a fraction of true infinity, so wow yea coffee made me go on a tangent, but I think I was trying to talk about how I dont assume God created his own volume of reality, and then created this one, because that causes so many more questions about Gods motives and limitations in the reality he built for himself, and what reality existed for him to build with, and what did he make it of etc..

Im just supposing some logical reality that follows cause and effect and is a continuous system or realm of 'realness'. Say there is a real natural reality that exists outside of this universe, and that natural reality evolved and created intelligent beings or an intelligence. Could it be possible for those intelligent beings to create a reality completely separate from their own, using materials that are not found in their reality, and this can be carried over to asking the question about us, can we be gods of a brand new original universe that is contained in ours, but does not appear to follow the same laws as ours or is made of the same stuff... If there is a reality outside of this universe, does that mean it has to be made of energy/matter like ours is? Or if it is fundamentally different, does that mean what we perceive of as energy/matter is a physical contrivance, some system built outside of this system, using those materials, but in a way to produce activity which does not relate to the original system. For example, a computer has hard ware and software, and uses a type of energy (electricity) from these fundamental parts, computers can do all you know that computers can do, that being.. things that are radically different then they appear at the mechanical computational level, and this is because the representation of quanta and physical properties, being synonymous with the ability to interpret these physical activities as information.

Originally posted by TrueBrit


But to be able to answer that question, one would have to have a much deeper understanding of the way the universe is formulated, than we currently possess. Bear in mind please, that we can only see a certain distance from our planet with the most powerful telescopes available. There is an upper limit on the distance from our planet that we can see, because after a certain distance out, due to the expansion of the universe, is moving away from us too quickly for light to have reached us yet.

That is true, but everything we have seen seems to be similar to what we know of as existing locally. That is to say we have observed hundreds of millions of galaxies. And galaxies are collections of stars and planets and gasses and space rocks and dust. And all of those things are known to be composed of atoms. And atoms are known to react with one another according to discovered laws. So it seems this system, as far as we can observe at least, is related in its composition, and the ways in which those compositions react to itself and its parts and one another (laws).

Until we change perspective by a significant number of light years (i.e. once we learn the secret of faster than light travel), that will not change. There may be more out there than we are currently aware of therefore. That means that any ideas we have about how our understanding of energy and matter may change over time, will likely be proven so much bunk, when we eventually throw of the shackles of lightspeed.

Also, remember that most of our experiments in those fields happen within the confines of our own atmosphere, which encloses such a small portion of the total mass of the universe, that we cannot consider ourselves to be well informed when we consider the amount of mas in the whole universe. I believe we lack the tools to resolve this question, but it is a bloody good one.

Ok thanks for your response. It is more of just a theoretical pondering so I would hope people would use their imaginations and dont feel so concerned with being 'wrong' in regards to an answer to my questions.

Originally posted by threewisemonkeys
God. The name some of us give to something to big for our little brains to comprehend. All I know is its a thing and no, it wont smote you.

edit on 1-3-2013 by threewisemonkeys because: (no reason given)

How do you know its a thing? This is the sort of thing I am seeking to discuss. Can you think about how this God might exist, maybe in relation to some of the questions I posed? Is there only one God? One universe?

reply to post by ImaFungi


Its not a concern about being factually incorrect. One can theorise with impunity without fear of being wrong, because it is is the act of thought that provides the sport, the fun, the interest in life that intellectually active people partake of.

However, this is a question of such vast enormity that one could be forgiven for having no idea where to begin.

reply to post by ImaFungi


Hmm best way I can describe it is, God isn't an intelligence in its own rite. Nor it a singular thing, person, entity. It doesn't rule your life unless you let it, the concept of a God who loves you but who you should fear eternal damnation from unless you follow a bunch of rule some guy said he got from this God. That is absurd. That is control. I think what some call God, this thing they let control their lives in every aspect, is a bastardisation. It's a bit of half truth, and just enough obfuscation to make you think it's in control of you, when you are in control of it. The half truth bit is that it is in all of us. It is in all of us because we are all part of it, whatever it is. I don't think we're quite ready to understand yet. If we were we would not still be refering to it as God and churches would be relics of time when we were less evolved as a species trying to explain everything in simple terms.

Taking that into consideration, "we" did not create the universe. Or did we. Or are we just along for the ride. Who knows.

reply to post by ImaFungi

The reason we know about the entire known electromagnetic spectrum and its size is because weve detected it(with instrument), so if God or spirits is made of that stuff they would be detectable.

I said the "known" electromagnetic spectrum. What we don't know is as endless as the boundaries beyond the 'known" Universe.

What Is beyond our measure is still "out there" or "in here" or "around here". How do you explain to a two dimensional "flat lander" the concept of "up"?

Once in a while though they 'let' us 'see' them. Just so you know they or "over there" exists.

All those other questions you asked are good questions that I don't know the answer to.

How can I? I'm stuck in the third dimension still... or whatever you call it.

Originally posted by TrueBrit
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

Its not a concern about being factually incorrect. One can theorise with impunity without fear of being wrong, because it is is the act of thought that provides the sport, the fun, the interest in life that intellectually active people partake of.

However, this is a question of such vast enormity that one could be forgiven for having no idea where to begin.

I guess... but in the end the truth is a simple yes or no. Either yes, a reality that is fundamentally original and unique and physical can exist inside another reality,, or no, that is theoretically,hypothetically, rationally, logically, realistically impossible.

And if it is possible... Is it then possible (theoretically,hypothetically, rationally, logically, realistically) for all the information contained in the created system, to be registered and known on the outside as it occurs?

A dream for instance; is the appearance of a physical reality you are immersed in, and there may even be certain trends or laws, or there may be different laws from the physical reality you are familiar with, but everything that occurs in that dream has its counterpart in this physical reality, it has its physical cause and mechanism which allows that dream to exist. Same with imaging a virtual reality video game of some sort, It would only be a momentary illusion of a reality fundamentally different, you are still existing in the only real reality you have ever known, with its physical quantities and laws, but information /energy/matter of a space and time is being controlled and presented to your sensory mechanism in a way that it appears you are no longer in a familiar reality... The same is done with chemicals when certain 'hugs' are taken.

Originally posted by threewisemonkeys
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

Hmm best way I can describe it is, God isn't an intelligence in its own rite. Nor it a singular thing, person, entity. It doesn't rule your life unless you let it, the concept of a God who loves you but who you should fear eternal damnation from unless you follow a bunch of rule some guy said he got from this God. That is absurd. That is control. I think what some call God, this thing they let control their lives in every aspect, is a bastardisation. It's a bit of half truth, and just enough obfuscation to make you think it's in control of you, when you are in control of it. The half truth bit is that it is in all of us. It is in all of us because we are all part of it, whatever it is. I don't think we're quite ready to understand yet. If we were we would not still be refering to it as God and churches would be relics of time when we were less evolved as a species trying to explain everything in simple terms.

edit on 1-3-2013 by threewisemonkeys because: (no reason given)

Ok so this is your own belief/the only way you can imagine truth being? So if I interpret correctly you think this universe is the only reality, and that reality exists for the sake of its own existence and a side product of its existence is the existence of all things in and of reality including us, and so we are just as primal as anything can ever be because anything that ever is is related to what is primal. Is this along the lines of what you believe? That there is no possible ruler or controller of a system, or at least this universal system, if this universal system is the totality, nothing can exist besides exactly what the totality is and does?

Originally posted by intrptr
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

The reason we know about the entire known electromagnetic spectrum and its size is because weve detected it(with instrument), so if God or spirits is made of that stuff they would be detectable.

I said the "known" electromagnetic spectrum. What we don't know is as endless as the boundaries beyond the 'known" Universe.

What Is beyond our measure is still "out there" or "in here" or "around here". How do you explain to a two dimensional "flat lander" the concept of "up"?

Once in a while though they 'let' us 'see' them. Just so you know they or "over there" exists.

All those other questions you asked are good questions that I don't know the answer to.

How can I? I'm stuck in the third dimension still... or whatever you call it.

I dont know how all those other dimensions can exist... It makes no sense because you or noone else can explain it, because it makes no sense, there is nothing to explain. You want to believe there is more, so you simply state....there is more dimensions,, with beings we cant see.... That does nothing to prove this and you cant even explain how this would be theoretically possible or what it would mean the universe is. You are just worshipping mystery. Mystery is ignorance.

reply to post by ImaFungi

Mystery is ignorance.

Mystery is unknown. Thats why the word was invented. Since we don't have all the answers yet we call it a mystery. You didn't know the real world existed before you came out of the womb either. And yet you were part of that world even though you were unaware of it.

Try looking at this life as another womb that you will be born from / into another phase when you die... you are already there (here) too and as yet unaware of its "mystery".

reply to post by ImaFungi


Part of the human condition to try and find a reason what why something is the way it is. Perhaps sometimes it just is. Your existance is fleeting and the only reason for it is whatever you decide it is while you're here because in the grand scheme of things none of it matters. You really think what you do now will change things a million years from now? Nope. You'll be long dead and long forgotten. It's not a comforting thought but is a far more realistic proposition than expecting an everlasting afterlife of virgins and blunts. Life is what you make it. It's also short. You don't need a god to treat your fellow man with a bit of respect. You don't need god to know right from wrong. These basic common senses are part of who we are not a gift from some god. Our basic rights are rights we agree should apply to everyone, because we believe them to be moraly correct, not because they are dictated to us by god but because that thing that we are all part of tells us it feels right. We have a collective power, connection, whatever you want to call it. But it is up to us what we do with it. Of course we still need to figure out what it is. This whole god concept is a red herring and we keep bashing ourselves with it.

reply to post by ImaFungi

Sorry, I replied twice...

That does nothing to prove this and you cant even explain how this would be theoretically possible

So you want proof. Goood. Keep seeking the "truth". When you get your answer, you will know. Don't be so impatient, life is a life long process. A yearning burning mind is the best form of prayer there is. I don't mean sunday church prayer either. Go outside at night and stare up at the sky and wonder... that is true worship.

You will be answered eventually, I can tell. You have a burning desire. That does not go unanswered.

Originally posted by threewisemonkeys
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

Part of the human condition to try and find a reason what why something is the way it is. Perhaps sometimes it just is. Your existance is fleeting and the only reason for it is whatever you decide it is while you're here because in the grand scheme of things none of it matters. You really think what you do now will change things a million years from now? Nope. You'll be long dead and long forgotten. It's not a comforting thought but is a far more realistic proposition than expecting an everlasting afterlife of virgins and blunts. Life is what you make it. It's also short. You don't need a god to treat your fellow man with a bit of respect. You don't need god to know right from wrong. These basic common senses are part of who we are not a gift from some god. Our basic rights are rights we agree should apply to everyone, because we believe them to be moraly correct, not because they are dictated to us by god but because that thing that we are all part of tells us it feels right. We have a collective power, connection, whatever you want to call it. But it is up to us what we do with it. Of course we still need to figure out what it is. This whole god concept is a red herring and we keep bashing ourselves with it.

I agree with a bit of what you said... but understand this discussion or philosophical questions are not for my personality or egos benefit, I just want to think about what may be true... The whole god concept is not a red herring because it potentially may be true, which is basically the premise of my thread, can we think of how an intelligence could have scientifically created this universe, which is why I posed the questions I did concerning the physical parameters and concepts which would have to be met in order for that scenario to be possible. So I ask you to further discussion; Do you think it is impossible for a God to have created this universe?