Love vs Tyranny

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
You need to answer the first premise.

Memories arent the only thing, there is a common fabric that unifies everything; invisible to our senses but exists as animals know it-electromagnitism; primal instinct has to pay a role even with the human. Regarding the capabilty to see many things, perspectives at the same time we can, sculptors and painters would tell you so. They see in their minds eye their interpretation of those spacial perceptions conceived in unique time place events. What is troubling is that the mind warps perception to a specific vision of whatever the intent is (memory etc). The instantaneous visual conceptual changes in the room are processed by some magnificent mechanism. We always will be behind in our perseptions but not by anything we can measure. We'd all go mad otherwise. One example of that which I know something is; in real time? my pulse.

What I meant was to forget my example with the mirror - just consider what the actual room looks like to you directly. No matter how many perspectives could be visualized simultaneously, you could not say definitively EXACTLY what the room looks like. The mind reflects but does not absolutely perceive exactly what anything looks like - much less what anything actually IS. It cannot know present Reality directly.

Even relative to your consideration of vibratory forces, e.g., electro-magnetism - they still need to register in the knowing mind, and therefore once again, the mind is already in the past relative to the actual vibratory forces it senses. The mind is of past time, and therefore never gains a complete picture of ACTUAL Reality.

The mind is a marvel, but it is mainly just a point-of-view machine. However, it can actually be transcended in the depths of consciousness itself.

reply to post by jmdewey60

The main point is that most of what people think they know about God does not come from the Bible, but a weird sort of mythology invented in Medieval times.

My premise, as stated in my original post, questions believers - and, by extension, the Bible itself. Regardless of whether such beliefs coincide with medieval culture, these beliefs are corroborated by scripture. And I am challenging it.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

. . . these beliefs are corroborated by scripture.

If you think so, then you should quote the scripture, and I will go down the list and refute the standard interpretation of them, one by one.
The interpretation of the scripture is highly biased by myths that crept into the church during the Dark Ages, and don't hold up to modern scholarship at all.

reply to post by jmdewey60

If you think so, then you should quote the scripture, and I will go down the list and refute the standard interpretation of them, one by one.

So be it...

Job 37:16


Do you know the balancings of the clouds,
the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge.

Psalm 147:5


Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
his understanding has no limit.


1 Samuel 2:3


Talk no more so very proudly,
let not arrogance come from your mouth;
for the LORD is a God of knowledge,
and by him actions are weighed.

Isaiah 55:9


For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.


Matthew 19:26

But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”



Jeremiah 32:27 ESV

“Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh. Is anything too hard for me?


Isaiah 44:24 ESV

Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Interesting how his understanding has no limit, yet he still feels the need to condemn us even knowing why we rebelled. Even knowing how his own hand engineered our rebellion. Is that love, or is that tyranny?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

So be it...

Lucky for me, it's a short list, otherwise I might be all day at it.
I might not understand exactly what you point is, so I'll just explain these verses as I see them.

"Do you know the balancings of the clouds(?)"
A question, to challenge Job's qualification for criticizing that particular god's handling of the part of the world He is responsible for overseeing.

". . . his understanding has no limit."
A hymn of praise using hyperbolic language, describing how God understands how things work and why.

". . . the LORD is a God of knowledge,
and by him actions are weighed. "
God doesn't do things without proper consideration.

" . . . my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."
From God's perspective, he sees more than we do, and has thought beyond the mundane ones we experience, thinking about mainly just our own little lives.

". . . with God all things are possible.”
This is in response to the "astonishment" that the disciples felt, in reaction to Jesus going against what was thought by the people then to be true, that poor people are that way because they somehow deserve it, and rich people are somehow better, and blessed by God.
Jesus reverses that and is saying, in effect, that He does not have to comply with what people think is true about how He acts.
It is possible for God to reward people differently than what seems apparent in this life, because there is another life where God can act as He sees fit, by doing something like judging a person by what he does with his wealth, rather than judging him by how much wealth he has.

'“Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh. Is anything too hard for me?'
This is an example of a 'retroactive' prophecy, where The Lord is saying, "Go ahead, Jeremiah, and buy with silver this property, though it seems barren and worthless, especially when it looks certain the Babylonians are going to be taking over the area shortly."
The point being that since he is the god of that region, Canaan, He can bring back the proper inhabitants that belong there according to his wishes. Then the land will end up being worth what Jeremiah paid for it.

'Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,'
This is the opening of a separate section and is part of the introduction to this scene, a hymn to the god, in hyperbolic terms, establishing the authority of the god to give prophecy.
The clause, "your redeemer" in the context is referring to Israel and its redemption in terms of going back to its proper place in the god's land.
The "formed in the womb" part would be a reference to the story in Genesis, of how there were two competing twin brothers in the womb of Rebekah, Jacob and Esau.
Jacob later became Israel, who the Israelites were descended from, so the nation, Israel, was in this hymn, depicted as being formed in the womb, in a metaphorical way to describe the dependence for its very existence, on the intercession by God. That is, whether or not, God actually had a hand in literally forming anyone "in the womb".
The second part of the verse, "made all things", is the attempt at the god concept of the Israelite national god being expanded to having sovereignty that included that of the Persians once they crossed the hypothetical boundary of the land under the rule of that god, the Euphrates River. The importance being that God is claiming to be able to direct King Cyrus of the Persians to restore Israel through the Jews under his jurisdiction, and to authorize the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I don't see how you're disagreeing with my premise. And at this point, I'm about this close | | to saying screw it, I'm done.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I don't see how you're disagreeing with my premise. And at this point, I'm about this close | | to saying screw it, I'm done.

"Done" posting on ats, and going on with your life not taking God into consideration?
Or, something else, like not paying attention to my posts, since to you, they can't persuade you into believing there can be a God different than the one people seem to be pushing off on you.

reply to post by jmdewey60

"Done" posting on ats, and going on with your life not taking God into consideration?
Or, something else, like not paying attention to my posts, since to you, they can't persuade you into believing there can be a God different than the one people seem to be pushing off on you.

I don't know yet. Hasty decisions often raise more problems than they solve. This is what I'm tired of:

The paradox of our time in history is that we have taller buildings but
shorter tempers, wider freeways, but narrower viewpoints. We spend more,
but have less; we buy more, but enjoy less. We have bigger houses and
smaller families, more conveniences, but less time. We have more degrees
but less sense, more knowledge, but less judgment, more experts, yet more
problems, more medicine, but less wellness.

We drink too much, smoke too much, spend too recklessly, laugh too little,
drive too fast, get too angry, stay up too late, get up too tired, read too
little, watch TV too much, and pray too seldom. We have multiplied our
possessions, but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and
hate too often.

We've learned how to make a living, but not a life. We've added years to
life not life to years. We've been all the way to the moon and back, but
have trouble crossing the street to meet a new neighbor. We conquered outer
space but not inner space.

We've done larger things, but not better things. We've cleaned up the air,
but polluted the soul. We've conquered the atom, but not our prejudice.

We write more, but learn less. We plan more, but accomplish less.

We've learned to rush, but not to wait. We build more computers to hold
more information, to produce more copies than ever, but we communicate less
and less.

These are the times of fast foods and slow digestion, big men and small
character, steep profits and shallow relationships. These are the days of
two incomes but more divorce, fancier houses, but broken homes.

These are days of quick trips, disposable diapers, throwaway morality, one
night stands, overweight bodies, and pills that do everything from cheer,
to quiet, to kill.

It is a time when there is much in the showroom window and nothing in the
stockroom. A time when technology can bring this letter to you, and a time
when you can choose either to share this insight, or to just hit delete.

Remember; spend some time with your loved ones, because they are not going
to be around forever. Remember, say a kind word to someone who looks up to
you in awe, because that little person soon will grow up and leave your
side.

Remember to give a warm hug to the one next to you because that is the only
treasure you can give with your heart and it doesn't cost a cent. Remember,
to say, "I love you" to your partner and your loved ones, but most of all
mean it. A kiss and an embrace will mend hurt when it comes from deep
inside of you. Remember to hold hands and cherish the moment for someday
that person will not be there again. Give time to love, give time to speak
and give time to share the precious thoughts in your mind.

It's a beautiful little essay, it really is. And yet, no one cares. How can we seize our true potential, how can we be the very best we can be...when we spend our time worshipping, praying, thanking, crediting a god whose very existence resembles the tyrannies of old? How can we be the very best when we continue to tell ourselves we're only second best?

I don't understand how we spend the entirety of our mortals lives demanding to have a voice, demanding to have our freedom, only to gladly surrender every freedom we ever wanted as soon as we die. Is the afterlife so very different that we can happily pray to a dictator even as we curse the ones on Earth?

That is only a small fraction of my difficulty here, but it is an important fraction. And it's the fraction I was thinking of when I posted this thread. Therefore, that is the concern I am focused on. That is the answer I want right now. So far, no one has managed to give it to me. And I am so very close to giving up because everyone is working as hard as they can to get absolutely nowhere because that's what everyone else is doing. It's so pointless, it makes me sick.

So if we preach love, but worship a tyrant, how the hell are we supposed to get out of this mess?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

So give me a good reason for joining the race. Give me a good reason to waste my life on something like that.

What I was thinking about yesterday was the movie with Daniel Day Lewis, The Last of the Mohicans.
I have studied the history of this period, and this story in the movie fits with an actual event.
It makes you wonder, are the French in this event, evil?
How are the English, who submit to a treaty to end the battle, good, by allowing themselves to be massacred by the Indians, like lambs to the slaughter?
Are the English, "good Christians", and the French, godless heathen?
Is there anything of value to their sacrifice?
Yes, because we can watch the movie in honor of those people and see how wicked those French people really were.
Being good, has its rewards, but to the individual involved in that event (who dies, in this case), only if there is a God.

reply to post by jmdewey60

What I was thinking about yesterday was the movie with Daniel Day Lewis, The Last of the Mohicans.
I have studied the history of this period, and this story in the movie fits with an actual event.
It makes you wonder, are the French in this event, evil?
How are the English, who submit to a treaty to end the battle, good, by allowing themselves to be massacred by the Indians, like lambs to the slaughter?
Are the English, "good Christians", and the French, godless heathen?
Is there anything of value to their sacrifice?
Yes, because we can watch the movie in honor of those people and see how wicked those French people really were.
Being good, has its rewards, but to the individual involved in that event (who dies, in this case), only if there is a God.

So morals only exist if there is a deity involved? Or are moral-driven actions only rewarded by a deity? Perhaps some clarification is necessary here.

As I have repeatedly mentioned, AfterInfinity, I like much of what you posted, and also parts of that post containing the cool essay you just posted.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
That is only a small fraction of my difficulty here, but it is an important fraction. And it's the fraction I was thinking of when I posted this thread. Therefore, that is the concern I am focused on. That is the answer I want right now. So far, no one has managed to give it to me. And I am so very close to giving up because everyone is working as hard as they can to get absolutely nowhere because that's what everyone else is doing. It's so pointless, it makes me sick.

However, this snippet from your post has always seemed to me what you would inevitably conclude because you have been very inflexible in accepting other peoples' viewpoints as valid in terms of your argurment.

I for one am not sitting around doing nothing about the terrible mess of this world and going along with it because most others seem oblivious. Several people on this thread have also seemed serious to me, but you pretty much dismiss us all because we do not exactly agree with your argued point of view in your opening post.

And as I said at one point, maybe that is what you actually want so you can feel betrayed and justifiably separate from all others. Don't misinterpret what I say though, because we all tend to do this separative action - it's just what egos inevitably do to further justify the feeling of separation due to profound fear, sorrow, anger, and frustration with life as it seems to be.

But until this core illusion or presumption of separation from all others is fully inspected and released in our Prior Unity or Reality Itself, everything else that can be done becomes at best a partial solution (which is better than nothing, albeit partial). But understand that it is the ego-principle of separation and unlove that results in what that essay you quoted is pointing out. For this reason, I defended Jesus' core commandments, even though I am not Christian.

There is not enough power with the separative ego to actually counter everything that essay points out - only the force and energy of Reality, of Truth, of Conscious Light, can change our being enough to begin to make a really substantial difference.

reply to post by bb23108


Fighting tyrants in life only to embrace the biggest one of all when we die. That's my issue right now. Where does love end and tyranny begin?

My presumption is based on the groundwork laid by modern Christians, who will affect the future of this world. Your beliefs are your own, and are not common Christian doctrine. I'm done discussing that with you because no Christian I know adheres to your interpretations, and I'm fairly certain the Vatican doesn't either.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by bb23108

 

Fighting tyrants in life only to embrace the biggest one of all when we die. That's my issue right now. Where does love end and tyranny begin?

My presumption is based on the groundwork laid by modern Christians, who will affect the future of this world. Your beliefs are your own, and are not common Christian doctrine. I'm done discussing that with you because no Christian I know adheres to your interpretations, and I'm fairly certain the Vatican doesn't either.

edit on 11-3-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Did you even read what I just wrote to you? This is exactly what I mean - you only want to argue your point with Christians - as you said, to hunt some prey. You don't seem particularly aligned to a real solution - only to arguing that most Christians' assumptions are wrong. Well, it isn't just Christians - but the universal ego-principle of separation and unlove that is the problem, but as you just said once again, you are done discussing that! So be it then.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

So morals only exist if there is a deity involved? Or are moral-driven actions only rewarded by a deity? Perhaps some clarification is necessary here.

Not exactly.
Morals exist, or are rational, if there is an afterlife.
That is the fundamental Christian belief, and according to the early Christians, as spelled out by those who were philosophers and were able to articulate those beliefs, along with an explanation that is up to the standards of acceptable philosophical formulation.
What is necessary along that chain of events: life, then afterlife, is a god who is able to insure that things are brought about in a just manner. God being the guardian of justice, and something anything resembling a religion will have included.
What may be causing your trouble is there seems to be presented by the part of today's culture presenting itself as religious, a version of god that you question as having the ability to be just.
Properly viewed, Christianity answers that question, where Jesus, a man wrongly accused and unjustly put to death, is vindicated at the end by the god he was presenting, the one we believe in.
The current problem is that at work is the same forces of injustice that killed Jesus, offering a false interpretation of the Jesus story by telling us that Jesus was a sort of sacrifice to appease a vengeful god who needed to have satisfaction for every bad thing done, and "bad" being strictly enforced that is set according to a whim by and involves odd rituals and 'worship' of this deity requiring blood and money.

reply to post by bb23108


Because what you are arguing is not the Christianity I am talking about. In fact, by Vatican consensus, what you are talking about is blasphemy. It's not rocket science.

reply to post by jmdewey60


So you're saying that the Bible was engineered to discredit "God" as a loving deity?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

So you're saying that the Bible was engineered to discredit "God" as a loving deity?

No, that it is used in a dishonest way to make it seem like that is how the Bible portrays God.
It's the same sort of people doing it who thought they were being loyal to God by killing Jesus.
To themselves, they think they are religious, but they're doing more harm than good by misrepresenting what Christianity is about.