Religious people: Do you believe in magic?

So I was contemplating the mindset of your typical theist. I concluded that they have to by default believe in magic. Not some very subtle "earth energy" type stuff, but full blown harry potter magic.

There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

Actually, the bible is littered with passages discussing wizards and witches, spells, incantation, etc.

And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

Not to mention the whole nature of the deity and angels themselves being super magical beings.

Islam teaches of Djinn (Genies - bottle).


So, as a religious person, do you personally believe in Gandalf and Merlin as real potential beings, or do you interpret these passages as simply misunderstood sciences of the time (aka, the Persians using gunpowder mini bombs weren't throwing magic fireballs but rather just crude grenades).

If you believe it to be misunderstood sciences of the day, do you believe many things written in your holy book may be a bit dated and misunderstood ancient speak? And if you believe in actual magic, have you personally witnessed anything that truly defied any possible scientific explanation?


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I was considering putting this into the paranormal forum considering its more focused on magic than any specific religion...will let a mod decide that one.

Incidently, I meant to imply when asking about scientific explanation, not necessarily by todays standards, but general concept of science ever (such as science could never prove or explain a deity given the nature of it not existing in this universe, therefore not bound by any physics or nature of this realm).

For instance, one can believe in a "ghost", but deem it perfectly natural..just not measurable at the moment due to our crude tools, but not supernatural at all.

reply to post by SaturnFX


i am very religious by nature,, not any of the typical religions,, but still,
i think magic is a word for something we cant understand.. i know that there are beings, capable of making the earth flat instead of round by snapping its fingers, and we would all accept this as the truth, from that day on....
man, we really dont`t have the slightest clue.... about anything.... this is all, some strange sorcery..

and yes, gandalf was from atlantis, tolkien just probably ate shrooms while writing, so he channeled something i guess,,, that goes for many great writers by the way,,,

Originally posted by solve
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

i am very religious by nature,, not any of the typical religions,, but still,
i think magic is a word for something we cant understand.. i know that there are beings, capable of making the earth flat instead of round by snapping its fingers, and we would all accept this as the truth, from that day on....
man, we really dont`t have the slightest clue.... about anything.... this is all, some strange sorcery..

We may see many things in this universe as unknown.

My personal view on it is that it may be unknown, but it is not unknowable...unknowable = magic, unknown is simply not yet understood scientifically.
One wish I would have for immortality is to see us slowly unveil the mysteries this universe offers. I envy our collective mindset in whatever...a thousand years...

I believe in God and Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit. And there is a so called magic. If you read about the 10 plagues, Egypt's sorcerers couldn't replicate the gnats. They were able to replicate most of the others. Also another time that magic is seemed to be used is, when Aaron's staff is transformed into a snake. I think this can be considered an act directly from God.
Here is Wiki regarding Aaron's staff ( This could also where the Magic Wand came from)
Aaron's Rod

From Wiki about the Plauges
3. Plague of lice or gnats (כִּנִּים): Ex. 8:12–15
“ Then the LORD said […] "Stretch out thy rod, and smite the dust of the land, that it may become lice throughout all the land of Egypt." […] When Aaron stretched out his hand with the staff and struck the dust of the ground, gnats came upon men and animals. All the dust throughout the land of Egypt became lice. ”

— Exodus 8:16–17

The third plague of Egypt was lice. The Hebrew noun could be translated as lice, gnats, or fleas.[30] God instructed Moses to tell Aaron to take the staff and strike at the dust, which turned into a mass of lice that the Egyptians could not get rid of. The Egyptian sorcerers declared that this act was "the finger of God" since they were unable to reproduce its effects with their magic.

I don't like Magic, imo I think it's wrong.

Originally posted by solve
and yes, gandalf was from atlantis, tolkien just probably ate shrooms while writing, so he channeled something i guess,,, that goes for many great writers by the way,,,

edit on 22-2-2013 by solve because: oopsie daisy

Doubt drugs, but he was an avid drinker. I went to this almost literal hole in the wall pub in Oxford once.Their claim to fame was that Tolkien and some others used to drink there often (some sort of literature group) and discuss linguistics, stories, etc.

Probably why drinking and smoking is prominent in his books actually.

reply to post by SaturnFX


That would bee cool, if the mysteries were revealed, but it would get, like super boring real fast,,or slow or whenever,
don`t you like our comfortable illusions created by vibrations,, like physical, concrete state of being,, and time is a very cool effect too,, imagine if you would have to live in the eternal? that would be insane,,,


these things will happen eventually, if our sciences can keep improving at the current rate..

nothing good can come out of our accomplishments, in the end.... singularity,,

Your two Biblical quotations are both criticising the practice of magic.

I suggest that you go to "The Golden Bough", by the anthropologist Sir James Frazer, and look up his fourth chapter, entitled "Magic and Religion".
You will see him explaining that there is a "radical conflict of principle" between Magic and Religion.

To paraphrase, the difference is this;
The believer in Religion believes the universe is run by conscious powers higher than himself.
The believer in Magic believes that the world is run by a set of rules which the human operator can learn to manipulate. In that respect, it resembles a primitive version of science.

The believer in Magic says "If I follow the right procedure, I can make it rain"
The believer in Religion says "If I ask X nicely, then X might make it rain".

That is why the Bible criticises magic.

reply to post by SaturnFX

Probably why drinking and smoking is prominent in his books actually.

It was a medieval world. No technology. Drinking and smoking was probably the only way to break the monotony.

In regards to the actual topic: as far as I am aware, witchcraft is strictly forbidden. If you are caught engaging in any form of arcane art, the people are supposed to kill you - after due trial, of course.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
So, as a religious person, do you personally believe in Gandalf and Merlin as real potential beings

No, I do not.

I have the rather unenviable position of being a "skeptical theist" -- I believe in God, and that's about it. I don't believe in magic, any more than I believe in Atlantis, Bigfoot, telepathy, horoscopes, water dowsing or pretty much anything else that goes into the "paranormal" category.

I'm not sure that I would believe in God, either, apart from personal experiences that I've had that have shown me that there are things in my life that are only attributable to an existence that is consistent with the generally accepted description of the Christian God.

Everything else that I've investigated has either been bogus or has a natural, rather than supernatural, explanation, so no, there's no such thing as magic, and past instances have either been bogus or misunderstood natural manifestations (one could argue that they could be a product of God, but I see no reason to a) assume that Merlin existed and b) he was granted special powers, for no particular reason, by God.)

reply to post by SaturnFX


I am religious and I believe in magic. Full. Blown. Magic.

Originally posted by adjensen
only attributable to an existence that is consistent with the generally accepted description of the Christian God.

Isn't the belief in magic though required to be a Christian? It is referred to many times in the (Christian) bible, and the bible is theoretically infallible..

Or..do you see the Christian deity as not so much a supernatural force as just a highly advanced natural force?

For instance...if a spaceship came and off stepped Zeus, Hera, etc...I would believe in the ancient greek gods..but not as gods verses just really advanced aliens that pop in now and then and mess with us primates..but using advanced science anyhow.

Is God magical I guess is the question.

Originally posted by Cuervo
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

I am religious and I believe in magic. Full. Blown. Magic.

-narrows his eyes-
I am a bit skeptical about your claim.
So, to this, I then ask you...Could god saw a person in half, then put them back together again?
If Yes....
Then why has god never answered the prayers of amputee's

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
In regards to the actual topic: as far as I am aware, witchcraft is strictly forbidden. If you are caught engaging in any form of arcane art, the people are supposed to kill you - after due trial, of course.

edit on 22-2-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Right, I wasn't discussing the outlook of such things. To forbid something, you must first accept it as reality.
Else might as well say no riding unicorns...

So witchcraft and the like must then be seen as actual real things in judism/Christianity/islam to begin with...then forbid it.
Meaning, you must believe in magic first, then deny it.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by adjensen
only attributable to an existence that is consistent with the generally accepted description of the Christian God.

Isn't the belief in magic though required to be a Christian? It is referred to many times in the (Christian) bible, and the bible is theoretically infallible..

I am not a Fundamentalist, so I do not view the Bible as the inerrant word of God.

Or..do you see the Christian deity as not so much a supernatural force as just a highly advanced natural force?

No, by definition, the creation cannot contain the creator, so if one views God as the "Creator God" (as I do) then he is, by definition, supernatural.

Is God magical I guess is the question.

God's natural isn't magical, no. But can God, as a supernatural being, do something that appears to be magic? As I said earlier, yes, but I fail to see any reasonable reason for such a deception.

Words= magical
Come on, you know this, words transcend, generation to generation, gap to gap.
It's what makes us human. To deny it is to deny your future

Originally posted by adjensen

Or..do you see the Christian deity as not so much a supernatural force as just a highly advanced natural force?

No, by definition, the creation cannot contain the creator, so if one views God as the "Creator God" (as I do) then he is, by definition, supernatural.

That just confuses me.
I see what your saying. I know what your saying, I just never have understood what that means overall.
If God is outside the creation, then he is inside a different creation (the age old question, who then created God).

This is far outside of anyones understanding at the moment. in the realm of philosophy and speculation. I understand that..but even the philosophy is like trying to contemplate the sound of one hand clapping. I think this is one of my biggest issues with any religion to accept personally (outside of all the hooey). It defies any logic or rational consideration.

If I make a virtual reality...and within that VR, I create strong AI. am I the god of that universe (since I am outside of that reality, I have created it all...) This I can sort of understand...but I don't think I would qualify as a deity, even though I would have the power of creation and destruction by a simple decision...so in regards to definition, I would in some technical sense be the deity of that universe..just not all universes...and in the end, there is no getting outside all systems, because even outside of the system, your just in a bigger one (in the Christian sense, your of the kingdom of god)

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by Cuervo
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

I am religious and I believe in magic. Full. Blown. Magic.

-narrows his eyes-
I am a bit skeptical about your claim.
So, to this, I then ask you...Could god saw a person in half, then put them back together again?
If Yes....
Then why has god never answered the prayers of amputee's

You know that "religious" isn't a synonym for "Christian", right? To answer your question, I don't know if any of the gods could do that nor if they ever have in recent history. I also wouldn't presume as to their reasons. Many gods and goddesses would have no interests doing so but some would. The ones I worship operate on a different level and can affect fate and outcomes. I wouldn't expect my goddess to grow my arm back but I wouldn't be surprised if she made me miraculously avoid the giant rogue chainsaw that would have cut if off in the first place.

Imagine having a bag of aluminum cans that you are throwing into the recycling machine to be turned into cans again. If you spot one that's dented, does a recycling guy rush out to fix it or does he just wait for it to be a new can again?

On a side note, I agree with your notion about Christians in the sense that they either discard some of the bible or they need to concede to the belief in magic. That's the great irony of it all. Jesus and Moses were both incredible witches yet Christians think magic is a sin. The word they used in the bible was "poisoner", not "witch" but people like to translate it that way apparently. If anything, the bible was saying "Suffer not a pharmacist to live".

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by adjensen

Or..do you see the Christian deity as not so much a supernatural force as just a highly advanced natural force?

No, by definition, the creation cannot contain the creator, so if one views God as the "Creator God" (as I do) then he is, by definition, supernatural.

That just confuses me.
I see what your saying. I know what your saying, I just never have understood what that means overall.
If God is outside the creation, then he is inside a different creation (the age old question, who then created God).

This is far outside of anyones understanding at the moment. in the realm of philosophy and speculation. I understand that..but even the philosophy is like trying to contemplate the sound of one hand clapping. I think this is one of my biggest issues with any religion to accept personally (outside of all the hooey). It defies any logic or rational consideration.

Well, I don't know that it defies logic, I'm a logical person (to a fault, lol) and it makes perfect sense to me.

We know nothing of God's realm of existence, because we cannot. We are limited to that which is observable and measurable, the natural world, but a creator God and where ever he happens to be (if it can even be considered a place) cannot be a part of the natural world, because he can't exist in the natural world before or at the time of its creation. After the fact, that's another matter (perhaps... and that's where the whole "Incarnation" bit comes into Christianity) but at some point, we know that God is not a natural object, hence is supernatural (supra-natural might be a better term, given the concepts otherwise attached to the word supernatural.)

Yes, these are matters of philosophy, and people have been debating them for thousands of years, with no end in sight. You may find this of interest (and it's not religious in nature,) as it's an ancient look at how two disparate realms might be seen to exist: Plato's Theory of Forms.

reply to post by adjensen

God's natural isn't magical, no. But can God, as a supernatural being, do something that appears to be magic? As I said earlier, yes, but I fail to see any reasonable reason for such a deception.

"God" created "Satan", the so-called king of deception. I don't think what you "see" is relevant, as per the thousands of unanswered prayers in addition to continued temptation and seduction by the lord of the underworld.

No need for deception indeed.