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Originally posted by NorEaster
If you look at traffic, you see a number of lesser systems in confluence; cars, people (drivers, pedestrians, street crews, policemen, etc), asphalt surface or lack of pavement perhaps, number and condition of roadway lanes, time of day, day of the year, culture, degree of technological sophistication of the society involved, weather, local traffic regulations, and probably plenty more contributing systems depending on the specific emergence being examined.
The emergent system defies all attempts of material reductionists to quantify the true nature of physical reality
Originally posted by NorEaster
The emergent system defies all attempts of material reductionists to quantify the true nature of physical reality, and this is what makes the existence of the emergent system so valuable to the effort of establishing a plausible Theory of Everything.
Originally posted by ImaFungi
Originally posted by NorEaster
If you look at traffic, you see a number of lesser systems in confluence; cars, people (drivers, pedestrians, street crews, policemen, etc), asphalt surface or lack of pavement perhaps, number and condition of roadway lanes, time of day, day of the year, culture, degree of technological sophistication of the society involved, weather, local traffic regulations, and probably plenty more contributing systems depending on the specific emergence being examined.
^this reduction
The emergent system defies all attempts of material reductionists to quantify the true nature of physical reality
proves that this^ is not true.
well sorry. I was confused. In your example of the emergent system of traffic.. It is reducible and understandable by being the total sum of its parts, along with other background information which helps to comprehend if you have existed for some time as a human.
Originally posted by ImaFungi
Originally posted by NorEaster
The emergent system defies all attempts of material reductionists to quantify the true nature of physical reality, and this is what makes the existence of the emergent system so valuable to the effort of establishing a plausible Theory of Everything.
So if anything, Imo, It is the relative duration of the emergent system, and its level of complexity and sophistication, coupled with being born as a completely ignorant observer... which makes reducing and deducing the true nature, mechanics, and principles and meanings and histories, of the universal system, so difficult and challenging.
Originally posted by smithjustinb
Great explanation dude. Your altruism has been appreciated. You should be altruistic more often.
Originally posted by soficrow
reply to post by NorEaster
Got anything that applies this to emergent biological systems?
Originally posted by NorEaster
Originally posted by soficrow
reply to post by NorEaster
Got anything that applies this to emergent biological systems?
- Life. Auto-animate life is an emergent system
- The orbit is the most primitive emergent system that exists.
- The human mind - i.e. Consciousness.
Those are the most important emergent systems that exist.
Damn, that's practically giving the whole store away.
Originally posted by NorEaster
This isn't reductionism. The nature of traffic is not the nature of the parts. There is an emergent "collectivism" that can completely transcend the nature of any combination of lesser contributive parts, depending on circumstance - which is the wild card within this specific emergence system. Another very similar emergent system that features this transcendence is a mob. Each contributing member of a mob has their own specific psychological profile, and even if you balance the sum of all of the psychological profiles of each member against each other member, and combine and layer each profile according to dominance, submissiveness, aggression, passivity, personal predilection, social behavior and what-have-you, one to the next in any mathematical prediction algorithm you choose, there;s no way to accurately predict the "psychological profile" of the mob itself as the emergent system that it is.
This is the same thing that makes traffic the emergent system that it is. It's fundamental "personality" will be unique and unpredictable regardless of whether you have all the pertinent data concerning every integral or ancillary contributive system involved. The collective "psychological profile" will still be unique and unpredictable - and this has always been true of both mobs and traffic. The key to traffic being an emergent system is the fact that it does have a "personality", and no two traffic "personality profiles" are alike or can ever be alike. A reductionist could never explain or anticipate that most primary aspect of the identity of traffic or a mob, if handed all the data possible for each and every contributing part - and this is why traffic (and a mob) is greater (or just completely different) than the sum of its parts.
Originally posted by NorEaster
All things can be reduced, but an emergent system can't be properly explained (or predicted) by reduction. Why it is that one traffic congestion - featuring the same number of cars moving within the same finite space of time and area - will always end up being a unique whole and unpredictably so, is something that can't be determined by a reductionist approach. The free decisions of every human being in every car, changing the entire nature of that emergent system from instant to instant, is only one reason why traffic can't be simply the sum of its parts. One small shift within the whole has immediate and potentially exponential ramifications within the very same whole, regardless of what that shift may be. And the hyper-dynamic nature of the confluence itself insists that many such shifts occur, and in an ongoing manner. And that's only the impact that human response/reaction/initiation has on the whole of traffic as the emergent system that it is. There are others, even if we can't reasonably anticipate what they might be. A mechanical breakdown. An accident. Many such contributing potentials that won't exist until they suddenly do exist. And this is with a traffic confluence that has been carefully replicated again and again. Not even a normal spontaneously emergent traffic confluence.
As you can see (I hope) there's no possible way to reduce traffic to a mere sum of its parts. There's a transcendent character that emerges as the "personality" of the moment that a specific traffic system exists, and this is the emergence that occurs. That behavior that exists while that traffic confluence exists. Be it aggressive or pastoral or any gradient between the two, or something completely unrecognizable, that "personality" exists, and is the primary identification mark of that traffic confluence as the emergent system that it is. And that "personality" can't be reduced.
Originally posted by NorEaster
Originally posted by ImaFungi
Originally posted by NorEaster
The emergent system defies all attempts of material reductionists to quantify the true nature of physical reality, and this is what makes the existence of the emergent system so valuable to the effort of establishing a plausible Theory of Everything.
So if anything, Imo, It is the relative duration of the emergent system, and its level of complexity and sophistication, coupled with being born as a completely ignorant observer... which makes reducing and deducing the true nature, mechanics, and principles and meanings and histories, of the universal system, so difficult and challenging.
It's also the fact of an emergent "character" that is unlike any contributing part's character - with that "character" (the personality of the moment itself) as the most obvious and descriptive aspect of (let's say, considering the example) the experience of dealing with that one confluence of traffic, that makes it an emergent system. You can describe how many cars there were, the impact of the heat of the day, the condition of the street surface, the functionality of the traffic lights, and a host of other things, but you would still have to describe the overall "personality" of the confluence, as a whole, if you wanted to accurately describe the specific experience you had as someone who confronted that emergent system - that traffic - to any extent. That "personality", as I detailed above, is the emergence that makes traffic the emergent system that it is. That "personality" exists only as long as that confluence of traffic exists, but it does exist.
Originally posted by soficrow
Originally posted by NorEaster
Originally posted by soficrow
reply to post by NorEaster
Got anything that applies this to emergent biological systems?
- Life. Auto-animate life is an emergent system
- The orbit is the most primitive emergent system that exists.
- The human mind - i.e. Consciousness.
Those are the most important emergent systems that exist.
Uh huh, true - but looking for refs describing emergent biological systems
Damn, that's practically giving the whole store away.
Already done. (Read Chrichton's Prey for example)
Originally posted by ImaFungi
We can generalize though. If we are viewing one road for a week there will be many different events of traffic, different number of cars, different color cars, from different years, with people heading different places, with different personalities etc. all those details, which over time are infinitely different, are all generally limited in the fact that they can all experience and contribute to the phenomenon of traffic. Similar to the infinitely different back round story to every water molecule in the ocean, which in a moment of time happens to find itself surrounded by others heading down a river.
That is the way I see it unless you are trying to say, we cant possibly know and understand what traffic is, because we dont really know what quarks and electrons and the fundamental nature of reality is. Well yes when we set off to describe, label, or understand any phenomenon in the universe we start from a level of ignorance about the true nature of the totality, But that doesnt mean we have not become very familiar with details of levels of the constituents ( like atoms and materials) and human nature and the things we do ( like go to work, and drive cars on roads). So just because given the information that : Cars exist, this quantity of people exist that have cars and go to work, cars drive on roads, this many of people work between these hours, along the road these are all the paths to all businesses, this amount of people arent going to work but driving to attend to personal business... Just because we wouldnt be able to predict who would be driving when and where, (even though that information exists and is knowable because every person involved with this event knows when and where they are driving) doesnt mean we cant know just about every reason why traffic occurs, how it occurs,and what traffic is. I feel like I have a good grasp on those things about traffic. Traffic is an emergent system, I am an emergent system, I think I know a bit about the nature of traffic.
This relates to quantum mechanics. Because the universes tiniest bits compute in a quantity unimaginable and at a time rate on imaginable, it is impossible for us to predict a large amount of these actions, we use probability. But as chaotic as it seems, there are limits, and thus even though quantum nature may be fundamental (im not sure) it has birthed a stable classical macro universe, which we are a part of and can know and become familiar with.
edit on 16-2-2013 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by ImaFungi
like how could the cell of a human body (if conscious) know all about the human body? how could the cell of a human body know all about the town the human body is in? how could the cell of the human body know all about the planet? etc.etc.
In other words, could something relatively extremely smart and sophisticated and capable, create a consciousness that is capable of knowing something and anything, and has the drive to do so, but can this consciousness deduce or comprehend "everything"... is it physically possible? or is the consciousness eternally at a disadvantage and has know hope of actual true knowledge of the reality it is in and of?
Originally posted by NorEaster
Originally posted by ImaFungi
We can generalize though. If we are viewing one road for a week there will be many different events of traffic, different number of cars, different color cars, from different years, with people heading different places, with different personalities etc. all those details, which over time are infinitely different, are all generally limited in the fact that they can all experience and contribute to the phenomenon of traffic. Similar to the infinitely different back round story to every water molecule in the ocean, which in a moment of time happens to find itself surrounded by others heading down a river.
That is the way I see it unless you are trying to say, we cant possibly know and understand what traffic is, because we dont really know what quarks and electrons and the fundamental nature of reality is. Well yes when we set off to describe, label, or understand any phenomenon in the universe we start from a level of ignorance about the true nature of the totality, But that doesnt mean we have not become very familiar with details of levels of the constituents ( like atoms and materials) and human nature and the things we do ( like go to work, and drive cars on roads). So just because given the information that : Cars exist, this quantity of people exist that have cars and go to work, cars drive on roads, this many of people work between these hours, along the road these are all the paths to all businesses, this amount of people arent going to work but driving to attend to personal business... Just because we wouldnt be able to predict who would be driving when and where, (even though that information exists and is knowable because every person involved with this event knows when and where they are driving) doesnt mean we cant know just about every reason why traffic occurs, how it occurs,and what traffic is. I feel like I have a good grasp on those things about traffic. Traffic is an emergent system, I am an emergent system, I think I know a bit about the nature of traffic.
You're still missing the point of what an emergent system is. The primary identifying characteristic of an emergent system is something that can't be progressively linked to any contributive system's primary or ancillary identifying characteristic. This the thing about emergent systems that intrigues physicists. The author of the book that I linked in the OP seemed to see traffic as a really good example of an emergent system, and even though I kind of like the example of a mob, traffic does work if you understand what it is that emerges when traffic comes into emergent existence. I did explain it properly, and while you can pick over the pieces within any instance of traffic, the fact that it is an emergent system isn't affected by your deciding to do so.
This relates to quantum mechanics. Because the universes tiniest bits compute in a quantity unimaginable and at a time rate on imaginable, it is impossible for us to predict a large amount of these actions, we use probability. But as chaotic as it seems, there are limits, and thus even though quantum nature may be fundamental (im not sure) it has birthed a stable classical macro universe, which we are a part of and can know and become familiar with.
edit on 16-2-2013 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)
I think that you may want to check out that book I linked to in the OP. Emergent systems are not what you envision them to be. I don't think that I can adequately describe what they to your requirement if the posts I've put up so far in this thread didn't help. They are pretty mysterious, and are a challenge for physicists. Especially those who resist acknowledging the presence and influence of information within the material realm. The emergent system may ultimately prove the symbiotic relationship between matter and information as physical and determinant.