Every possible reason for gun ownership addressed and countered

reply to post by shaneslaughta

If that scenario plays out like i think, and i hope it doesn't....it would spiral the world economy over the tipping point that we are so precariously balanced ATM. That could cause total chaos as starving, unemployed, homeless people across the us start looting and pillaging to stay alive, stay warm, and safe. We will need to protect ourselves from out own Countrymen.

True unfortunately,

You know the scariest thing about that for me, the USA is like Australia in that it is a net producer and exporter of food yet if the economy went to hell for some reason we would not have access to this food because someone wouldnt be able to make money from it. Its a sad world we live in.
While I agree with what your saying its still comes under the "I want guns coz everyone else has them" banner

Star for you

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


Its not because i want one....its because i fear that i will be stuck bringing a knife to a gunfight.
That in its self warrants my owning a few.

reply to post by grownshow

This argument has been around every since the revolutionary war when many people wondered if a crapily armed and trained american army could ever prevail against the british empire. In modern times it's has evolved into "how can a rifle take out planes/tanks/missles ect". The modern version is one that i used to believe but modern military history has demonstrated multiple times that its actually hard to supress even small populations who are determined to fight back and get weapons. There is a huge NATO coalition in Afghanistan which is approximately the size of california and over a decade later they are still struggling to keep the taliban from getting weapons and fighting professional nato forces. Before us, the soviet union tried and failed. If the combined might of NATO can't completely disarm malnurished afghani's, its a bit of a stretch to assume the United States alone could do it to a country WAY bigger that afghanistan. The united states civilian populace if far more saturated in weapons than afghanistan was. There are approximately 90 guns per 100 people here. Even if only 0.5% of those weapons escaped confiscation, that is still millions of people who would fight back. The assumption that a populace will hand in weapons and be easily domesticated has led to massive military failures and its not something the elites of this world ever seem to learn from.

Good rebuttal to that point

So is that your personal reason for owning a gun? so that you can fight the Government when the time comes?

I just read that and realised it sounds a bit snarky, not intended that way and Im genuinely curious

reply to post by CosmicCitizen

Only 5% of colonialist took part in the Revolutionary War - a very small minority (but enough to secure their collective freedom from Great Britain). I doubt that even that many would be actively involved if there was a new Revolutionary War or General Rebellion against the Federal Government or another Civil War. Most people would not take the advice of Jesus himself when he told one of his disciples to "sell (their) cloak and buy a sword." Luke 22:36. Most people dont even hunt and of course that is a well regulated sport (licenses, certain dates only, etc). Most gun owners are not big collectors either. And certainly the criminal element (for which a gun is a tool of the trade) is a definite minority as well. For the vast majority the reason for owning a gun is personal and family safety, security and peace of mind.

I have never used a gun on anyone but we have had to call the police several times for prowlers on our property at night (quasi rural) and there have been home invasions in our area. A gun is a real deterrent (and the "blacker and scarier" the better). I once thwarted what I believe was an attempted armed robbery of my person by subconciously reaching into my overcoat breast pocket as if to access a concealed handgun. I didn't have a gun but was expecting a confrontation (as I was approached late at night coming off of the El Train steps in Chicago and was reaching for my card case)....the guy took 1 more step towards me then quickly turned away (from 2 paces).

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


It's the same rebuttal we've all been making. I am glad he articulated it in a more respectful way ao you were mor accepting in an argument that destroyed your original point.

I hope you have learned some history lessons here, expanded your mind, and realize we all have reasons to have guns. You have been beaten by your government to not feel the want for a gun to protect yourself but imagine if you did have that desire? The feeling that your government is depriving you of owning and enjoying something people in another country are free to enjoy.

Guns are neat, and fun. Sure they get into the wrong hands, but so do forks.learning to assemble, smith, and care for a gun is a good thing. Especially when you are holding something smooth annd high quality.

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


do you support the legalisation of drugs?

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by IkNOwSTuff

 

You're a student incapable of in depth thought.. typical. Change majors, quick.

A history majory that can't understand how an armed populace could bring down a military? Why go to school if you can't pay attention.

LOL a long time out of school now.

I understand and can quote examples of armed population taking on invaders just as well as you do but as stated I dont think it will come to that, do you? do you own a gun to fight your government?
Is this a major concern for you guys? If so why not have a peaceful revolution before it gets to that point?

Warfare is changing, with all the toys and technology available these days do you really think you would stand a chance?
The military comes for you, you and your buddies go bush and decide to wage guerrilla war, the first ambush goes great and you slip back into the wilderness, The satellites have been watching with their high res and heat seeking cameras, you head back to your base/supplies/comrades, 10 minutes later before you even know whats happening a drone has blown you and everything around for 500 mts into a smoking crater. Game over!!!!

You would have no supply lines as the can monitor eveything from space, you couldnt communicate as you would be tracked.
Nowadays if your military turns on you your screwed, no ifs, hows, buts or whys, SCREWED!!!!!
The technological advantage is to great, at no stage in history has the gap been so big so Im not sure previous examples have any relevance other than to give false hope

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff

What about the jews in germany or in the polish ghettos? Did they not have the right to self defense? What about the millions of Russians and Chinese who died after Communist takeovers to their country from within? Is it a coincidence that the first thing dictatorial and potentially genocidal regimes do is confiscate the firearms? Is it not true that these same governments have used the concept of "false flag" attacks to secure popular support for their actions. Remember the "ends justifies the means" when it comes to executing false flag attacks on your own people.

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

6) Then why not ban knives, cars, alcohol etc etc they kill people too!!!

Guns and swords serve only 1 purpose, to kill!!!
Im not sure if gun advocates realise how ridiculous they sound when they say ban cars or alcohol, to be honest I dont even feel those comments are worth addressing, knives however are worth talking about.

Oh right, you don't "FEEL" they are worth talking about, even though you KNOW and I KNOW, the damage that alcohol abuse does vastly outweighs the damage that legal gun ownership does?

Look at the murders, rapes, assaults and abuse carried out as a result of the abuse of alcohol- look at the lives blighted, kids taken into care, raped, murdered etc

MASSIVELY more victims than through legal gun ownership- yet you "feel" it is not worth talking about, as it does not fit your narrow narrative

Yes, it is my constitutional right, and yes I will own whatever I want to own. I also collect guns, due to either their beauty, rarity, make or model.
Yes, I hunt. I hunt small game and large game, with gun and bow depending on what I am hunting and what season it is in, and guess what, I hunt for food.
Yes, It is for protection. Thieves and criminals don't follow laws, hence the criminal part. I also maintain all mine under lock and key.
You are dead wrong on the part about killing a lot of people easily with guns. Its easiest with explosives or gas, simple stuff that can be bought at hardware stores and used in that manner. A gun is not only a weapon to kill, but based on the intentions of the person holding it can be used to protect. Like all weapons it is the intent of the person holding the gun.
I firmly believe in gun owner responsibility and accountability for their weapons.

in 2010 8775 people were killed by a firearm of some sort. Compare that with 10,228 killed by drunk driving. Statistics are fun, based on what you try to prove you can prove anything huh. Oh, and drunks don't stay locked up as long as gun killers, and most deaths in dui related incidents are repeat offenders.

But it all boils down to one simple fact, it is our constitutional right. Once the constitution no longer is upheld, then America as a country begins to fall. Nothing stops a rapist like cold steel in the hand of their last intended victim.

I dont care about peoples respect I do however expect civility, the comment you highlighted above was a generalisation and not directed at any one member, I think most people would have seen it for the tongue in cheek comment it was and maybe even had a smirk yet you get your panties bunched up You seem to be taking this very personal, all Ive done with this thread is highlight why I think gun ownership is self defeating.

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff



Well of course I would take it very personally, I live here!!!!! You don't. I don't go around trying to change other countries laws and believe me there are a bunch out there that are questionable to say the least. In your own opening comments you stated that you insist on people being civil etc, or else they would be passed up the chain of command and recommended banning etc, yet you yourself are throwing comments out such as I quoted so please you go back and re read your op. Generally people in this country that legally own guns respect them, handle them with care, store them responsibly and by your insinuation that they can't be trusted with a pair of plastic scissors, yes hits a nerve with many of us. It's comments like that that don't give your thread much support and shows where your line of thought is (juvenile) in my opinion. Nothing personal just the way I see it. But I will agree on one thing though, the reference to the redneck's and full on gun nuts sadly is just another side of the coin like with any other person who collects things, some people do go way overboard and are ignorant in every sense of the word....... But in our country you have to take the good with the bad else things fall out of balance and one side starts controlling the whole thing.

reply to post by CosmicCitizen

All of this gun control talk makes me want to run for office but it is too late for this cycle....besides who wants to be in the Capital when "they" engineer a Reichstag event to set up martial law and the absorption of the legislative branch by the executive!

reply to post by tnhiker

And total vehicular deaths (not just from drunk driving) is approximately 50,000 per year!!!!!

reply to post by OneisOne

Every time I read one of your points, that very first point you made rang out in my head. It just made all the reasoning behind your points hollow, making it feel like they were just being bent to serve the purpose of that opening line. I'm not going to dig on you for not being American. No snide remarks. But, you need to understand your culture and our culture are two different things.

I included that so it couldnt be used against me.

To be honest I dont care if you guys have guns or not, as alot of people like to point out its not my country and I dont live there so it doesnt really affect me, It just upsets me when I see what are basically contradictions in peoples reasoning for wanting guns.

I do understand its ingrained in your culture but as stated in the OP some cultures accept Female circumcision, some accept men eating themselves to death a being fat is seen as attractive, culture is a crazy thing and when your a part of one you usually cannot see any faults in it, even if every single person worldwide who isnt a part of it sees it as foolish and self defeating in the face of all reason and evidence they will stick to it.

I think thats the case with America and its guns

A few months ago, someone broke into my home, while I was sleeping. I believe the individual is alive today, because I own firearms. I confronted the intruder, at gunpoint, and requested he lay flat on the ground. He complied, and waited on law enforcement to arrive.

Had I not been in possesion of a firearm, I would have hidden in the shadows, awaiting my oppurtunity to bludgeon his skull with the nearest heavy, blunt object. I would never want to do that, but I am more than capable, if I am in survival mode.

Because I had a firearm, the intruder to my home, was allowed to choose life or death.

Originally posted by mamabeth
You should know anytime anyone breathes that 'they' want to take
our guns away...tempers will flare,our voices will scream: never,out
of our cold,dead hands!
It is an american thing and I am a proud gun owner and an american.

LOL hey Mama, long time no see

So why do you own a gun? any specific reason or just because you can?

reply to post by tamusan

Good story and paradoxical: the potential for death (gun) gives life.

Originally posted by Jeremiah65
You hate guns...you feel you have wisdom to rain down on us ignorant Americans...well gee...thanks. I am sure I could find something similar to that opinion on the bottom of my shoe....I guess it depends on where I carelessly step.

We do not need your help...we do not need your opinions. I can pretend we appreicate your opinions but we don't. We were there to bail almost every other country out at some point or another and the best way they can express true gratitude is to mind their own business. If your country has never reeived a dollar in foreign aid...then feel free to add your opinion...if it has...then you need to shut up...you have no voice here.

to make a long story short ...oh sheep of the big softie world...





...we do not need or want your help.

edit on 12/17/2012 by Jeremiah65 because: (no reason given)

LMAO such virulence

Not offering to help anyone and as stated in the first paragraph of my OP Im entitled to give my opinion and dont care if you want it or not, no one forced you to read it so why bother.

Im Australian and I dont believe you guys have ever "bailed us out" and we most definitely havent accepted any foreign aid from you.
We have however fought by your side in every single war youve engaged in as a nation and are the only ones who have done so!!! So how about a little less arrogance and perhaps even a bit of respect when speaking about my country. I have not put America down once in this thread but since you didnt actually mention anything I said and just basically had what amounted to a childish tantrum Im guessing you didnt even bother to read the OP or the discussion that has followed.

If you would like to contribute in a constructive way to the thread please feel free, otherwise let the adults talk

reply to post by kozmo

If you are a history major, you have a very limited view of history - or perhaps received for poor marks for your studies.
Who defeated the British in the Colonies, an organized army or a rag-tag bunch of farmers? Who defeated the Russians in Afghanistan? An organized army consisting of helicopters and tanks or rag-tag army or farmers? Who defeated the Bolsheviks in Russia? An organized army or a rag-tag bunch of farmers? Who defeated Catherine the Great? An organized army or a rag-tag bunch of farmers? Look at this Extensive list of revolutions and rebellions and learn from history. Do you know what MOST of them had in common? They were a simple people raging against tyrannical rule which was supported by superior armies! PUH-leeeeeeeeeeeeez! Again, any other representation of these FACTS are a disingenuous attempt to support an illogical and fallacious argument.

The only one of the above examples that even comes close to being relevant is Russia VS Afghanistan and that was over 30 years ago, you are aware of how far technology has come I assume.

Another big factor in these rebellions was supply lines, invading armies were able to be cut off from supplies and troops via guerrilla war. Communication was also an issue.
With Aircraft this is no longer an issue for an army and if your military choose to take you out it could have a drone above you in what.... 5-10 min.

Terrain also plays a major part when it comes to Afghanistan, sure you could lay low in the Rockies or Yellowstone or where ever but to actually take on the military with your guns!!!!!
Your delusional if you think it would end in anything but every person who took up arms death.

Nowadays when fighting governments with resources like the USA the only thing we can learn from armed resistance in history is false hope.
Sorry

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


Ah so, history major, but no degree in history. We own guns for a multitude of reasons, least of which is fighting a military, be it our own or an invading force. However if that were to happen we would be prepared. You are ting to make it seem as if we hold on to guns of an unlikely reason, but that's not correct, but it makes you kind of ann ass.

As for revolution, the peaceful one is already on. Did you think it was Dr. Paul's banner for nno reason. The thinking people are voting third parties. We are a republic uunder the thumb of a bunch of corporatists. Right now we are doing all we can to break the left/right cycle. No one is talking about armed revolutionn, but if they started killing americans , if things weren't going the way these politicians wanted, it is possible.

As for me. I never said whether or not I own a gun. If I did it would be for my personal enjoyment and to protect myself and family, from whhatever.

Stop being a douche. That is what you are doing by asking people if they own a gun in case of rebellion, douche. Also your fantasy about war here is just that fantasy. As has been stated before if the government used planes or drones or any of that against the population, rebellion or not, they would be done.