WTC destruction, the Leftover candidates, Pro&Contra Arguments.

reply to post by spooky24


The data we're using is the physical record spooky24, or what actually took place in terms of the actual occurrence of events and phenomenon under observation.

If there were eye and video witnesses to a murder, but somehow the body was not recovered, or the gun, the perp could still be convicted.

These are historical data points that we're examining.

If, according to all phenomenon and the laws of physics, it's proven that the buildings were brought down with explosives, and that the OS cannot be accepted, ie: as a gravity, pancaking collapse - then history and the court of public opinion must and will, eventually record what took place, regardless of the OS or that which has been promulgated by the 9/11 Commission and the NIST, which in light of the evidence and the proof, in hindsight, were quite obviously involved in a terrible cover-up of what actually took place, which involves a type of complicity after the fact.

These events and phenomenon, being the actual first hand physical record itself as to what occurred would certainly be admissible in a court of law, like the video of a crime in action.

I suppose even the devil must have an advocate or a defender, but what a role to play..


Just for the record, the truth about what happened on 9/11 doesn't indict the whole US government and all of its workers. Each person's activity or involvement would have to be assessed, whether in the perpetration of the crime itself, or in it's willful cover-up, with awareness and knowledge.

which in light of the evidence and the proof, in hindsight, were quite obviously involved in a terrible cover-up of what actually took place, which involves a type of complicity after the fact.

No No No I have stated my position. You are never going to understand that America could care less what you think evidence is-nor does anyone care about what you consider proof.

Post something that could be presented to a Grand Jury for an indictment. Nothing else matters.

reply to post by spooky24


Since there was no real independent investigation, and since the perps are unlikely in the extreme to end up in the dock of a courtroom, regardless of the evidence who's cumulative weight is impressive, then you're damn right it matters both in regards to the court of public opinion, the work of historians the world over, as well as in regards to what i would call "integration" in the form of an internal, introspective inquiry capable of informing all future policy in relation to matters of "security", because clearly, the fundamental problem as it relates to what really happened on 9/11, although there were patsies apparently willing to do harm, isn't the threat of terrorism from without, or homegrown Jahadists or malcontents within the homeland, but instead the threat posed by elements of the MIC & Intelligence Apparatus and their obvious willingness to engage in false flag, black-op, psy-ops capable of making victims of innocent, every day, average American citizens who are, at the most fundamental level no different from you or me as they are every man and woman.

"It was the stone that was rejected by the builders (the little man, the "throwaway"), that became the keystone."

Those who knowingly and willfully cover up the true nature of such an atrocity, may want to think twice, although in your case, given your JOB, perhaps, maybe, you can be given a pass.

But to try to frame it in the context of the courtroom while claiming that nothing that isn't physically present must be thrown out and ignored, is a false premise.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter if the perps seemingly got away with it, according to the judicial system. The evidence is still informative, and valid, and cannot be ignored on the basis of your argument, and you know it because you're smart and well informed.

spooky24

which in light of the evidence and the proof, in hindsight, were quite obviously involved in a terrible cover-up of what actually took place, which involves a type of complicity after the fact.

No No No I have stated my position. You are never going to understand that America could care less what you think evidence is-nor does anyone care about what you consider proof.

Post something that could be presented to a Grand Jury for an indictment. Nothing else matters.

The official story can't be presented in a court of law so why should the alternative theory's have to go through a standard the OS doesn't have too?

Sremmos80

The official story can't be presented in a court of law

What a lot of crap - Why do you ignore the fact that it HAS already been used in a court of law.... and the terrorist was convicted on the evidence....

Why do truthers ignore reality and push silly stories?

reply to post by hellobruce


That would have been the charges brought on by the federal government right? The one with all the access to the "evidence" that was collected? What I am getting at is a third party can't use the commission report as evidence of what happened that day. I'm sure the fed didn't use the report, more they used the "hard evidence" they collected and then put in said report. But if a third party wanted to quote said report, I'm pretty sure that gets thrown out right away since it would only be a statement of the events that happened.

I think this is of importance for my exchange of thoughts with NewAgeMan in this thread too :
www.abovetopsecret.com...

hellobruce

Sremmos80

The official story can't be presented in a court of law

What a lot of crap - Why do you ignore the fact that it HAS already been used in a court of law.... and the terrorist was convicted on the evidence....

Why do truthers ignore reality and push silly stories?

So you tell me i am full of it but then don't answer to my response?

Sremmos80
So you tell me i am full of it but then don't answer to my response?

I did answer your question - what happened on 9/11 HAS been used in a court to convict someone, truther fantasies have not been used in any court.... if they were bought up in a court they would be shown to be wrong.

hellobruce

Sremmos80
So you tell me i am full of it but then don't answer to my response?

I did answer your question - what happened on 9/11 HAS been used in a court to convict someone, truther fantasies have not been used in any court.... if they were bought up in a court they would be shown to be wrong.

Lol you can't even keep your story straight. We are talking about the report, not what happened that day...
I understand that some one has had charges brought and been convicted based on what they found, you said I was full of it when i said the report can't be used in a court of law.
"Truther Fantasies" haven't been to court because it hasn't been allowed, but many have backed many of the claims they make and don't mind showing all the numbers, unlike the reports we are presented with.


The report wasn't used in the case, the "evidence" that was collected was. The same evidence that is locked away to all eyes except for the alphabet boys that were to incompetent to stop the attack but are if full charge of figuring out who did it.
But the actual wording in the report does not carry any legal weight as it is just a statement of what the "investigations" found.

If the report does carry legal weight and there is admitted incompetence that day, then why has no one been charged with criminal negligence?

hellobruce

Sremmos80
So you tell me i am full of it but then don't answer to my response?

I did answer your question - what happened on 9/11 HAS been used in a court to convict someone, truther fantasies have not been used in any court.... if they were bought up in a court they would be shown to be wrong.

If it went to court today....
The official theory would be laughed at.
Most of us fell for the lies that were fed to us by politicians and the media at the time.
But we`ve had over twelve years to research the event and the Official theory comes nowhere near to what happened.

Sremmos80
"Truther Fantasies" haven't been to court because it hasn't been allowed,

Who exactly has not allowed it, and when and where?

but many have backed many of the claims they make

But truthers make so many claims, such as

mini nuclear weapons were used
beam weapons were used
cruise weapons were used
airliners carrying pods firing missiles were used
no planes were actually used, they used holograms instead
explosives were used
explosives inside the planes was used
nanoo nanoo thermite was used
special reinforced planes were used
military planes were used

etc etc.

now all these are claims made by truthers, and yet they are unable to show any evidence for any of them. No wonder truthers do not want to take such nonsense to court!

hellobruce

Sremmos80
"Truther Fantasies" haven't been to court because it hasn't been allowed,

Who exactly has not allowed it, and when and where?

but many have backed many of the claims they make

But truthers make so many claims, such as

mini nuclear weapons were used
beam weapons were used
cruise weapons were used
airliners carrying pods firing missiles were used
no planes were actually used, they used holograms instead
explosives were used
explosives inside the planes was used
nanoo nanoo thermite was used
special reinforced planes were used
military planes were used

etc etc.

now all these are claims made by truthers, and yet they are unable to show any evidence for any of them. No wonder truthers do not want to take such nonsense to court!

Man did i say all of that in this thread? I don't remember any of that. As I stated that the official story via reports (911 com/nist) can not be used in the court of law, you said I was full of it and claimed one case.
I let you know that in said case, the "hard evidence" collected is what was used to convict him.
The fact that no evidence will be released prevents any outside (Truther) investigation from taking place which would lead to said court cases, until an outside investigation is allowed, no court case can be brought up.
I in no way, shape or form said that people have proof for all those claims you have listed, that is crazy
Watch the 9-11 is the new pearl harbor series if you want to hear experts and professionals dispute the story.
If you are so sound in your believe it won't change a thing for you, but before you say nobody has any type of evidence or proof, try looking at what people have first.
You might just learn something

Stanley Hilton - Fraud or Fact?? Does he have proof of 9/11 inside job?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

This is a one page thread from 9 years ago, however, some posters in there, pro & contra the official story, wrote some very well crafted things in there, it's worth the read, it's just 16 posts.
All the single stars are mine, I highly appreciate intelligent debate.

Forget by the way about that lawyer Stanley Hilton, he did more damage to the victims families cases than all the OS "one-liner" believers could do combined by posting snarly comments about the families intentions and ultimate ordeal.

This is the far best evidence video on the www, that shows the ONSET of the WTC towers collapses.
Now what exactly caused that ONSET, that NIST didn't want to touch with a 10 foot flagpole?
In my opinion, we can make a short list of possible causes, and remove them one by one, after determination of the logical and illogical causes.

9/11 Early ejection of building materials Freeze Frame evidence of controlled demolition :
www.youtube.com...


Just moments before the whole floor gave way, a whole pack of aluminum cladding strips, attached to Vierendeel outer wall components, weighting metric tons, suddenly moves to the left, as one entity, like from this :
|||||||||||||||||||||||||................||||||||||||

to this :
||||||||||||||||/////////................||||||||||||

Please explain with or without general engineering skills, why, but specifically HOW this sudden movement took place. Which building part could put enough force at work to cause that huge Vierendeel component to deform like that?

1. Note that there was a huge gaping hole to the right of that suddenly a meter at least, left-moving cladding pack.!
2. Note also that you first have to determine which side we are looking at, and how the floor slabs thus were attached to the outer wall at that spot we see in the video.
3. Note that I once explained the same floor slab construction layout, and thus send the NIST explanation for the sagging floor trusses they wrote in their NIST report, to the fairytale heaven. They wrote such a sagged truss was visible in one of their photos, where some kind of dangling long thin strip was sagging in front of a row of windows. Easily explained by me as in fact being a sagging lowered ceiling aluminum side strip + still attached ceiling.
Notably on one of the Tower sides where the floor slabs WITH their underlaying trusses, were laid out perpendicular to the outer wall Vierendeel components and thus also under the outer wall windows. That sagging something in that photo from NIST could NEVER have been a floor-truss.!

I believe that the importance of that observation slipped past all the readers attention span, while however it was their (NIST) main motive evidence to bring in that crazy floor-trusses sagging theory, as their main evidence HOW the global collapses started.

It's NOTABLY the core of their whole theory, trusses sagging from the heat of office fires, then pulling the outer walls inward, oh wait they said the expansion of the steel of the trusses pushed the outer wall first outwards, oh wait, they also said the expanding trusses broke the bolds in the seats welded on the inner core column brace beams and let the trusses walk off those seats, fall downward and then pulled the outer wall they were still attached to inward (why did those not break off their seats), oh wait, that miraculously ONLY happened inside that pesky little WTC 7 Tower........But seemingly not in the Twin towers? Same fires...same heat?....same forces? Not the same duration of those raging fires?...

An office fire lasts for about half an hour they said in the Final WTC 7 report.
Before that, the fire jumped already to the next room, and the heat died out.

How on earth those leap-frogging fires could have ever heated the above trusses so evenly that they expanded EVERY truss on each floor that burned over the same distance, causing the bolds in the seats at BOTH ends to break, according to NIST, is beyond my imagination.
Let's also not forget that all trusses were certified fireproofed...

Knowing that at two opposite sides of the Twin towers the concrete-on-thin-steel-boards floor slabs, were laid out perpendicular to the outer wall Vierendeel components (3 thick steel columns, three +++ per component), like this (from above) :

| . . | . . | . . |
| . . | . . | . . |
| . . | . . | . . |
| . . | . . | . . |
|+ + +|+ + +|+ +

And at the two other opposite outer wall sides the floor slabs were laid out parallel with the outer wall Vierendeel components, like this (from above) :

______________
. . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . .
______________
. . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . .
______________
|+ + +|+ + +|+ +

The only remaining question we have to solve is what side we are looking at in this video. Then we know what layout the floor-slabs had on this side, which we can find in the floor-plans in the NIST report. Or just Google NIST floor-plan, or WTC floor-plan, whatever.
If it was the latter, parallel layout, then what tells us that sudden left shift of that Vierendeel packet.?

Contemplate, how on earth and in heaven, could a "sagging" floor truss have ever caused that sudden left-shift event, a second before the whole top collapsed.

Now, sit and watch EVERYTHING what happens after the 1:00 / 3:42 position in the video.
Watch carefully how many explosive squibs you see spitting out of the walls. And count how many black damper sheets you see catapulting out in front of or inside those squibs.

And what color the squib clouds are. What do you think, WHITE water-vapor, formed as a side product in those explosive chemical reactions?

WTC SMOKING GUN PROOF OF EXPLOSIVE DEMOLITION CHARGES



Ask yourself why, if you stubbornly want to belief the official-fires did it after plane impacts-explanation, why are those squibs not filled with BLACK smoke and soot from all those FIRES. If it were compressed air squibs, like I hear you thinking, they would be BLACK smoke filled.

Sarcasm alert :
What the heck, they screwed me all these years.
Now I'm getting really mad. More ammo, fill up the SUV, feed the Nav :
WASHINGTON.

Let's ROLL.....

Title : 9/11 North Tower Collapse Shaking 12 Seconds Before Collapse - Pulverization of Steel!

www.youtube.com...


Video by Etienne Sauret.

It's kinda sad and Machiavelli worthy, the best and longest, sharpest view of the still standing spire and how it oscillated and then broke somewhere deeper, out of sight for the camera, and then sunk straight down while still perfectly in one piece sinking, no "dustification" of steel whatsoever to be seen, is posted with those last 3 words attached in its title.

There is dust letting loose or shaken off, that's all the dust there is.

LaBTop

What the heck, they screwed me all these years.
Now I'm getting really mad. More ammo, fill up the SUV, feed the Nav :
WASHINGTON.

Let's ROLL.....

What the heck was that supposed to mean..?!

If it means what i think it might, DON'T DO IT.

You might need to some help. The honey pot isn't a good place the live - live LIFE and choose LIFE.

And whatever you do, don't you dare hurt anyone or undermine the movement of the truth.

I find your workings and approach to be somewhat unstable. I can't tall half the time if you're really trying to expose the truth, or make 9/11 sceptics appear to be crazy.

Dude, relax and take it easy. It's not all on you.

Best Regards,

NAM

My friend, I will clear your own misconception up for you :

Ask yourself why, if you stubbornly want to belief the official-fires did it after plane impacts-explanation, why are those squibs not filled with BLACK smoke and soot from all those FIRES.
If it were compressed air squibs, like I hear you thinking, they would be BLACK smoke filled.

[ extra text ]
But they were white smoke filled.......And that should got him in his SUV.....hot headed as he is. Now that he understands that only explosives expel white smoke in squibs.

Compressed air from pancaking still intact floors does not reach 9,000 m/s particle speeds, not by far. Only HE cutter charges can do that. Or TB's, at 20,000 m/s at ignition time. All of them will bleed off, more or less faster. So do not think that those speeds are describing the speed of the squib after it spit out of that windows. David Chandler measured that for us and came to a figure of +/- 70 mph particle speed, which is still unbelievable high for particles that originated from deep inside.
And no floor would have been airtight after another PACK of floors was landed on them to "cake" them. All of them would have been as leaky as a straw basket.[ /-text ]

Sarcasm alert :
What the heck, they screwed me all these years.
Now I'm getting really mad. More ammo, fill up the SUV, feed the Nav :
WASHINGTON.

Let's ROLL.....
edit on 25/1/14 by LaBTop because: For NAM : it's called SARCASM, my friend.

I meant to try to let you imagine :
A virtual guns owning far right patriotic hard & hot headed American ATS reader, probably former military too, who at last understands that they got him all these years by the nuts with all their psychological operated FOX channels, debunker sites, TV figure-heads and whatever more they could throw at him (or you).
Like f.ex. former military men and women, in all kinds of more (TV), or less (WWW forums) influential positions, constantly pushing his (and your) patriotic buttons.

All is well, LT/



PS :

www.abovetopsecret.com...
Best Regards,

NAM aka Winston Smith.

edit on 30-12-2013 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)

Are you my years ago disappeared pen-friend at ATS and StudyOf911, the very intelligent and logically thinking member/moderator formerly known as " wecomeinpeace " who used that screen name at our snug little StudyOf911 forum? Really?

Read this post to understand what lead me to post again after 5 months :

www.abovetopsecret.com...



Waypastvne, that's even in June 2014 still an interesting photo you posted in June 2011.

What if I explain those ripped-off welds and steel truss seats by telling you that those exterior columns (Vierendeel triplets) were blasted away horizontally outwards by the enormous sudden pressure of a then top-secret explosive, on the whole steel surface and windows of one or more floors. All around the buildings.
Remember, all office floors were mostly open space, with sometimes thin separation walls inside them. Which would be blasted away immediately by any TB exploded in such enormous office space.

Caused by let us assume, thermobaric explosives, f.ex. hidden inside the lowered ceilings space. Which TB's have a starting velocity of their gaseous explosion fronts of over 20,000 meter per second, far more than HE, high explosives (about 9,000 m/s max).
But since TB's are expanding gas clouds that ignite from a center point or points, that front-velocity bleeds off quite fast over a distance of several tenths of meters, caused by the compressing air it has to push in front of its own explosion front.

However, TB's are perfect to hideously demolish unwanted buildings, since their explosive gases leave no measurable signs behind. Their "footprints" dissipate into the open air nearly instantaneously.

In fact, these TB's blow up floors like you blow up a balloon, only incredibly faster, lightning fast in fact. And it looks like a "banana-peel" effect, depositing all exterior panels and columns outside the perimeters of the towers. While at the same time disintegrating the core columns and cross beams holding those together, probably assisted by some real heavy TB's hidden in the elevator shafts inside those 47 WTC core columns.

Don't you ask yourself why not one of those truss seats shown in your posted photo, indicate a bending down motion?
Also known as the bending effect on all horizontal connections after a real pancaking occurs.

They are clearly to see, all cleanly sheared/ripped off from their welds (which boundaries are the weakest molecular bonds points in a welded steel connection).
Just as if they were ripped apart in the horizontal plain, and not as if they were bend down first and then broke more or less in a vertical direction, by an impacting mass of already pancaked floors on top of the next floor.
Inside the huge "square-donut formed" floor space in-between the exterior columns and the interior core columns space.

Which impact would cause that whole floor space to buckle down first, thus pulling the exterior panels via their truss seats first INSIDE/inwards the building perimeter.

But we saw all Vierendeel triplets been exploded away, OUTSIDE of the perimeters of those WTC buildings. At ridiculous high speeds, measured by David Chandler. See for those 70 miles/hr speeds his videos in my huge evidence post in my sig-links.


Which also explains why we see those rows of explosive dust clouds spitting out all shattered windows circumventing the whole 4 sides of both WTC towers at one, two or three floor-levels heights.

Seen as explosive rings traveling down all around the exterior just in front of the huge demolition-front dust clouds in the first six or so seconds of the WTC collapses, which got lost eventually to all camera sights when the dust cloud got too thick and enormous.

ANOK replied partly to your post with these remarks :

ANOK : Truss seats could have been compromised with another energy source that is not being considered. By itself it does not prove pancake collapse, if it did then NIST would have included it in their report, but even they are not stupid enough to take the whitewash that far.

Which energy source I expect to have been ThermoBaric explosives.
They fit all observations snugly.

Then ANOK pointed to the NIST FAQ in this follow-up post, where NIST concluded that collapse initiation started with buckling floor trusses (the structures holding up the floor panels between exterior and interior columns). Caused by FIRE. Under them.
Which deformed those trusses, let them sag down and that caused them to shorten considerably, and thus those Vierendeel triplets, these trusses were connected to, were pulled INWARDS.

( wtc.nist.gov... ) Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.

Well, then why does NIST not explain to us what happened next?

The lower floors, under the initiating one, did not have fires under them, so no buckling of trusses could occur to their trusses.
What caused their Vierendeel triplets to be expelled with such an enormous force, while we in fact expected more buckling of lower floor trusses first, initiated now by falling upper floors on these trusses, and thus pulling Vierendeel triplets INWARDS again, letting those floors "fold" on top of the next one.

However, that's not what we saw happening, they all got shot OUTWARDS by excessive forces, with speeds up to 70 miles/hr. Those Vierendeel Triplets were weighing tens of tons each. But we saw whole packs of still connected to each other, Vierendeel triplets, being shot outwards.

ANOK : See they moved on to the sagging trusses hypothesis. You are a little bit out of date mate.

BTW doesn't the missing truss seats contradict the NIST claim, 'required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards'?

So when and how did the truss seats fail? That is the question there is no logical answer for.