Ok, who can prove magic exists?

Originally posted by LadyV
You are a Christian...there is absolutely no proof of any of it, yet, you believe.

I am not a Christian. I have studied world religion extensively, and I sometimes choose to argue the religionist point of view, simply because it is a fun supposition to place on the world. Sometimes I assume that the stories are real just to see the world in a fantastic way.

I am an athiest for the same reasons I don't believe in phenomena that are not documented, not witnesses, and are untestable. Or at least the tests do not produce predictable results.

You don't have to believe any of what we say although we have no reason to lie to you.

Why don't you put a little bit of research into Santeria and candle majic, I say these because it is what worked for me and try it for yourself.

I am not saying that you should ask to win the lottery or something out of realism but something simply to start with like maybe direct your energy in lighting a candle and ask the energy to return to you a new way to play the guitar or a maybe a direction of energy for an ailing family member or friend. Or even just for a day full of friendliness from everyone you meet.

Originally posted by AngelaLadyS
Here is a question for a non believer.
A person is laying in a hospital bed, dies, the doctors hook him/her to machines to keep the heart beating and the lungs working in wait for being a donor...

In the above seneiro, the person is dead but the body is being kept functional to preserve it for future harvest. If you do not believe in the metaphysical, I assume you therefore believe that the person is actualy still alive because the blood is moving and being oxygenated. Is this correct?

I come to this conclution, deducting logicaly, that you would not believe a metaphysical thing, in this case a life force, energy or spirit that lives seperate from the physical body would be in charge of the life of this body.

The body is alive, but the mind has checked out. For example, let's just say person A lost 51% of their body mass in a terrible accident (arms, legs, organs). Let's say he decides to let these body parts to be donated to person B who lost the same 51%. We consider the surviving 49% to be person A , because that is the part with the mind. The 51% in person B is now part of that person. Persona A has not been split in two in any way,

[edit on 10-22-2004 by Esoterica]

Originally posted by DeltaChaos

I am not a Christian.

I stand corrected!

EDIT...typo..had to add the "ed" onto "correct"

[edit on 10/22/2004 by LadyV]

Originally posted by AngelaLadyS
Here is a question for a non believer.
A person is laying in a hospital bed, dies, the doctors hook him/her to machines to keep the heart beating and the lungs working in wait for being a donor...

In the above seneiro, the person is dead but the body is being kept functional to preserve it for future harvest. If you do not believe in the metaphysical, I assume you therefore believe that the person is actualy still alive because the blood is moving and being oxygenated. Is this correct?

This is correct.

I come to this conclution, deducting logicaly, that you would not believe a metaphysical thing, in this case a life force, energy or spirit that lives seperate from the physical body would be in charge of the life of this body.

I don't believe that the energy within the body is metaphysical. I believe it is very real. Not a spirit, per se, but rather a very subtle resonance wave caused by the trillions of tiny electro-chemical impulses taking place in our body at all times. I believe that if there is a subtle problem, such as a sore neck, that the disturbance can cause a change in the flow of this subtle energy, which in turn causes other subtle problems.

I have studied accupressure, and I have witness to the results of that, I have used accupuncture, which produced results. I also know many people who have enjoyed the same results as I.

As far as the projection of this energy, as in Qi Gong, I'm still skeptical. I haven't seen results of anyone projecting their Qi into the world outside them.

Body energy is not a metaphysical concept. It is a physical phenomenon that will one day be scientifically explained.

And then we'll have a psychic evolution.

First, Lady V - love your answers. I always read your posts!

Maybe I can shed some light on this issue. Approximately 10 years ago, I was ill and unable to leave my house. I was tired of being sick and alone and told God (or the universe) that I was tired of not having a normal life. All I asked for was someone to love me and to be able to work again. Money, travel, luxuries did not matter. Within six months I was dating my future husband (who is my soulmate!) and two months after that I was working again. I simply asked the universe to help me with this endeavor that no other person or medication could help me with.

Now, as far as Wicca goes, I began dabbling, so to speak, about nine months ago. The first thing I learned is that you do not harm anyone! Next, whatever you put out into the universe comes back threefold. So, after a few months of reading, I was desperate to do my first spell. A few bills popped up I hadn't expected so, I decided to do a money spell. Well, being new, I did it all wrong. Instead of some wonderful windfall, I started doing the bookkeeping at work! That's how a spell can backfire - I needed the money, but the money that was crossing my hands was someone elses!

Hope this helps!

[edit on 10/22/2004 by Lady Lily]

LL,

Could there be a possibility that God or the Universe did not conspire to heal you but that you simply set your own fate in motion? I believe that this is absolutely possible. When you get sick enough of the condition you're in, you can impose your own will upon yourself to make things happen.

What was your sickness, if you don't mind me asking? This could all be a self-fulfilling prophesy of your own making. I would be quicker to blame changes in my condition to changes in my behavior, which resulted from a deliberate change in my mindset.

Usually, when someone gets what they want, it's because they just went and got it!

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
Body energy is not a metaphysical concept. It is a physical phenomenon that will one day be scientifically explained.

Where do you believe this energy goes when we are no longer part of this life? Static?

This with the understanding that energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

Originally posted by evecasino
Where do you believe this energy goes when we are no longer part of this life? Static?

This with the understanding that energy cannot be created nor destroyed.

From the standpoint of quantum physics, no, energy cannot be created or destroyed. But that is the world of the infintitely small.

In the macro-world, a hydro-electric dam converts kinetic energy from the moving water into electricity. When the source (kinetic energy in moving water) is removed, electricity can no longer be created from it. While the energy isn't created, but converted, it still has the same effect as if it were created.

When the processes of the body that create the energy cease, then so does the energy itself. Just like electrical energy, it simply diffuses into the space around it, following the path of least resistance.

Where does the energy go? Some of it dissapates througout the body for a while, and some of it seeps out into the air, or the ground, or whatever one happens to die on.

Originally posted by DeltaChaos
When the processes of the body that create the energy cease, then so does the energy itself. Just like electrical energy, it simply diffuses into the space around it, following the path of least resistance.

Where does the energy go? Some of it dissapates througout the body for a while, and some of it seeps out into the air, or the ground, or whatever one happens to die on.

So you believe that it MAGICALLY disappears never to be recycled?

I do not want to turn this thread into a physics lesson so I'll leave it at that. You are without doubt Tenacious, maybe linked to your liking of the D.

It's been fun.

Originally posted by evecasino
So you believe that it MAGICALLY disappears never to be recycled?

I'd love a physics lesson.

So when a live wire hits the ground, and the electricity flows out of it, what happens to the elecricity? Where does it go? It dissapates into the ground. Some of it burns some worms and dirt, which is another conversion of energy. But generally, it dissapates into the environment. This is wrong?

Delta,

I had severe panic disorder that caused me to become agoraphobic and house bound. (I literally could not walk out of my house for five years!). I had been to many shrinks and therapists and tried tons of meds but I still couldn't step go very far. My husband had been living in the same apartment complex as me for about a year but he was getting over a really nasty divorce. It was like the time was just right and we got together. Maybe it would have happened even if I hadn't asked for him to come into my life, but for me it was pure magic!

Originally posted by DeltaChaos

Originally posted by AngelaLadyS
I have a question for a non believer.
What kind of proof would you need?

A simple test with repeatable results, like in science class.

Example:

You cast spell A, which causes result B, and repeat. If the results are the same consistently, then the magic spell works. Then we can work on the why.

I mean, if people are casting these spells anyway, why can't anyone watch? And why doesn't anyone report having witnessed it. If something is real, then there are people who observe it? If no one has observed it, then how can it be known to be real?



[edit on 22-10-2004 by DeltaChaos]

Originally posted by DeltaChaos

Originally posted by AngelaLadyS
I have a question for a non believer.
What kind of proof would you need?

A simple test with repeatable results, like in science class.

Example:

You cast spell A, which causes result B, and repeat. If the results are the same consistently, then the magic spell works. Then we can work on the why.

I mean, if people are casting these spells anyway, why can't anyone watch? And why doesn't anyone report having witnessed it. If something is real, then there are people who observe it? If no one has observed it, then how can it be known to be real?



[edit on 22-10-2004 by DeltaChaos]

I don't believe in 'spells' myself. But what if you could physicaly feel and watch. What if you had a terrible sinus headach and a stuffy head with alot of pressure and I were to lay my hands very gentely on your head for a moment, no pressure points touched, no pressure at all. And if you want, not even actualy touching, but just coming within a few inches of your head. You watching in the mirror. And as you watched, nothing crazy or cerimonial happening.... you could feel heat or paulsing or tingleing. Then you were able to breath freely through your nose and the pressure left your head and headack began to leave.

If this would be proof for you, this is a very easy thing to show you. Find you nearest Reiki Master. (If you live in the Midwest - let me know)

>Angela wrote:
Here is a question for a non believer.
A person is laying in a hospital bed, dies, the doctors hook him/her to machines to keep the heart beating and the lungs working in wait for being a donor...
In the above seneiro, the person is dead but the body is being kept functional to preserve it for future harvest. If you do not believe in the metaphysical, I assume you therefore believe that the person is actualy still alive because the blood is moving and being oxygenated. Is this correct?

>Your reply:
This is correct.


****REALLY ?!?!?! You really believe that a dead person who has, after death, been hooked to machines to pump oxygenated blood, constitutes a living person?
Wow. I guess I can't really continue with this line of thought with you then. I have no desire to change your mind, but I really thought you'd see that differently. I have no where to take this from here.

>Continue, Angela wrote:
I come to this conclution, deducting logicaly, that you would not believe a metaphysical thing, in this case a life force, energy or spirit that lives seperate from the physical body would be in charge of the life of this body.



>You said:
Body energy is not a metaphysical concept. It is a physical phenomenon that will one day be scientifically explained.
And then we'll have a psychic evolution.

***I'm sorry. This is unacceptable. You may choose ONE answer. You may not say on one hand that something does not exist, then, when given an example that nothing else will answer tell me that it is an exception.

DeltaChaos - I think that you are looking at Magick in the Wrong way.

Modern Technology is Magick. Calculous is Magick. Symbols are Magick. Manipulation is Magick. The Inner Workings of the Mind is Magick.
Will Power is Magick. Money is Magick. Faith can be Magical. Love IS Magical.

Overall Creativity & Productivity are also Definitely Magick!

And hey if all else Fails there is always the Magical Mushrooms!!!

[edit on 25-10-2004 by Seraphim_Serpente]

DC,

All you need to do is start investigating various healing modalities and people with telekinetic gifts.

The reason why magick cannot be repeated all the time in the laboratory is simply because it does not come from the body but from Spirit. When you are not the one who turns the juice on and off you can't have it available one-hundred percent of the time.

Uri Geller, the Israeli telekinetic, was tested extensively in the laboratory. Most of the time he did indeed have the Gift of Telekinesis. But when he was on tour the power wasn't always there for him and he was eventually exposed to have a device up his sleeve to duplicate his Gift -- when the juice wasn't there and he was expected to perform in front of a live audience.

Does that make him a fake? Hardly. It only means that he is not the source of the power. This he openly admitted. Sometimes it is there and sometimes it is not.

But Geller is only one example. There are lots of people around the world that have healing and/or telekinetic Gifts. The "illusionist" David Blaine got his own television documentary (called Street Magic) because he freaked out a bigwig television producer with his levitation trick right in the high-rise office. No wires, no devices. The reason why you don't see hundreds of magicians around the world duplicating Blaine's card teleportation and levitation tricks is simply because they are not tricks at all, as he genuinely has a Gift of Telekinesis -- which of course he won't admit to. Why should he? He became a millionaire early in life because of it. How many sleight of hand magicians in their twenties can claim that?

Funny how we never see any magician anywhere in the world duplicate Blaine�s sidewalk levitation trick. Don�t you think that if veteran illusionists that have been at it for decades more than Blaine could do the same thing, that they would flock to do so? Of course they would. The reason why they don't is simply because they can't.

I have personally witnessed a number of telekinetic/magick feats in my life.

One of them was when I saw The Amazing Kreskin live onstage at a local nightclub in the 1990s. He asked for college rings from the audience and then put them on a ringsizer. He then said, "Sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't." This was a "red flag" that he wasn't the source of the power. He made a few twists of the rings on the sizer and Voila! They were all linked together. He then took them off the sizer and had them passed around the audience so that people could confirm that their thick, college rings were indeed attached together like a chain.

Meanwhile, yours truly, as a spiritual medium and one who is very psychically sensitive to telekinetic energies, became physically ill and dizzy. Kreskin didn�t need to prove anything. I knew exactly what was happening.

Kreskin then took the rings back, put them back on the sizer, made a few more twists, and then took them off one at a time and handed them back to each applicable member of the audience.

Another person you want to check out is Sai Baba of India. He is a sexual predator of young men and boys at his ashram but decades ago, he had genuine Gifts of magick and telekinesis that blew millions of people away. Pilgrims would come back from his ashram with this glazed look over their face. A plethora of books and videos have been written about this guy. If he was only a sleight of hand phony he would not have literally thousands of people show up at his ashram on a daily basis. His gifts have lessened through the years because he has abused the privilege.

However, back around the mid Twentieth Century, he was phenomenal. They used to refer to Baba as �The Christ of India� because he could duplicate every miracle attributed to Jesus of Nazareth.

One example...

Crowds outside his ashram would be given a bowl of rice, candy, whatever, to pass around. People would take handfuls of the stuff and the bowl literally would not empty! There are credible witnesses that confirmed this.

Another example...

There was the case when Sai Baba told his chef at his ashram that he was going to take his entourage for a walk, that he shouldn't cook anything, and to go with them. The ashram was abandoned. Then they came back to the kitchen to find steaming, hot food in the cafeteria style trays! No cook, no caterer, no people anywhere to prepare it!

Sai Baba also has been known to perform many healings and to create candy as well as small objects for people, like rings and other items of jewelry. He would walk up to a devotee and say, "Who do you worship?" They might say, "Jesus" and he would wave his hand in the air and come up with a cross on a necklace. Sleight of hand? Maybe. But how about when he creates a ring for someone, they put it on, tell him that it doesn�t fit right, and then, get this: Baba touches the ring on the person�s finger and it instantly becomes the right size! Sleight of hand? I highly doubt it. The man had a genuine telekinetic/magickal Gift.

The world if full of minor miracles of magick and telekinesis. You only have to do the research, be objective, and keep your eyes and ears open to learn of them.




[edit on 23-10-2004 by Paul_Richard]

Originally posted by AngelaLadyS
****REALLY ?!?!?! You really believe that a dead person who has, after death, been hooked to machines to pump oxygenated blood, constitutes a living person?
Wow. I guess I can't really continue with this line of thought with you then. I have no desire to change your mind, but I really thought you'd see that differently. I have no where to take this from here.

What? Respiration transpires, blood is oxygenated, blood flows to cells, cells receive nutrients and oxygen from blood, cells continue to live.

Life continues... How could I see it differently?

***I'm sorry. This is unacceptable. You may choose ONE answer. You may not say on one hand that something does not exist, then, when given an example that nothing else will answer tell me that it is an exception.

I don't understand what is unacceptable about this. What did I say did not exist? I do not believe that the subtle energy that is created through chemical-electrical processes is a 'life-force'. Nor do I believe that it is somehow separate from the body. It is an integral part of it. I don't believe it's spirit, you believe it's spirit. I never made this assertion.

It's a biofeedback loop. That is all.

[edit on 22-10-2004 by DeltaChaos]

Originally posted by DeltaChaos

Originally posted by AngelaLadyS
****REALLY ?!?!?! You really believe that a dead person who has, after death, been hooked to machines to pump oxygenated blood, constitutes a living person?
Wow. I guess I can't really continue with this line of thought with you then. I have no desire to change your mind, but I really thought you'd see that differently. I have no where to take this from here.

What? Respiration transpires, blood is oxygenated, blood flows to cells, cells receive nutrients and oxygen from blood, cells continue to live.

Life continues... How could I see it differently?

***I'm sorry. This is unacceptable. You may choose ONE answer. You may not say on one hand that something does not exist, then, when given an example that nothing else will answer tell me that it is an exception.

I don't understand what is unacceptable about this. What did I say did not exist? I do not believe that the subtle energy that is created through chemical-electrical processes is a 'life-force'. Nor do I believe that it is somehow separate from the body. It is an integral part of it. I don't believe it's spirit, you believe it's spirit. I never made this assertion.

It's a biofeedback loop. That is all.

[edit on 22-10-2004 by DeltaChaos]

I'm so floored by this I have to say it again, in a different way - just to check and see if your answer stays the same.
So...
A dead guy. He's dead right?
Then, after he's dead, a doctor comes in and says "Hey Joe, he's been dead less than 5 minutes, hook him up to the machine here and we'll take his heart."
So Joes hooks the DEAD GUY to the machine.
Now, as far as I'm concerned.... we have dead guy hooked to a machine.
You think that dead guy hooked to machine becomes alive guy once they turn the machine on. Is this correct? Are you sure your reading this right?

Originally posted by AngelaLadyS
Now, as far as I'm concerned.... we have dead guy hooked to a machine.

I'll put it a different way.


If the body does not decompose, it is alive. If there is a measureable bio-electrical current found within the cells of an organism, it is alive. If the cells assimilate oxygen and nutrients and continue to survive, they are alive.

The fact that the machine is causing the organism to stay alive is only secondary to the fact that the organism is, in fact, alive.

The organism will die if the machine is removed. Respiration will stop, the cells will cease their functions, and they will begin to decompose. Then the organism is dead.

As far as you're concerned, you've just decided what is alive and what is dead according to what you choose to believe. This belief has no bearing on the actual definitions of alive and dead.

[edit on 22-10-2004 by DeltaChaos]