Christians: What's your relationship with the dead?

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by JesuitGarlic

 

It is hardly off-topic to point out that the origin of authority of the doctrine the Catholic esposues is Satanic power according to the Bible.

It's TOTALLY off-topic. The OP didn't ask about the Catholic worship of Mary. She asked whether Christians (and others) feel they have communication from their deceased one ones.

Lay off, JG....you sound positively diabolical.

The OP asked about communication with the dead..and the Catholic practice of praying with Mary for the souls in purgatory, as they supposedly pray for us..does fit in with the op's thread.

So Jesuitgarlic has the right to view his opinion's on this, and I suggest if you don't like his long boring posts, that you just skip them.

We all have the right to express our opinions, even if they may not seem like they are on topic to some...or we disagree with them.

It is amazing that the content I present is not addressed just personal attacks...

The understanding of the root of where the doctrine of talking to the dead stems from is very important. The 'Church' had massive power in dictating the minds of man. The pantheon of gods of Greece and Roman have merely been replaced by the 'saints' in whom Rome was never given any authority from God to judge whom is a saint (is in the book of life) and who isn't.

For all those not familiar enough....there are only really 2 views in most debates on Christian doctrine. Those who follow the Bible solely and those who don't.

I will get back to FlyersFan soon

reply to post by adjensen

JesusGarlic is a Catholic hater on a par with Jack Chick, that's what drives him.

Seeing as so many here seem to be experts of this Chick fellow, how about you produce some statements he has made that are proven wrong

My name isn't JesusGarlic ....it is JesuitGarlic

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
It is amazing that the content I present is not addressed just personal attacks...

The understanding of the root of where the doctrine of talking to the dead stems from is very important. The 'Church' had massive power in dictating the minds of man. The pantheon of gods of Greece and Roman have merely been replaced by the 'saints' in whom Rome was never given any authority from God to judge whom is a saint (is in the book of life) and who isn't.

For all those not familiar enough....there are only really 2 views in most debates on Christian doctrine. Those who follow the Bible solely and those who don't.

I will get back to FlyersFan soon

It seems that some are far guiltier at times of the very same accusations they put on others.

That being said, I do understand the position you are coming from, though I must say I choose to respectfully disagree with you.

I personally believe the dead to try to communicate to us through their prayers, and for that I am grateful.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
If I recall my church history, the Christian church was still fairly apostolic in the "300s". The Catholic Church, as we know it, did not appear until about 500 AD.

Um ... no. It was a Catholic council that put the bible together. The bible is a Catholic book. If they want to change it .. which they haven't done .. they are welcome to. Martlin Luther changed it. He was welcome to put out any bible he wanted. The notion that someone needs 'authority from God' to change the bible .. that's silly. It's a human book. Humans made it. Humans can change it all they want.

Shall I add the RCC's monumental persecutions on top of that?

Irrelevant to the discussion about the bible and relationships with the dead.
If you want to start a thread about it .. go ahead.

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
Perhaps there is something a little more to it than ‘believe in’.

No. A person does not have to believe in the Old Testament to believe in a God or in Jesus. And you still have failed to prove that Adam and Even ever really existed and weren't just a creation myth.

Please fill me in on what selective parts of the Bible the Catholics hold themselves to if they discount whatever is said in the Old Testament.

I'm not speaking for Catholics when I say that the Old Testament is bunk. I'm speaking for myself. You seriously have no clue what Catholics believe. Stop reading Jack Chick and go to the source instead.
What Catholics Believe About Scripture - straight from the Catechism.

Can I hold you to things said in the New Testament or only those things in the New Testament that don’t show that the Papal doctrines are unbiblical?

Papal doctrines come from scripture AND sacred tradition. And scripture states sacred traditions are to be held onto. So sacred traditions are also fine with scripture.

I guess it must be true then that the Papacy never ..

More blah blah blah off topic anti Catholic stuff that has nothing to do with the question - the relationship people have with the dead.

praying to the dead ‘Mary’ for her intercession for them yet the titles they give Mary are from pagan religions and Satanic worship.

- Already gave the bible verses showing that the dead do indeed know what is happening on earth and even add their prayers for those who are here.

- The titles given Mary are her own .. not taken from anything Satanic :shk:

- Like I said .. give proof that the only viable information about what happens with the dead comes from the bible. Go ahead. Prove that the bible is the 'end all' and 'contains all knowledge'. Good luck with that. Considering that the bible itself says that Jesus taught so much that all the books in the world couldn't contain the information.

Are you please to know that 'Mary', the androgen or dual nature diety is Aliester Crowley's Satan?

Stop reading Jack Chick tracts. It stupifies people.

Surely the 'queen of heaven' could not have been demanding human sacrifices! Oh, but of cares right, the OT is all just myths and propaganda huh...Let's see what history says.

:shk: Mary doesn't demand human sacrifices. Get real.

The Old Testament is full of myths and much of it was stolen from other sources .. such as the Summerians and Egyptians. The Jews changed the stories and made them their own. That's just the truth of the matter. AND the Old Testament was written from the Jewish point of view which was biased.

Example - The jews were supposedly slaves in Egypt. But if they were slaves, then where'd they get all that gold to make a pagan god out of? They either were not slaves and were actually paid workers, OR they stole a pile of gold when they all left Egypt and that is why the Egyptian army was chasing them across the desert .. because they ransacked Egypt and stole the gold.

Example - Noahs Ark. If every animal on the planet was on the ark, then why aren't there penguins and polar bears in the Mountains of Turkey to this day? Afterall .. when the supposed ark landed, all the critters would have gotten off and started living. No polar bears .. no penguins .. no armadillos in Turkey ... so no Noahs Ark.

Use your head. The Old Testament doesn't make any sense.

Ah, you do realise that Jesus had other siblings...

Prove it. Good luck with that. Scripture speaks of Christ's brethren. However, as Jesus was dying, he gave his mother to John saying 'this is your mother .. 'this is your son'. If there were brothers and sisters, he would not have had to do that. It would have been insulting to them to give the mother away.

it does not mesh with the hisortical record or common sense.

says the fella that thinks the Old Testament is totally literal and says the fella that clings to Jack Chick.

Romanists make an absurd assertion that:

If you don't want to believe what others believe ... then go your way and don't believe. But frankly, the thoughts on this subject of those through the centuries make much more sense then you or Jack Chick do.

And no. Catholics don't worship Mary. Again .. you have no clue as to what Catholics believe. You've been brainwashed by reading too much Jack Chick and listening to endless hours of paranoid hate from so-called born again preachers. what Catholics believe about Mary .. from the Catechism

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
It is amazing that the content I present is not addressed just personal attacks...

Says the fella that attacks the Catholic beliefs using absurd sources and not even getting those Catholic beliefs correct.

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
Seeing as so many here seem to be experts of this Chick fellow, how about you produce some statements he has made that are proven wrong

Seriously? EVERYTHING that comes out of the Chick Pamplets are wrong. It's all hate. It's all wrong. It's all garbage that is sucked up by those who don't know any better. Chick Pamplets are a waste of paper; a waste of money; and contribute to the dumbing down of America. Example - Catholics worship cookies and worship Mary. FALSE. There ya go ... Here's some more stupidity from Jack Chick ..

The Nightmare World of Jack Chick

- The Catholic Church keeps "the name of every Protestant church member in the world" in a "big computer" in the Vatican for use in future persecutions.

- Catholic leaders manipulated the Arabian tribesman Mohammed into creating the religion of Islam to use as a weapon against the Jews and to conquer Jerusalem for the pope.

- The Jesuits instigated the American Civil War, supporting the Confederate cause and seeking to undermine the Union. When they failed, they arranged the assassination of Abraham Lincoln.[3] Later, they formed the Ku Klux Klan.

- Pope John Paul II has been a good Communist for many years"[12] and engineered a phony assassination attempt against himself in 1981 to shame Islam into warming relations with the Vatican, since the would-be killer was a Muslim.

Now back to the topic ...

- The bible does NOT contain all the information about what happens when you die.

- The bible does NOT contain all the information about the next world.

- The bible contradicts itself saying that the dead 'are asleep' but also it says the dead are active and aware of what is happening in the world, and they pray to God about the world situation.

- Personal exerience of MILLIONS of people around the world say that there is indeed a spirit world and that they have connected with friends or relatives who have gone on to the next world. (me included)

reply to post by FlyersFan

prove that Adam and Even ever really existed and weren't just a creation myth.

Luke 3:23-38 (KJV)

23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph,...27 Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of Neri,...30 Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of Eliakim,...31 Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the son of David,...32 Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Boaz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,...34 Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which was the son of Nachor,...37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,...38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Gospel of Luke confirms Adam and many characters of the Old Testament.

Mark 10:5,6 And Jesus answered and said to them,"...But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female.

Matthew 23:35, "And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel [Adam and Eve's second son] to the blood of Zechariah..."

Jude, brother of Jesus says:

Jude 14, "Enoch, the seventh from Adam..."

Paul:

Romans 5:12-14 , "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned - To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam..."

1st Timothy 2:13-14 "For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner."

Jesus talking about Noah's Ark and the Flood
Jesus says:

Matthew 24:38-39, "For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man."

Peter Says:

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

2 Peter 3:5-6 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

-----
Paul in Hebrews Chapter 11 ...The accounts of Cain and Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Sarah, Esau, Joseph, the Exodus, Moses, Passover, Red Sea Crossing, the walls of Jericho falling, Gideon, Barak, Samson, David and Samuel, Jephthah, the prostitute Rahab, are all confirmed within this chapter.

So who is lying and a false prophet this time, Jesus, Paul, Peter, Jude, authors of the various gospels???

Should we turf out all of those people too from our NT authority

Sorry for my slow reply...I was a bit caught up over the weekend...I will try to get to your other queries over the next couple of days.

reply to post by adjensen


Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

Originally posted by iESOTERICuEXOTERIC
reply to post by adjensen

 

Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

Christians are clearly admonished to judge how people act, though in reflection of their actions, not their ultimate resolution. (John 7:24)

In other words --- is someone wrong? That's obviously reasonable. Is someone condemned to hell for their beliefs? That's obviously left to God.

Which have I done?

reply to post by adjensen


You are assuming you know JG heart and intentions when you don't.
You assume he is hate filled when he is trying to make sure that people aren't deceived.

He is the one advocating that the Bible be followed more closely than anyone here yet is talked down to. He presents quotes from Pope's and official Catholic sources directly yet gets laughed at for using Jack Chick. He hasn't quoted anything written by Jack Chick so why the slanders?

reply to post by iESOTERICuEXOTERIC


Hate is hate, Ace.

The Jack Chick stuff is just an allegory, I'm not saying that he's a cartoonist.

If you want to defend hatred against Christians, get in the line... there are a lot of others ahead of you.

reply to post by FlyersFan

You seriously have no clue what Catholics believe. Stop reading Jack Chick and go to the source instead.

I have a decent understanding of what they outwardly promote (from the Catechism) and I also understand that at the highest levels their actions suggest differing beliefs.
- Vatican backs Darwin, Dumps Creationism
- Vatican Official Defends Evolution Against 'Useless' Creationism

I would not call -

Quoting the late Pope John Paul II, Ravasi said that "evolution can no longer be considered a hypothesis."
Pope Benedict XVI warned last week against fundamentalists' literal interpretations of the Bible.

Information such as this is not supportive of the Old Testament at all no matter what the Catechism says. What they have said here is against Jesus' support for the original account of Creation and Genesis. To say that all you have to do is 'believe in' Him and yet reject what He has said is NOT 'believing in Him' (not to mention all the other NT writers that support those accounts as well). Do you see the conflict here...it is man's word against God's. I have no issue backing up fully the creationist account over evolution with the scientific evidence. That is not the issue. It is that people should not be following the authority of any teaching which is in conflict with God. Catholics/Christians should not stand for what the recent popes have said about the theory of evolution over creationism (70% of Christian lose their faith in their first year of university upon encountering evolutionary theory). Their statements are not only not backed up by scientific evidence or God but they are also faith destroying

Papal doctrines come from scripture AND sacred tradition. And scripture states sacred traditions are to be held onto. So sacred traditions are also fine with scripture.

Well of course you can keep traditions that don't conflict with scripture but what about traditions that come in that are directly against scripture? Which gets thrown out first? Let's see what the New Testament has to say about this:

(Matthew 15:3,6,9) But He answered and said to them, why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?...And you void the commandment of God by your tradition...But in vain they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

"These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men...And he said to them. 'You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions.'" Mark 7:7,9

Now where does the 'tradition' of idolatry come from in Catholic teaching?

1 Corinthians 10:14, 19, 20 (Douay-Rheims Bible) Wherefore, my dearly beloved, fly from the service of idols...What then ? Do I say, that what is offered in sacrifice to idols, is any thing? Or, that the idol is any thing? But the things which the heathens sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God. And I would not that you should be made partakers with devils.

1 John 5:21 (Douay-Rheims Bible) Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

It clearly conflicts with scripture and makes it known that anything given (sacrifice) to the idol/image is something you are really partaking in with devils/demons

Is this not correct?

Where does the tradition come from for not keeping the Lords Day (Matthew 12:8 for the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.)?

The positive New Testament command given

Hebrews 4:9 So then, it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.
[or alternatively]

There remains therefore a rest [sabbatismos, Strong's #4520 meaning; a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.] to the people of God.

The Catholic church says-

Cardinal Gibbons, the then official mouth-piece for the Pope in America

The arguments...are firmly grounded on the word of God, and having been closely studied with the Bible in hand, leave no escape for the conscientious Protestant except the abandonment of Sunday worship and the return to Saturday, commanded by their teacher, the Bible, or, unwilling to abandon the tradition of the Catholic Church, which enjoins the keeping of Sunday, and which they have accepted in direct opposition to their teacher, the Bible, consistently accept her (the Catholic Church) in all her teachings. Reason and common sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday, or Catholicism and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible.” — Cardinal James Gibbons, in Catholic Mirror, December 23, 1893.

"Sunday is founded not on Scripture, but on tradition, and is a distinctly Catholic institution." - Catholic Record Sept. 17, 1893.

These quotes make it clear that the Catholic church is not following the Bible and it is making up it's own 'tradition' in conflict as the 'sacred tradition' with us from the beginning was to keep the Sabbath (Genesis 2:2-3).

So the 'tradition' of Sunday doesn't come from scripture so what 'sacred' tradition does it come from???

Sunday was the name given by the heathens to the first day of the week, because it was the day on which they worshiped the sun." John Eadie, D.D., LL.D. A Bible Cyclopedia, p. 561

'Webster's International Dictionary, 19th edition' - Sunday...so called because this day was anciently dedicated to the sun, or its worship

reply to post by FlyersFan

Please provide proof that the bible is the only source of information of value as far as knowing what is happening in the spirit world. Good luck with that. YOU quoted scripture as if it were the end-all authority on the matter. (which it isn't). Go ahead and prove that your cherry picking of scripture is the only possible reality when it comes to the spirit world .. and that the bible contains ALL POSSIBLE information in regards to the spirit world

1 Corinthians 4:6 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. As the Scriptures say, "He traps the wise in the snare of their own cleverness."

Already gave the bible verses showing that the dead do indeed know what is happening on earth and even add their prayers for those who are here.

Your "BEST EXAMPLE ... Revelation 6:9-10"
Revelation is a prophetic book using symbolic language. This particular passage is referring to God's concern for the justice and vindication the martyrs seek for the persecution they have and they will suffer for their faithfulness to the gospel. Verse 11 states that they must rest until their fellow brothers in Christ have been made complete (have perfected their character by remaining faithful to Jesus under persecuting times) which is a reference to that they must remain 'resting' until the end of the Time of Trouble/Tribulation period is over (which hasn't even started yet).

References used:
- "Secrets of Revelation - The Apocalypse Through Hebrew Eyes" by Dr. Jacques B. Doukhan, p.64-66
- "Revelation of Jesus Christ - Commentary on the Book of Revelation Second Edition" by Dr. Ranko Stefanovic p. 244-248

Ephesians 3:14-15

Paul returns to a report of his prayers for his readers (1:15-23) . They are apparently tempted to become discouraged at Paul's imprisonment (3:1, 13). Paul here envisions a very different experience for them (and for us): one bathed in power and love from the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit. He concludes with an inspiring doxology, a prayer of praise to God
source: Andrews Study Bible 2010; study notes Ephesians 3:14-21, p. 1546

Irrelevant supporting text

Hebrews 12:22-23
This passage does not refer to righteous people that have died as Hebrews 11:39-40 explains they did not receive "the promise" nor have they been "made perfect". This passage refers a scene of the heavenly city using the language of Revelation 21:2 which occurs after Jesus comes the second time.

Revelation 5:8
The 24 elders mentioned here are nameless and can be assumed to be filled from the ranks of those select few who were raised as well when Jesus was resurrected. 'the prayers of the saints' are described symbolically as a golden bowl full of incense. The smoke or prayers from the incense rise from low to high thus referring to people on this Earth now still alive who are partitioning God through prayer. In Revelation 14:12 it describes 'saints' as those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus (not those who the sea beast power self nominates as 'saints' and who 'wear out the saints'). The same comments apply to your proposed verses of Revelation 8:3-4 as well.

I will continue this on again tomorrow...

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

It is that people should not be following the authority of any teaching which is in conflict with God.

Catholics/Christians should not stand for what the recent popes have said about the theory of evolution over creationism

????

Why not?

Their statements are not only not backed up by scientific evidence

*gasps* NOOOooooez! EDIT: Uh, yes, they ARE backed up by scientific evidence

or God but they are also faith destroying.

WHAT?!!!!!
Are you serious?

You know, JesuitGarlic, you killed this thread some time ago.....
and yet, you keep on.

The above quoted statement may possibly be the most inane post I have read in this forum.
Go ahead and report me. This is ridiculous.

Why is it, do you think, that "70% of Christian[sic] lose their faith in their first year of university upon encountering evolutionary theory."
????????
Erm
Uh
Ahem.....

BECAUSE IT MAKES BETTER SENSE, and also, they're not blind followers?
Maybe?
Those two little issues?

reply to post by wildtimes

Why is it, do you think, that "70% of Christian[sic] lose their faith in their first year of university upon encountering evolutionary theory."

Are you sure you are correct about that statement..just wondering where the stats come from, and if they are actually legit.

I have known many Christians who have attended university, and in no way did the "evolutionary" theory shake their faith. Many think evolution is combined with the creation theory..so both are accepted as truth.

Sorry, but I felt like my dead father was urging me to ask you that question...but that could just be my imagination.

Personally i don't try to communicate with the dead since becomming a christian even though i did study the paranormal with EMF detectors, EVP, witch boards and all that stuff before then. Messing with the dead will do you more harm than good, and you may end up using it as a crutch or "playing the harlot" with as many people did with seances during mid 19th century to turn of the 20th century. I'd rather just not fool with that stuff because you open doorways into your mind for demonic entities to get a foothold in. I know because i was being haunted by something before i came to Christ and i couldn't get rid of it until after i got saved. Trust me, waking up in the wee hours of the morning after something you can;t see turns your light on and gruffly says "get up!", and having dishes thrown at you from across the room and invisible feet running across your living room and kitchen floors is not something you really want to play with, it's terrifying knowing there's something there with you that can see you and touch you, and you can't fight back.

reply to post by wildtimes


Wildtimes....Lonewolf has seen me post on creationism before and I have a feeling that adjensen has as well briefly (although most of my most thorough posting on this was done on a thread in the secret society forum). Many here know that evolutionary theory is BS and can be shown to be the case. To thoroughly alter your view of the topic though I would probably need to spend much time (2-3 weeks) and using up much page space going off-topic when I have no trust that you will pay any attention to what I have to say or what I suggest to watch and read. It is apparent from your attitude that it would be extremely difficult for you to swallow any insights from me so I have to question whether or not it is a fruitless task. I have no interest in someone just baiting me for the hell of it but no willingness to learn anything other than confirmation of only their own world.

You see Wildtimes, this thread is referencing the opinion of "Christian's" and amongst Christians I should not have to provide ('scientific') evidence to support ones faith.

John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

If you want to have this debate then I suggest you post up your evidence for evolution...perhaps Lonewolf will answer you, if he is struggling or has no desire to then I will probably reply. Or perhaps you may wish to create your own thread suggesting the response from Christians or Creationists only where you are advocating your evidence for evolutionary theory.

Catholics/Christians should not stand for what the recent popes have said about the theory of evolution over creationism

Why not?

Well you see Wildtimes, the pope likes to claim that he is God's representative on Earth (his Latin title "Vicarius Filli Dei" literally translates as 'In the place of the Son of God'...(many of us here know what he actually represents and we expect him to do things like this that help destroy the faith of Christians)...but for those who swallow the Vatican (not scripturally sound or supported historically with archeological evidence) claim to earthly authority should expect him to actually uphold the teachings in the Catechism which is to believe what is written in the Old Testament (meaning the creation account) and what Jesus says (where He upholds the creation account). For the pope to affirm anything contrary to this means he not only does not represent Catholic teaching he does not represent God.

reply to post by WhisperingWinds

Are you sure you are correct about that statement..just wondering where the stats come from, and if they are actually legit.

A) I did not make the statement. JesuitGarlic did.
B) I was not addressing you in my response to him making that statement
C) Your mockery of my grief for my late father is appalling