South African Police open fire on protesting Miners.

www.aljazeera.com...

This Al Jazeera vid shows it in a way none of the others do. I recognise the miners were armed
but to open up on a crowd like that without discrimination for your target, they're forced into the police
blocking their escape from being shredded by shotgun shells. You can hear the first shots before the
volley of assault rifles. Can anyone pick out handgun fire before the shotgun?

reply to post by DelegateZero88


An ex cop they had on the news today said it very well,

Put barbwire at the bottom of the hill, give it 50 meters and put up a 2nd one, another 50/100meters a 3rd. If they pass the first barbwire you use rubber bullets (teargas), if they pass the 2nd teargas (rubber bullets), if the 3rd is broken you use the water cannons. By that time most would have been immobilized. Makes perfect sense that much less would have lost their lives.

Looking at the video i see them creeping up to the cops. It took the cops by surprise. The police in the front were running backwards from that surprise "creeping". That the protestors have killed 2 policeman already, i can understand why the cops reacted in the way they did. These protestors also killed 2 security guards by setting their car alight, burning them. They have threatened workers who still wanted to work with their lives, and 6 of their co-workers were killed by this protest. That is 10 lives that were taken by the protestors hands in a period of 6 days before the police retaliation of yesterday.

People are looking at this either from protesting POV or policing POV. I am looking at it as citizen of South Africa and i want my family safe. The police stopped protestors who CLEARLY had malevolent intentions. If any innocent person have been killed, why did he choose to run with the pack? They dared the police to come get them. There was a (union?) guy who pleaded with them to put down their weapons, and sadly that did not happen. If these guys had to run over the police, we would have had serious problems here.

I am taking the side of the police cause i would do the same if i was in any of their shoes. If i put myself in the shoes of a mine worker i would have stayed at home, not go to work as i would have been threatened with my life. I would not join people out with a vengeance.

But, to each his own. We all have a side we choose. In South Africa it is a 50/50 by listening to people. There is no right in any of this. Only if these guys did not take up arms, only if.

reply to post by DelegateZero88


There was a volley of teargas and rubber bullets before the main volley. The audio is not distinct enough to tell. Even those that were there aren't sure, it was too noisy. The other footage we know exists was taken from the police helicopter. That apparently shows organised tactics against the police, we'll see if they release it. It cannot be over stated that these strikers had paid money to sangomas to protect them ... they honestly believed they were bullet proof Nothing but a bullet gonna change his mind.


PS: from an emergency worker on twitter:
I wonder how the cops are feeling today after the mine shooting incident. Must be hard on them. In my thoughts guys. Not easy to live with.

I second that.

I don't think either side is right, the unions for calling a riot a protest and the police while justified in defending
themselves and clearly reacted out of fear and shock, I can't understand how you could just
fire into a crowd you have to assume there are some innocent people in (more focusing on the guy firing the shotgun with total abandon. I get how a line of armed men would panic being rushed by an armed mob)
And finally, I think the foreign mining companies that own all our resources and the government that sold
those people out are to blame for allowing it to get to this. I'm not picking sides, I think everyone's in the wrong.

reply to post by harryhaller


I'm am hoping for the footage from the police helicopter. I do hope they release it as i believe we will see how it went down.

True on the sangomas! They were pointing that out on the news quite a bit. The protestors believed they were invincible. Blind faith.

As always, Harry, love your replies


reply to post by DelegateZero88


I agree & even if stand with the police on this, there is no right here. Lives were lost. To put it in a clearer way: In my opinion, i know if these protestors should have gotten it right to overrun the police there would have been serious implications. The protestors killed their own, and that makes me wonder what they would have done to those who are not their own. The thing is, this ain't over yet.

If they could overthrow the police, well...

What were the police once again doing protecting the mine ( bosses) from, WITH MY money, from 'IT"S' workers? Let the mine pay the workers fairly or alternative hire more and more security ( and deal with the legal implications of security and workers killing each other) with all the money they saved not paying the workers. Fact is the South Africa police is now more than 200 000 strong and the only thing they do even remotely well IS deal with the riots that happen all over this country nearly every day. Fact will probably turn out to be, if never admitted, that the police fired on workers out of revenge for earlier killing of two policemen or due to the machinations of the mine management as they are certainly not normally this inept at riot control.

This SHOULD escalate somewhat as the only thing that will apparently convince the ANC to act in the general best interest of it's voters, which incidentally will probably result in better living conditions for even better conditions for white financial prosperity, is if international and local outrage compels the ANC to bring the capitalist to the table for some concessions to workers. Our national budget is far too austere considering the jobless rates and poverty issues and it's just a shame that European nations can spend themselves into bankruptcy while the ANC economic policy makes the US and so many other nations look like banana republics.

In my eyes blaming the workers for getting machine gunned is much like blaming women for getting battered to death by accident. I mean why couldn't she just shut up and clean stuff and stop bothering the man of the house? She should have known better, right?

PS: Yes, we have corruption but not more so than what we had in former white government. What is hurting is more than anything today is a badly implemented affirmative action policy that the government for very human and practical political reasons refuses to correct.

Stellar

Originally posted by StellarX
PS: Yes, we have corruption but not more so than what we had in former white government.
Stellar

What i hope people learn from this is that there is no difference between apartheid and the new south africa. A small political elite holds all the power the the detriment of the majority. It's that simple. The conspiracy is that the true power, the money and mines never changed. De Klerk and Mandela were brothers in a way the rest of us aren't.

Originally posted by KaelemJames
Put barbwire at the bottom of the hill, give it 50 meters and put up a 2nd one, another 50/100meters a 3rd. If they pass the first barbwire you use rubber bullets (teargas), if they pass the 2nd teargas (rubber bullets), if the 3rd is broken you use the water cannons. By that time most would have been immobilized. Makes perfect sense that much less would have lost their lives.

Thanks for the compliment, and the sentiment is certainly returned

I'm hindered in that at work i have no audio, so well caught on the above Been thinking about it and it does make perfect sense as a strategy. It's the reason Phiyega is backing her guys, she's seen the chopper footage and if nothing else, i don't believe she'd be silent if she believed it was improper reaction on the part of police. She's a wild card: ex banker, woman's rights activist, now general in the police ... time will tell ???

Another strange thought worth sharing, was the medical response, which strangely passed under the radar during the night. But the point is, within a few hours they received and processed over a hundred dead and wounded, many with multiple gunshot wounds. The more i think about it, the more it impresses me. They got that part right.

While posting the above, the following picture was released:

Sipho Hlongwane ‏@comradesipho
This shack was burnt down last night. It belonged to a man who did not go on strike. twitpic.com/aktajv

Malema arriving shortly, police have issueed warnings to the community about "agent provocateurs" ... timing?

This isn't over.

Oh dear, my sympathies go out to some fellow South Africans on this thread.

I've also faced the wrath of individual outrage in a similar (but not identical) thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Well my response would be: tell the ANC of your outrage.
If the police are responsible the ANC (who run the police since 1994) are responsible.

The ANC make the capitalist business and tax rules, and the ANC make the laws on unions.

Tell the ANC and "Saint Mandela" of your outrage.

The ANC was sponsored by leftist liberals, so the outrage is by those people against those people.

Few will understand how tired many South Africans are of intimidation, violence, criminality and destruction and people who abuse our democracy.
I think support for the police has brought people together in this case.
That doesn't mean unconditional support, or that everything the police did was right, but somebody finally put their foot down.

There are multiple meanings one can attach to a tragedy like this, and I see there's a different slant from within SA to what people interpret internationally.

Well there's no outraged revolution, and all the miners will most likely vote ANC again at the next election.

"R500 reward for killing police" twitter.com...

Malema has been and gone without incident.

reply to post by harryhaller

Goodness, the tornado in the tea cup is growing.

It's at times like this Harry that I'm grateful that my race and gender identity are no longer responsible for nothing in this country.
Uneasy rests the head that wears that crown now.

Even blaming Zuma's usual "Minister of National ANC Failures", the long departed Dr Verwoerd (1901-1966) won't seem convincing in this case.

mg.co.za...
"You must never retreat, even in the face of death," he told the gathering, not far from the koppie where 34 had died only days before.

And even if strikers did fire at the police first, the police should not have fired back.

But it was to Jacob Zuma that he returned time and time again. Zuma, Malema said, had told police to use maximum force. "From today, when asked 'who is your president', you must say 'I don't have a president'," he urged the group.

Perhaps some of the international folk would find this state of affairs interesting.

reply to post by harryhaller

Oh my hat, the Jelly-tsotsi - Julius Malema - also had something to add.

It seems I missed all the action today outside ATS.

Is this the beginning of the end for Zuma?
Will he be booted out by the ANC like Mbeki?

Perhaps in hindsight one day we'll see it was an instigated conspiracy for political manipulation.

The plot sickens.

reply to post by halfoldman


Zuma's power structure is safe until infighting between his own cadre, or Malema's power base come to conflict,
it's happened before but Zuma's support that he's structured within our own police force and criminal intelligence,
and military for that matter, protected him from the power grab, with more and more youth support and a lot
more in government looking to be sold to the highest bidder, i'm not always so skeptical that Malema might be
a part of our political future. Off topic I know, but I do think it's part of the whole political quagmire we face.

Apartheid was bad, but post-Apartheid South Africa is ten times worth. The ANC is a member of the "Socialist International". Like all other leftist countries, SA is gradually devolving to a genocidal totalitarian state. They dont stop at deposessing and murdering white farmers but do the same toward the black population or anyone who stands in the way of the socialist workers paradise. So you see, anywhere in the world leftists are in power, evil ensues.

Hi,

I have a few questions!

Originally posted by lucid eyes
Apartheid was bad, but post-Apartheid South Africa is ten times worth.

For whom? Which if any part of South-African society is suffering 'ten times more' now than they did in the 70's and 80's?

The ANC is a member of the "Socialist International". Like all other leftist countries, SA is gradually devolving to a genocidal totalitarian state.

Member? South-Africa is a member of a large number of international organizations and groups but i presume you might be referring to BRIC? How is South-Africa more totalitarian now than it was in the 70's or 80's when we had a very very real police state? As for genocidal again how is South-Africa's current social and economic policies more genocidal than it was under the apartheid( but in economic terms capitalistic) regime? If you are referring to farm murders the whole notion that 'boer farmers' are in fact a 'racial/ethnic' group is just untrue even if a good proportion of said farmers, and whites in general, do believe that they are in fact so special as to warrant the creation of a special ethnic group; it was not so hard building apartheid around such people.

There are however many millions of 'whites' left in this country that in terms of security the ANC has failed to protect to a similar ( or in my opinion much lesser) extent as the rest of the citizenry.

They dont stop at deposessing and murdering white farmers but do the same toward the black population or anyone who stands in the way of the socialist workers paradise. So you see, anywhere in the world leftists are in power, evil ensues.

Socialism? South-Africa? We have one of the WORSE GINI index ratings in the world which if you do not know means that if the ANC, as you suggest, is trying to practice redistributive policies here they are failing absolutely dismally at it or, alternatively, or have a terrific long way to catch up to whatever socialist countries you may be referring to.

But perhaps if you knew something about the ANC you would realise that they only thing they seem really adapt at is staying in power and making sure that there are enough concentrated wealth in this country that their free meal may continue forever.

Stellar

Originally posted by StellarX
For whom? Which if any part of South-African society is suffering 'ten times more' now than they did in the 70's and 80's?

All of it? Fire those miners and tell me how many work options they have? The economy is grinding to a halt, and red-tape is destroying what's left and actively preventing further growth (ask any small business owner). Once you get over the apartheid victory myth there's nothing left but bad economic policies, courtesy of Britain. That the ANC is so incompetent is just increasing the speed of decay.

Hmmm, denying boers' ethnicity?
Do you understand that Lonmin was tribal, Eastern Cape Xhosa's moved to the Northwest? That was asking for trouble, stupid idea right from the word go.

You're mistaking socialism for tribalism. Where the chief owns 100 cows, you own none, and you'd better be nice to him if you want to eat. What's the GINI co-efficient for that? And doesn't it look just like USSR communism? Or any other dictatorship you care to name, including Zimbabwe.

But perhaps if you knew something about the ANC you would realise that they only thing they seem really adapt at is staying in power and making sure that there are enough concentrated wealth in this country that their free meal may continue forever.

And collecting revenue, they're very good at that.

Very interesting article by City Press.

The Guns of Marikana
Lucas Ledwaba

There, under the instructions of a medicine man who allegedly hails from Eastern Cape, they stripped naked, stood in single file and waited for their turn to be sprinkled with herbs.
The medicine man used a razor blade on some of the men, making small incisions on their foreheads before smearing a black, gel-like potion on them.

Police identified the man as a senior mine supervisor. Pangas were used to hack his face and head, and he was left for dead on a footpath.
A picture taken by the police shows the man’s mangled body lying face up, one eye wide in death, and a cow’s skull on his chest.

We learnt that there were strict rules governing this gathering: no hats, no jewellery, no mobile phones, no cameras and, above all, strictly no women.

Go read it to understand a little better.

Whatever the mitigating facts or circumstances, the FACT remains - a massacre had occured, and worse, over mere money.

Today, the mining corp had 'graciously' extended the deadline for all miners to return or face unemployment, and with the ANC bootlicking current legitimate Union backing the company, only 30% of workforce returned.

To the miners:-

1. Tell the corporation and the legitimate ANC bootlicking Union to go to hell. DO NOT return to work. There is NOTHING to fear.

The company had claimed that they will run into losses if the strike goes on, as they have obligations to serve to the banks whom loan them the money.

SO WHAT?

Does it mean our fellow human brothers and sisters in that state are SLAVES to the corporations, whom had grown fat and rich, and could even buy off ANC political hacks and Unions to have their say and way, instead of sharing that wealth for all?

Do Slaves have an obligation to be loyal to their masters whom had mistreated and murdered them?

FACT is, when the company goes down, another will come. The strength of employment of africans lay in the wealth underground. One greedy son of a bit*h goes, another will come.


2. Thus, those miners must NEVER give in to the company demands and their bootlicking complaint union whom had grown fat off the sweat of the workers.

The miners must share, discuss, debate and convince every other worker to lay down tools, not by force or threats, but by logic and truths. Africans had been slave long enough.

Time to take back the country, from the blacks leaders whom had sold out to greed upon the blood of thousands of our fellow human brothers and sisters in Africa whom had only sought for the very common goals in life all mankind share - peace, love, justice, equality, shared prosperity, progress and responsible freedom.


3. It that unconscionable mining company hires foreigners or new workers, then deny those foreigners food, water and shelter, BUT WITHOUT VIOLENCE. It is not necessary. The land and resources belong to the People, and not to foreigners or the greedy citizens.

It goes for all the same in every industry in the entire continent of Africa. The time has come for Africans to once and for all achieve what every human born on Earth is entitled to, and boot out those corrupted smooth talking monsters out of every leadership role in the nation.

Responsible freedom is not a complicated subject. It is only what you want and for your innocent love ones, and the longings for freedom can easily be communicated and understood by all, beginning with you and me, with our families, relatives and friends, which makes up civilised nations and our planet we all share.

Corruption and dictatorship will end!

I'm totally on the police's side on this. Any one of you grab a kitchen knife and storm a cop, see how quickly you get dropped.

Protesting norm in SA is screaming, shouting, throwing stones and bricks and perhaps a plackard or two if you're feeling intelectual on the given day.

Showing up with knives, pangas and petrol bombs... literally butchering two police men and then launching a military-style group assault on the cops is nothing short of intentional.

Thosw guys were not running up there to negotiate, it wasnt a mock charge. # was going down! This was the real deal. They were out to kill as many police men as they could before they were shot down. The only thing that they didnt count on was that SA police dont take #.

They would never have taken such measures if they were'nt placed in that position. And quite frankly it is unfair that they were put in that position in the first place.

They have been trained to deal with highly dangerous individuals, they have been ordered to 'shoot to kill' if their life is in danger. They have only done what they were supposed to do. Thats it.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com