New Swiftie Ad!

In Ohio, during Judge Judy, at 4:19pm Eastern Time, a new Swift Boat ad is played. What do they do? They try to discredit the FACT that Vietnam soldiers signed documents saying that they raped, shot, and killed civillians, razed and pillaged villages. What do they say? "It was part of the torture." Wait, you signed the documents in America, what torture are you talking about? Wow, looks like they shoot and miss, again! And Again!

[edit on 11-10-2004 by James the Lesser]

[edit on 11-10-2004 by MacKiller]

Edit it plays again! 5:43pm Eastern Time during the News! Same bull!

Sorry Mac, I will stop that.

[edit on 11-10-2004 by James the Lesser]

I think it's obvious by the lack of interest in this post, and the lack of much discussion regarding the swift vets organization that everyone (Democrats and Republicans alike) are tired of the Swifty's slanted point of view.

I for one am sick of them, and am glad they are being ignored.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
In Ohio, during Judge Judy, at 4:19pm Eastern Time, a new Swift Boat ad is played. What do they do? They try to discredit the FACT that Vietnam soldiers signed documents saying that they raped, shot, and killed civillians, razed and pillaged villages. What do they say? "It was part of the torture." Wait, you signed the documents in America, what torture are you talking about? Wow, looks like they shoot and miss, again! And Again!

[edit on 11-10-2004 by James the Lesser]

[edit on 11-10-2004 by MacKiller]

Edit it plays again! 5:43pm Eastern Time during the News! Same bull!

Sorry Mac, I will stop that.

[edit on 11-10-2004 by James the Lesser]

I never even heard that they signed documents in America. I'm not trying to counter you, I really don't know. Can you offer any proof or anything?

To me this is irrelevant. Why? Because I (and a slowly growing group of educated voters) has decided to ignore the bipartisan stupidity being shoved down our throats. I want to see ads dealing strictly with what each candidate feels about the present and about the future. I don't care at all about what happened 30 years ago with the Swift Boat people or with the Texas National Guard. Tell me what you're going to do as MY president that should convince me to vote for you. These 527 groups need to put a sock in it. Tell me about health care plans, economic plans, foreign policy, etc. Not ancient history. I want the guy with the best plan for the future not the guy with the best spin people who can make his past look prettier.

You are exactly right Djarums. This is the main reason there are still so many undecided voters out there. Their main reason for being undecided? Because they don't know where the candidates stand on the issues. If they would each spend 1/10th of their time that they put down the other candidate and use it to tell us what their stances are, then we might be getting somewhere.

I have never seen any of their ads yet, I guess they think the south is pretty much in the republican pocket and they probably think that putting ads in the south is a waste of money.

I'd be willing to bet that 75% of average American citizens can not tell you if Bush or Kerry are for or against gay marraige, abortion, tax cuts, or what their plans for health care are.

I'd be willing to bet that those same people can give a detailed description of John Kerry's medal issues and Bush's Guard service. That's so sad that votes will be cast based on topics completely irrelevant to the welfare of our nation.

But yes, at the same time I'm sure an orange tan and ruffled jacket are more important than issues too. I have never in my life seen a more non "election-like" election than this one. This is like a High School class president race. "He's a good boy from a nice home, vote for him"

Djarum:

I agree with you that people need to focus on the issues; however, someones past tells a lot about who they are and the kind of decisions they are going to make. It can tell you if they're honest, if they really mean what they say...all sorts of things. If Hitler suddenly changed his mind and decided to run for president, would his past be fine just as long as he said that he would do great things for our country?

The "Winter Soldiers Investigation" has been discredited for so long and so often and it has been documented here at least a half a dozen time by me alone.

I for one really love the new Swift Boat Vets ad showing a cross-section of veterans who went to war and come home and lived their lives without lying about their service or their fellow veterans to further their careers.

Great stuff and real.

Grady...who lied? Please show me some proof that Kerry lied in his speech to congress. You realize that the investigation proved his allegations true don't you?

Originally posted by sensfan
Grady...who lied? Please show me some proof that Kerry lied in his speech to congress. You realize that the investigation proved his allegations true don't you?

Kerry lied and the "vets" who "testified" at the WSI were found to be frauds. The evidence is all over the internet and I have posted it here ad nauseum. I don't know why I have to keep reseaching and posting the same material over and over again when everyone has the same Google I have. I guess it keeps me busy so fifty liars can post without any substantiation.

But, here we go again.

The Winter Soldier Investigation:

Busted by the Historians

From 31 January to 2 February 1971, the VVAW, with financial backing from actress Jane Fonda, convened a hearing, known as the Winter Soldier Investigation, in the city of Detroit. More than 100 veterans and 16 civilians testified at this hearing about "war crimes which they either committed or witnessed"; some of them had given similar testimony at the CCI inquiry in Washington. The allegations included using prisoners for target practice and subjecting them to a variety of grisly tortures to extract information, cutting off the ears of dead VCs, throwing VC suspects out of helicopters, burning villages, gang rapes of women, packing the vagina of a North Vietnamese nurse full of grease with a grease gun, and the like. Among the persons assisting the VVAW in organizing and preparing this hearing was Mark Lane, author of a book attacking the Warren Commission probe of the Kennedy Assassination and more recently of "Conversations with Americans", a book of interviews with Vietnam veterans about war crimes. On 22 December 1970 Lane's book had received a highly critical review in the "New York Times Book Review" by Neil Sheehan, who was able to show that some of the alleged "witnesses" of Lane's war crimes had never even served in Vietnam while others had not been in the combat situations they described in horrid detail.


-----
The results of this investigation, carried out by the Naval Investigative Service, are interesting and revealing.

Many of the veterans, though assured that they would not be questioned about atrocities they might have committed personally, refused to be interviewed. One of the active members of the VVAW told investigators that the leadership had directed the entire membership not to cooperate with military authorities. A black Marine who agreed to be interviewed was unable to provide details of the outrages he had described at the hearing, but he called the Vietnam War "one huge atrocity" and "a racist plot." He admitted that the question of atrocities had not occurred to him while he was in Vietnam, and that he had been assisted in the preparation of his testimony by a member of the Nation of Islam. But the most damaging finding consisted of the sworn statements of several veterans, corroborated by witnesses, that they had in fact not attended the hearing in Detroit. One of them had never been to Detroit in all his life. He did not know, he stated, who might have used his name. Incidents similar to some of those described at the VVAW hearing undoubtedly did occur. We know that hamlets were destroyed, prisoners tortured, and corpses mutilated. Yet these incidents either (as in the destruction of hamlets) did not violate the law of war or took place in breach of existing regulations. In either case, they were not, as alleged, part of a "criminal policy." The VVAW's use of fake witnesses and the failure to cooperate with military authorities and to provide crucial details of the incidents further cast serious doubt on the professed desire to serve the causes of justice and humanity. It is more likely that this inquiry, like others earlier and later, had primarily political motives and goals
ice.he.net...

Yesterday's Lies: Steve Pitkin and the Winter Soldiers

In January of 1971, Pitkin was invited to go to Detroit for the VVAW's "Winter Soldier Investigation," a national conference intended to convince the public that American troops were routinely committing war crimes in Vietnam. "I was just going to show support for the guys who were already picked out to testify," said Pitkin. "Fighting in the war was terrible enough -� I shot people -- but I never saw any atrocities against civilians. The Vietcong hung up tribal chiefs and disemboweled them in front of their own families �- they did that to their own people. I never saw Americans do anything like that."

The Baltimore contingent met up with other VVAW members in Washington, where they were loaded into rental vans with no back seats. It was freezing cold in Pitkin's van, and Kerry and another former officer were in the front where all the heat was, which made for a long drive. Pitkin was unimpressed with the tall, aloof Kerry, who rarely spoke to anyone other than the organization�s leaders, and tagged Kerry with the nickname "Lurch" after the Addams Family TV character. The ragtag group eventually made it to Detroit, got lost for a while, and then spent the night at somebody's house. The conference was held at a Howard Johnson�s motel, in a room Pitkin remembers as having big concrete posts and no windows, with press lights glaring down on the participants. An entourage of VVAW leaders and reporters always surrounded John Kerry, who, Pitkin thought, looked like he was running for President.

Pitkin watched for a day or so while his fellow VVAW members told stories about horrible things they claimed to have done or witnessed in Vietnam. He noticed other people, civilians, going around to the VVAW members and "bombarding them, laying on the guilt," as they told the veterans they had committed unspeakable crimes, but could make amends by testifying against the war.
ice.he.net...

This is a lie:

(Audiotape, April 18, 1971):

MR. CROSBY NOYES (Washington Evening Star): Mr. Kerry, you said at one time or another that you think our policies in Vietnam are tantamount to genocide and that the responsibility lies at all chains of command over there. Do you consider that you personally as a Naval officer committed atrocities in Vietnam or crimes punishable by law in this country?

SEN. KERRY: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.

(End audiotape)

And here he tries to squirm out of it:

MR. RUSSERT: Thirty years later, you stand by that?

SEN. KERRY: I don't stand by the genocide. I think those were the words of an angry young man. We did not try to do that. But I do stand by the description--I don't even believe there is a purpose served in the word "war criminal." I really don't. But I stand by the rest of what happened over there, Tim.

I mean, you know, we--it was--I mean, we've got to put this war in its right perspective and time helps us do that. I believe very deeply that it was a noble effort to begin with. I signed up. I volunteered. I wanted to go over there and I wanted to win. It was a noble effort to try to make a country democratic; to try to carry our principles and values to another part of the world. But we misjudged history. We misjudged our own country. We misjudged our strategy. And we fell into a dark place. All of us. And I think we learned that over time. And I hope the contribution that some of us made as veterans was to come back and help people understand that.

I think our soldiers served as nobly, on the whole, as in any war, and people need to understand that. There were great sacrifices, great contributions. And they came back to a country that didn't thank the veteran, that didn't--I mean, everything that the veteran gained in the ensuing years, Agent Orange recognition, post-Vietnam stress syndrome recognition, the extension of the G.I. Bill, you know, improvement of the V.A. hospitals, all came from Vietnam veterans themselves fighting for it. Indeed, even the memorial in Washington came from that.

[...]

MR. RUSSERT: The folks who oversaw the war, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Henry Kissinger, you do not now 30 years later consider them war criminals?

SEN. KERRY: No, I think we did things that were tantamount that certainly violated the laws of war, but I think it was the natural consequence of the Cold War itself. People made decisions based on their perceptions of the world at that time. They were in error. They were judgments of error. But I think no purpose is served now by going down that road. I think, you know, the rhetoric of youth and of anger can be redeemed by the acts that we put in place after time to try to move us beyond that. And I think there are great lessons to learn from it. But we would serve no purpose with that now. But we have to be honest about the mistakes we made. We don't have legitimacy in the world, Tim, if we go to other countries, in Bosnia or China or anywhere else, and not say, "You know, we made some terrible mistakes."
hnn.us...

[edit on 04/10/15 by GradyPhilpott]

GP, sorry, "the evidence is all over the internet"? So is the proof that hitler, Saddam, Bush, Elvis, and an alien had a huge orgy with 50 sheep, on the internet.........

Also, the government said it happened, so did the military, not just Kerry. So, Kerry/Government?Military said it happened, proof it happened is there, but you say www.Kerryshoulddie.com says Kerry lied so he lied? If all the republicans told you Kerry was going to eat your baby would you believe them?

And sensfan, if no one showed intrest in my post, why did you post? Nice to know no one but Bushies still think Kerry/Government/Military/evidence lied. The other 75% will go and vote for Kerry, and Bush will use the Supreme Court again and win 5-4.

Originally posted by James the Lesser

Also, the government said it happened, so did the military, not just Kerry. So, Kerry/Government?Military said it happened, proof it happened is there, but you say www.Kerryshoulddie.com says Kerry lied so he lied? If all the republicans told you Kerry was going to eat your baby would you believe them?

No one has ever proven or admitted that atrocities were committed in Vietnam, as a matter of policy, because it is just untrue. No one with any integrety would claim that there were not atrocities committed and they were documented and prosecuted.

What I would like to know, O! Lesser One, is where is your outrage at the millions of Southeast Asians who did die as a result of communst policy.

GP! I am going to use google, and give you the facts. The military/government/Kerry said it happened, and as others have stated before, it did happen. Sensfan as an example, and on other people's topics they even name specific slaughters that Kerry said happened, the government said happened, and the military said happened.

www.townhall.com...
Here is one, damn google has alot about the swifties, either "Swift Boat ads false" or "Swift Boat ads an atrocity(sp?) and downright republican smear campaign.

[edit on 16-10-2004 by James the Lesser]