In the U.S. we don't learn about the people who cultured this land for thousands of yrs, why?

With discoveries like this

Fossilized human feces and other evidence from a West Coast cave demonstrates the existence of a long-lost, 13,500-year-old American culture, scientists said Thursday. The fossilized feces, known to researchers as a coprolite, from the Paisley Caves in Oregon has turned assumptions about the history of the Americas on its ear.

“Coprolites are as good as a human skeleton,” Dr. Thomas Stafford, Jr. of Stafford Research Laboratories said during a briefing for science journalists. This particular one left him stunned.

Fox News

Along with a couple other pieces of info, this is pretty much it....... There some isolated reports and small studies have been done, but im talking about learning it in school or general knowledge, who they were and how they developed. Other countries have been thoroughly excavated yet not much at all has been looked into our land.

13,000 yrs old with arrow heads and other artifacts? That's a really big discovery, much before Egyptians, Sumerians, etc. Who were these people, what was there culture and who did they become? if the same people stayed from 13,000 years ago to when Christopher Columbus "discovered" the native Americans then one could probably learn a lot about human development through that period.

Since we consider 4 thousand year old Sumerians and (other cultures from around this time), to be first really cultured developed people with writing, agriculture, math, astronomy, should make people really wonder. This people would have been here for thousands of years before this point of intelligence and they are still here today. Imagine what we could learn if it was the same indigenous people for all these years.........

It was would be amazing and I would bet there was some awesome cultures with their own ways of life and traditions. Imagine the very ground under your floor where you sit now, layers down there was once a great people with their own kings and rituals and legends. Imagine what the ground would tell you if it could talk?

What ancient culture is hidden under your feet?

Cultural imperialism is still prevalent.

Why would you give credence to a culture that runs counter to the very culture advanced capitalism thrusts upon us.

Doesn't make good business sense to promote cultures that advocated a harmony with nature and taking only what you need. Or promoting a unified family structure. You need to fracture the populous, so each generation finds it more and more difficult to relate to the next - as this creates new markets to exploit.

It's a shame. In school you pretty much stop learning about our past when Columbus sailed over, thanksgiving day, Pocahontas... They fail to mention how many Indians died as a result of this pilgrimage, an estimated 90-95% of the indigenous people were killed from the smallpox disease the pilgrims carried.... Add to that how many were killed from that point to when the cowboys and indians stopped fighting?? Whole peoples history that could possibly date 13,000 plus years erased from the world???

I made this thread because this thought came up in a conversation and led to me thinking i wonder how the world feels about our short history and if they too wonder who was here before or could they possibly know through ancient trade routes etc?

I must know .....We must know

Could we look into Mayan trade history and find stories of trade with people from the north? And one must remember the Mayan culture doesn't date back 13,000 years as far as I'm aware, not even close. So whoever was here must have had things pretty well figured out before Mayans enter history books so stories should exist.

I almost choked on my soda to see what the item of evidence is they..ahem..hold up...as the magic proof.

However, I love your OP and agree entirely. The whole world shows major civilization starting, appearing or whatever between 11,400 and about 12,500 years ago. Whatever happened before that...it seems almost like a reset from my lay level of knowledge.

All the other continents show some sign of things along the way since....except ours. We don't have Pyramids or great mysterious forms from the past. No enormous networks of tunnels from that period and since like Peru, Turkey and parts of Europe.

What all do we actually know about our own past as Americans here? The Indians were too primitive, no offense everyone, to represent the end result of 11,000 years of ongoing living. The other continents would seem to show how that went for the comparison. Just, not here. So indeed,,,, who did occupy this land for those thousands of years and where did anything they ever did, go?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Thanks, it's interesting right? These people most likely had their own great achievements in architecture, religious philosophy, land arrogation, and everything else we look at with wonder in other ancient people. What miracles did their "gods" perform, was it an astrology based society like many other ancient cultures,

Did they sail and populate and trade? How was land separated and how many different cultures resided in the upper 48 and where?

What happened to the Native Americans has to be hidden. Royalty and religion would have a lot of explaining to do.

Since they existed for so long, before writing and social structure etc, can we see these drastic developments in fossil records? They were here 9,000 years before the time we consider the first advanced cultures popped up around the world, social structure, metal working, can we watch this sudden transformation in the fossil record?

Would be a good place to have a culture stay somewhat the same without much influence from other cultures or cross breeding with travelers etc because I never hear of the Americas in ancient trade routes or reports of goods from the Americas etc until recent history.

So it would be a really stable genetic line from before recorded ancient history, right through ancient history, and possibly to today with a culture of people we don't know much about....... Native Americans could be descendents of the same people who pooped this 13,000 yr old poop =)

Awesome for science imo

At least three other Western sites – Cooper’s Ferry in Idaho and Nevada’s Smith Creek Cave and Bonneville Estates Rockshelter – also contain only Western Stemmed points in deposits of this age. “From our dating, it appears to be impossible to derive Western Stemmed points from a proto- Clovis tradition,” Dr Jenkins explained. “It suggests that we may have here in the Western United States a tradition that is at least as old as Clovis, and quite possibly older. We seem to have two different traditions co-existing in the United States that did not blend for a period of hundreds of years.”

The origin of humans in the Americas has long suggested early migration out of Siberia and eastern Asia, very possibly across a temporary land bridge between Russia and Alaska. In more recent years, Dr Jenkins’ colleague Dr Jon Erlandson has been building evidence – a lot of it emerging from the Channel Islands off California – of a Late Pleistocene sea-going people following a “kelp highway” from Japan to Kamchatka, along the south coast of Beringia and Alaska, then southward down the Northwest Coast to California. Kelp forests are rich in seals, sea otters, fish, seabirds, and shellfish such as abalones and sea urchins.

The new study doesn’t address the routes early migrants may have taken, but the additional evidence found in the DNA of the coprolites continues to point to Siberia-east Asian origins

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
Cultural imperialism is still prevalent.

Why would you give credence to a culture that runs counter to the very culture advanced capitalism thrusts upon us.

Doesn't make good business sense to promote cultures that advocated a harmony with nature and taking only what you need. Or promoting a unified family structure. You need to fracture the populous, so each generation finds it more and more difficult to relate to the next - as this creates new markets to exploit.

Man you sure do get most of your understanding about this issue from movies.

Yea they only took what they needed.....like the the slave trade that flurished in north america long before the whites got here.

And at one with nature? Just dont get your hunting party cought on anyother tribes hunting grounds. Those bow and arrows were not for hunting only friend.

For an real look at how the tribes treated each other see the History of the Shawnee people and their relationship with other tribes east of Mississippi.

Originally posted by tamusan
What happened to the Native Americans has to be hidden. Royalty and religion would have a lot of explaining to do.

Please read about the French and Indian Wars. Note the Native use of European powers and influence to further their own tribal wars and political machinations, lust for European trade goods and technologies.

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
Cultural imperialism is still prevalent.

Why would you give credence to a culture that runs counter to the very culture advanced capitalism thrusts upon us.

Doesn't make good business sense to promote cultures that advocated a harmony with nature and taking only what you need. Or promoting a unified family structure. You need to fracture the populous, so each generation finds it more and more difficult to relate to the next - as this creates new markets to exploit.

Man you sure do get most of your understanding about this issue from movies.

Yea they only took what they needed.....like the the slave trade that flurished in north america long before the whites got here.

And at one with nature? Just dont get your hunting party cought on anyother tribes hunting grounds. Those bow and arrows were not for hunting only friend.

For an real look at how the tribes treated each other see the History of the Shawnee people and their relationship with other tribes east of Mississippi.

While he did use strong language you failed to argue his point. It's true there is very little known of any of these different ancient cultures, why? A few scientist here, few reports there, largely independent studies into our own land we've come to make great. How great was it before?

No real in depth scientific effort has been made by multiple agencies to discover, review, and un earth our lands ancient secrets.... This can be taken as fact imo so the question is why? Idc if its simple as a lack of funding or serious as a conspiracy but we should ask why and we should want to know.

reply to post by Silo4


I beg to differ. There is a great deal, piles and stacks of reading about the old cultures. Mound builders being just on. Gotta wounder if you even know what you are talking about.

reply to post by Logarock


Sources?

There is no general knowledge I'm aware of that is in depth of these cultures and agreed with in the scientific community. I've never learned anything in school other than pilgrims thanksgiving etc.

There are studies and theories on the Clovis culture, pretty much far back as we know. Still much speculation on many aspects of these people. Much more unknown than known.

As for the Mound builders you mention, the most complete and thorough reference on these mounds came from Ephraim G. Squier in 1848. Still the most referred to and complete work on this subject. Come on now, thats ancient technology looking into this. You think thats a well covered topic?

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
Cultural imperialism is still prevalent.

Why would you give credence to a culture that runs counter to the very culture advanced capitalism thrusts upon us.

Doesn't make good business sense to promote cultures that advocated a harmony with nature and taking only what you need. Or promoting a unified family structure. You need to fracture the populous, so each generation finds it more and more difficult to relate to the next - as this creates new markets to exploit.

Man you sure do get most of your understanding about this issue from movies.

Yea they only took what they needed.....like the the slave trade that flurished in north america long before the whites got here.

And at one with nature? Just dont get your hunting party cought on anyother tribes hunting grounds. Those bow and arrows were not for hunting only friend.

For an real look at how the tribes treated each other see the History of the Shawnee people and their relationship with other tribes east of Mississippi.

I'm glad you posted.... I constantly see people parade the native Americans around as if they were some sort of unparalleled example of harmony and goodness. It's just no true. They had all the issues most societies have, they weren't some perfect little civilization.

Was it awful what the Europeans did to the Natives? Absolutely. But I'm so sick and tired of people putting the Natives on a pedestal as if they were above the normal stuff that comes along with being humans. They engaged in war, they killed, raped, stole, tortured, all before Columbus got here.

No, they aren't some enlightened people, they are just people, that's it. Just because something horrible was done to them doesn't mean before that they were somehow the perfect example of how to live in peace and harmony.

I think the main reason they don't dig too deep into the history of North America is because the standard view of history will start to come crumbling down. Mainstream science would have everyone believe that the people who were here when Columbus arrived are the ONLY people who were ever here, that they were the first inhabitants of this land.

Before it was shoved in their face to the point of no longer being able to deny it, mainstream science still insisted that Columbus was the first and only one to come to North America. All the evidence of journeys to America from other parts of the world that predated Columbus were denied and ignored until recently. Why Columbus is still a name that has any importance is beyond me... the Vikings were here before Columbus. Don't have a Viking day do we? There is evidence various Asian peoples also traveled via boat to North America long before Columbus.

The Cocaine Mummy also proves there was trade between South America and Africa far before mainstream science admits to.

Just like it's becoming more accepted to talk about explorers coming to America before Columbus, I believe as time passes it will also be more acceptable to talk about the people of different genetic makeup that settled North America before, or at least the same time as the "Native" Americans.

That's just my opinion... mainstream science just hates being proven wrong, so they don't want to dig too deep. Because they know they will find a plethora of evidence that proves they have been talking BS for decades.

reply to post by Silo4


Well there is and there is not a lot of information out there. Ask yourself why that is.


It is not because someone is trying to suppress the information from you. It is because we really do not know more than we do. The reasons are simple. Funding, funding to archeologists to dig and travel, interests to allow those archeologists to dig and travel, as well as poaching of artifacts.


First you need interest in such studies that will cause someone to want to back it with funds. You do not have enough interest for this; people today are worried about getting rich and/or famous. Other reasons you have little interest is the mix of culture. That is right look at how many nationalities live within the U.S. today. For the most part if it does not look back to their heritage they do not care. Sure there are a few of us that care, we do so because it involves out families.


Second the funding. Without grants and money backing someone to do this they are not going to be able to take the time and do the digging or the studies. Many reasons for this is land, growing up in the farm land I can almost point out areas where there were villages that natives lived in by looking at the land. I learned this from my father who was respectful in his hunt and collection of artifacts. A lot of farmers plow up artifacts every year, when they do the coming rains unearth more stuff. Then they get reburied and unearthed again and end up damaged. Farmers are not going to want to give up their land without the profit they would get from crops. In this area for sure a lot of farm land is in the same areas native villages were simply because of water tables. The natives new the best place to live was near resources. Take a look in the woods and you will see something that did not look like it did before current man took over. Look in, see the under growth? The natives cleared all that with fire regularly so that hunting was easier.

Anyway back to funds. You need land to dig in order to find artifacts to study. You cannot get any of that without funds. No interests equals no funds. Get people off their Xboxes and FaceBook and you might get interest but doubtful. The sad truth is no one cares anymore, they want technology, not dusty old artifacts.


Finally there is poaching. Of course you do have some that are still interested though most are older and their numbers are thinning. There are those who buy artifacts to add to their personal collection. Some ask questions about where the stuff comes from because it is about education and science for them. These people buy from reputable dealers. Then you have those that just want stuff that no one else has. This is not your arrowheads, axe heads, knives, or anything that is commonly found by the average collector (like my father was). No these are the people who want skulls, skeletons, and the really rare and mint artifacts that hold the most scientific value. They do not care about the history or the scientific value though, they care about the monetary value and the rarity of the thing.


My father was into collecting native artifacts. I am more into fossils. The things I mention above are the same throughout though. Of course fossils get a bit more funding but the interest is only in dinosaurs for the most part. No one really wants to talk about 450 million year old brachiopods, or crinoids. The worst part is the poaching though. Yep they have that in fossils and native artifacts. People who care for nothing but profit. Look at all the shows on TV today. The reality TV is filled with money making shows, people buying this and flipping that. I seen one show where they bought a storage unit that had some fossils in it. The cheap crap that priced right so that they hooked people (they gave these prices first) then they lay a load of crap out as a price for something you can see on eBay for ten times less. It is cheap because it is reconstructed stuff, not found as is. Today there is a huge market on faked fossils with Morocco and China as two of the biggest areas.

There has been a lot of talk from different angles on another forum dealing with this stuff about reality TV shows wanting to start up for fossils. It angers me because it seems it will end up the way of the other reality TV shows and end up ruining it for everyone as poachers increase and property owners shut down their land to people who want to learn.

It might sound as if I am a bit off topic when I bring up the fossils, but trust me it is the same area. The only thing in the U.S. that will get funding is dino digs for the most part because kids love dinos. Heck most adults still love dinos.

Sadly though the natives and those of us with heritage that is native are of little interest to the rest of the U.S. It is not a government conspiracy here, it is your fellow man who thinks native history is unimportant. After all you never hear of the native end time calendar, or the pyramids they built, or....well you get where I am going.


Raist

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
Cultural imperialism is still prevalent.

Why would you give credence to a culture that runs counter to the very culture advanced capitalism thrusts upon us.

Doesn't make good business sense to promote cultures that advocated a harmony with nature and taking only what you need. Or promoting a unified family structure. You need to fracture the populous, so each generation finds it more and more difficult to relate to the next - as this creates new markets to exploit.

Well said. I was going to post something similar. So my simple answer to the OP's question...

Because they have to maintain the illusion that capitalism is growth and prosperity, rather than boom and bust as it really is.

reply to post by Silo4


And yet so many Caucasian Americans use Native American symbols for your sports teams!

Its simple, America teaches its children America is the land of the free and home of the brave. It teaches children how America is the worlds greatest nation, with the greatest freedoms and the greatest democracy there is and many brave men throughout history have given there lives to ensure this. Sound good?, great!

Now, how easy would it then be to explain the very same America conducted a genocidal war against the native peoples in the pursuit of profiteering and exploitation of your lands resources and subsequently set about waging war with half the planet under the most formidable militaristic empire the world have ever seen?

Along with a couple other pieces of info, this is pretty much it....... There some isolated reports and small studies have been done, but im talking about learning it in school or general knowledge, who they were and how they developed. Other countries have been thoroughly excavated yet not much at all has been looked into our land.

13,000 yrs old with arrow heads and other artifacts? That's a really big discovery, much before Egyptians, Sumerians, etc. Who were these people, what was there culture and who did they become? if the same people stayed from 13,000 years ago to when Christopher Columbus "discovered" the native Americans then one could probably learn a lot about human development through that period.

Since we consider 4 thousand year old Sumerians and (other cultures from around this time), to be first really cultured developed people with writing, agriculture, math, astronomy, should make people really wonder. This people would have been here for thousands of years before this point of intelligence and they are still here today. Imagine what we could learn if it was the same indigenous people for all these years.........

The biggest problem is the land that was accessible to the tribes migrating into North American is now under water. There are some caves and other areas especially along the pacific NE coast that have offered further insite into the diets, paths other archeological information. For the most part we learn the same stuff in school about those peoples as we do other countries. They covered the mayans, aztecs and incas even more than eygpt when I went to high school.

We're also talking prehistoric people who would give rise to the mesoamerican and native american cultures, so a more accurate measure of comparison is the early homosapiens that were the begining of stoneage cultures. What the Europeans encountered was the advancement of those cultures.

The reason it is not taught in schools is simple. It is a very specific field of study. It has very little relevance to understanding western civilization and honestly, it provides no practical benefits being taught in any measure of depth before college.

Originally posted by Murad
Its simple, America teaches its children America is the land of the free and home of the brave. It teaches children how America is the worlds greatest nation, with the greatest freedoms and the greatest democracy there is and many brave men throughout history have given there lives to ensure this. Sound good?, great!

Now, how easy would it then be to explain the very same America conducted a genocidal war against the native peoples in the pursuit of profiteering and exploitation of your lands resources and subsequently set about waging war with half the planet under the most formidable militaristic empire the world have ever seen?

"History is written by the victors" Winston Churchill

The above quote from winston churchill is quite fitting. The US's handling of the native american affairs is deinitely a dark area of our history, It is not as if the US is hiding the truth behind that history, however, the militaristic nature of the country you are trying to push stems less from the indian wars as much as evolving from the power vaccum out of europe following the world wars and the collapse of the European empires. Every nation that continues to exist must evolve and move on. Every country has its own skeletons

Also, its not like the Native Americans didn't do the same thing between tribes over resources and territory. The europeans coming in were just more effective at it

Originally posted by tamusan
What happened to the Native Americans has to be hidden. Royalty and religion would have a lot of explaining to do.

But its not hidden........
Its common knowledge