Why America Will FAIL without Intervention from YOU!

Now that America will be having 20 Billionaires privately funding election and

hiring private politicians I think we are screwed.

reply to post by PurpleChiten


I understand the passion your history teacher had. I don't think that any small group even working covertly could accomplish anything. In politics, unlike in actual warfare, the little guy or group can't occasionally pull off important wins.

Our founders at least had the luxury of an actual war. Imagine if the world then had no such notion of weapons and war, they would have been doing nothing more than talking about disagreeing and disapproving of the controlling power.

That is all we can ever have in politics. Some small group of discontent, voicing opposition to the controlling powers.

No system can legislate the total abolition of corruption in politicians and in mankind. That is our root problem. The best we can do is make the best, most free system we can assuming that men will be just and right. We pretty much had that at one time.

reply to post by MESSAGEFROMTHESTARS

Man... I agreed with so much of that. Then came the 'We SURE AS HELL can't wait 4 more years' bit...

We can, we will, and as long as people sit there and subscribe to some political paradigm that there is only two candidates, that their voice isn't being heard, and that no one represents them... or that ALL politicians are equal, the same, and not for the people by the people... we will be stuck in the same ole' monotonous, tedious, and destructive behavioral patterns that we've allowed govern us for the past 6,000+ years. The Constitution has addressed many, if not all of these issues... and then we added some unwarranted bells and whistles, and misconstrued what it originally stood for. BUT, it's still number 1 in my book, and it can be restored and recognized for what it truly conveys. Freedom!

I hear you! 4 more years of tyranny though will be the end of us as a nation IMO.

Not everything is 'so in the moment', the time is not now, not tomorrow, not this election, or the previous one.... The time has always been, this means that there is an evolutionary aspect, a revolutionary one if you want. Which still does not remove what the Constitution stands for, but further defends it, for it represents said evolution.

The time for change must come soon in some form because, as I’ve stated, we can’t do 4 more years and expect to rebound….we’re too far in the hole NOW.

I guess it's all based on experiences... I know I've experienced just about every hardship one can be subjected to, yet... I'm doing darn well, happy as a clam(something like that), and very optimistic about my and future generation's future.

Me too, but would that be the case after the economic collapse that will result from 4 more years; I say NO?

I still say we're destined for greatness, and work everyday to achieve it... nothing will ever warrant a comment that even comes close to resembling " We SURE AS HELL can’t wait 4 more years if "... because... guess what? We can, and if it's that terrible.... WE WONT

I appreciate your optimism and resolve!

Thanks for the posts!

reply to post by seabag

Here’s my proposition and I’d like to get your take.

What if we FORCE a complete reset, demand that any/every newly formed party be allowed to form and be represented, drop the electoral college, install NEW voting laws and practices for fairness, then go to a popular vote?

We can have a nationwide/all party primary; every party gets a candidate but you have to meet a minimum vote count to move on. Then we move to the general election with the parties that survived and we find a POTUS by MONITORED popular vote election?

Force? Let me guess.... by force?

If you may, please clarify this....

Drop the electoral college... ok.

Replace it with what, dare I ask? Did you just go as far to suggest popular vote?

Move on to a general election with parties that survived... What The _____(insert at will)!?!

If I have to break that down... I fear the worst.

What is this partisan notion behind the structure of all this? I'm a little confused...

Are you for, or against partisan politics? A committed membership to a political party... oh man, I swear sometimes ATS!

reply to post by neo96

We are so far removed from the forefathers it is not even funny we have been left a legacy and we have disgraced their memories all for empty promises, and sweet nothings whispered in our ears.

We shame all those who have become before us.

Damn right we have…

I’m trying to redeem myself!

reply to post by seabag


Like I said, we choose the option that breaks the system quicker. I have voice my choice for that option before. I think both options will screw it up, but Obama is the one who will screw it up the fastest. He gets my vote this year.

In the 2008 election, I made a defensive vote. I voted for McCain. I thought he was a piss poor choice, but Obama just was frightening. It was after that and seeing things worsen, I realized that the system could never be fixed. So this time around I am going to be negatively proactive. If there is a hope for anything, it is for the system to fall and just maybe, free and responsible people can start anew.

reply to post by Beanskinner

Now that America will be having 20 Billionaires privately funding election and

hiring private politicians I think we are screwed.

It’s been about money for a LONG time…

Nothing new this year!

I guess you didn’t have this objection in 08’??

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by Beanskinner

 

Now that America will be having 20 Billionaires privately funding election and

hiring private politicians I think we are screwed.

It’s been about money for a LONG time…

Nothing new this year!

I guess you didn’t have this objection in 08’??

It has not been this bad, you're fooling yourself, don't make me bust out links

and make you have to start lying in thread where you're trying to be square.

reply to post by MESSAGEFROMTHESTARS

Force? Let me guess.... by force?

If you may, please clarify this....

Like I previously said in this thread…if all of us marched to DC with a few million copies of the Bill of Rights I think that would force the issue.

Drop the electoral college... ok.

Replace it with what, dare I ask? Did you just go as far to suggest popular vote?

I man = 1 vote! What’s wrong with that? Does a wealthy man’s vote count more? What about a black vote? Woman’s vote?

Move on to a general election with parties that survived... What The _____(insert at will)!?!

If I have to break that down... I fear the worst.

What’s the problem? The will of the people will have been served, no?

What is this partisan notion behind the structure of all this? I'm a little confused...

Are you for, or against partisan politics? A committed membership to a political party... oh man, I swear sometimes ATS!

I’m a partisan…I want representation!! What representation do conservatives get in 2012? What about Paulites? What about other groups we haven’t heard from?

We all get screwed now! Do you want the status quo? Sounds like it!

I take it you're cool with Obama?

reply to post by Beanskinner

It has not been this bad, you're fooling yourself, don't make me bust out links

and make you have to start lying in thread where you're trying to be square.

Please do!!

Links (and a point) are good things to bring to a thread on ATS!

Make a point or stop trolling.

reply to post by seabag


There are several "third" parties, but none so far with the wide appeal and smoke to pull off a coup. We need to work on one that concentrates on core values that are of concern to both sides. that could have the added benefit of removing all these niggling side issues and piddling daily new laws from the equation. The key there is to identify the core issues that both can agree upon, and leave local regulation to local governing bodies, rather than giving the Feds control over things they are not connected to.

What if we FORCE a complete reset, demand that any/every newly formed party be allowed to form and be represented, drop the electoral college, install NEW voting laws and practices for fairness, then go to a popular vote?

I'm against a direct popular vote. That smacks too much of the "wolves and a sheep" democracy that Jefferson warned about. I believe the electoral college could be reformed to be in closer accord with the popular will without giving the wolves absolute control of what's for dinner. One step in the right direction would be to return the Senate to State control rather than direct popular elections. There's really no sense and no need to have BOTH the House AND the Senate representing "the people" who vote for them - that was just a side-step of the Constitution to eliminate States rights by taking the State's say in matters out of the equation. In effect, it made the contest of constitutionality between JUST the people and the Federal Government, and removed State's power.

Another great assistance would be real campaign finance reform - eliminate donations by anything other than a verifiable individual, and parcel out government funds to each party on an equal shares basis. No corporate money, no Union money, no lobbyist money. Lobbyists should, in fact, be outlawed altogether, and hanged if caught trying to deal. No NRA lobbying, no AARP lobbying, no corporate lobbying, no Union lobbying, NO LOBBYING, period.

If you want to "lobby" address it to the voters in your ranks, don't buy the politicians. Let them vote for their politicians instead of buying them.

Term limits. No career politicians. After a set period of time, send them home with a thanks, and no pension above subsistence level. Make accepting a job with a company you "helped" as a government official an imprisonable offense, and dissolve any such company that would offer said job. Zap 'em both, politician and corporation. Better yet, limit lawmaking to eliminate corporate benefits from it. We can really get by on very few laws - don't kill anyine without a reason, don't steal, etc.

1500 pages of "regulations" giving some company an unfair advantage, regulations that carry the force of law even though they never, EVER passed through Congress and were instead dreamed up by some bureaucratic functionary, should NEVER be allowed. If I didn't have a chance to vote for a man, he has no business making regulations with the force of law over me - I never agreed to it, and I'll be damned if I pay any attention to it.

Originally posted by seabag
I man = 1 vote! What’s wrong with that? Does a wealthy man’s vote count more? What about a black vote? Woman’s vote?

The founders saw the flaw of a pure democracy. The representative government is a higher form of government. However, this does depend on the integrity and goodness of the representative. In a democracy, every single person has to have the time, intelligence, knowledge and goodness. Clearly an impossibility. However, we might be able to scrounge together a few good men to make decisions on our behalf. That is how and why we have a republic.

However, I think that the electoral college is a crime. As I have said once before in another thread...

Originally posted by seabag
With regards to the office of the President: I think the electoral college should be gone. I disagree with the idea of a popular vote, but I support something near to it. The Presidents role is to represents the collective union, or states, not the individual. As such, each state should get a single vote, determined by popular vote. Each state is weighed equally, as it should be represented equally by the President.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by Beanskinner

 

It has not been this bad, you're fooling yourself, don't make me bust out links

and make you have to start lying in thread where you're trying to be square.

Please do!!

Links (and a point) are good things to bring to a thread on ATS!

Make a point or stop trolling.

The point is money perverts representative democracy -

So the constitution will increasing matter less now that the government becoming a

tool for the most wealthy in society and in the world.

Originally posted by seabag

I see your point and agree that the current system must be toppled before we’re going to get the constitution back but who is going to do that?

Take heart! Either half of Obamney could bring the nation to it's knees and them knock the foundation out from under it. It really doesn't matter whether he's talking out of the left side of his mouth or the right side - it matters only to those whose partisanship is bound up in either one of those sides. The end result could very well be precisely the same, whatever they may be telling you at the moment.

Given the current "choice", the only function of the "left-right" paradigm is to fool people into believing that it's "the other side" to blame, not any real difference in where the blame objectively goes.

reply to post by nenothtu


I like you way of thinking.

In another such discussion, I raised some similar changes I feel are essential to America being in line with the intent and spirit it was founded upon.

Originally posted by Wolf321
Citizenship has not been discussed much here and I think that is an important area. As of now, many people come here illegally or legally and have children here. These resulting anchor babies only cause more difficulty in the immigration/illegal debate. I propose the following: To be a citizen of the USA, one must be born to two citizens, be naturalized, or if born to only one citizen, that citizen must claim citizenship for their child before the child reaches 18. Prohibit dual citizenship for anyone 18 or older. This would prevent anchor babies, foreign vacationers from timing their trips so they have an American citizen child, and conflicting associations with foreign nations.

I agree with term limits for all elected officials. Likewise, prohibiting lifetime perks and such should also not be allowed. ALL FEDERAL employees should only be offered(via employer) the same benefits. If TRICARE and the VA is good enough for servicemen, its good enough for elected officials and federal employees. Should they not opt in at work they can find private insurance elsewhere. And no more pensions after one term. They can put into a retirement like everyone else.

Regarding pay, Congressmen and Senators pay will be based off of a determined national average income. It will be adjusted in accordance to the national average income every two years. A travel allowance will be provided for each session or special sessions and would be calculated from members home to D.C. taking into account the travelers mode of transportation, no first class, no 5 star spa resports, no driver, no limo. I am not sure on any housing issue. I don't know if its better to have some sort of congressional dormatory built or allow a small stipend to cover the cost of housing during the session. I'm leaning towards a facility or multiple facilities.

...

Finally, the standing army as it is too easily abused. Since we are a union of 50 sovereign States, each should have its own “militia”, as initially intended. A federal requirement for the states to maintain a certain level of full time (National Guard) and part time/stand-by (militia) would be included.

The Federal Government would be responsible for financial appropriations of the defense budget as needed to ensure as a whole we have the resources to defend our nation. The primary role for a national level of military would be to centralize and standardize training for the branches of military of all the states, as well as R&D and acquisitions. The federal level would also have control of overseas bases and forces, the Navy as a whole (not the Marine Corps as a whole though,) ICBMs, nuclear weapons, space assets and one continental based Division, Group or whatnot for use in emergencies internally or in accordance with the newer War Powers Resolution. For territorial defense or a declaration of war, all states could be activated up to 75% of a states force, more with governor approval, and coordinated from a central, federal command.

The point is money perverts representative democracy -

The point is this country is not a democracy it is a constitutional republic where equal representation is suppose to exist.

Why America Will FAIL without Intervention from YOU!

Why America is failing is because people have been lied to that this is a country that is suppose to be ran by mob rule. and it is up to you to remind and restore what this nation is suppose to be:

A constitutional Republic.

reply to post by seabag

I hear you! 4 more years of tyranny though will be the end of us as a nation IMO.

Similar statements have been stated through out history... most of which were followed by an eventual revolution or change of sorts regarding the relationship between the then government and its people. Yet, the time interval often suggested(as to how long something can survive) is wildly inaccurate, nor reflects the interval in which said revolutions or changes actually occur.

IMO, we are no where near a point in which the continuance of these practices will be the 'end of us as a nation'. Although, I may lean to agreeing that I may see it in my life time. I give it another 40 -50 years, maybe somewhere around a Newtonian 2060.

'We stay patient as we lay the foundation in a simple composition for the future generations. Peace and Salutations... I'm out'

There's plenty of time... although propaganda sure paints a convincing opposition to this.

The time for change must come soon in some form because, as I’ve stated, we can’t do 4 more years and expect to rebound….we’re too far in the hole NOW.

Not to get all biblical... but we've been in the hole since Eve bit the apple. We just keep digging deeper, and deeper. As we define ourselves, and stick with generalizations... we further destroy love and creation. For you kill art, once you have defined it. It's not until we recognize the beasts for what they truly are and that number of man(666), and go back to the days before the whole tree incident... will we every completely out of the hole.

You dig a hole long enough though, you come out the other side... and see the light again, and break the 7th seal...

and no... i'm no bible thumper or basher, just calls it as I sees it.

Me too, but would that be the case after the economic collapse that will result from 4 more years; I say NO?

I say yes...

Happiness is subjective... I'm not going to sit here and suggest that I am removed from the influences of the economy, but... It is not the determining factor of my happiness, nor will it destroy or 'kill' myself or initiatives. It's not that I've planned for such, but I guess I'm just lucky enough to have a network of people that I feel comfortable enough to claim that I will never be able to claim 'victim of the economy'. That's coming from a person who once claimed 'victim of the economy'... how did I amass such a network? Took a bull by its horns, rubbed its head in its own bull ****, and domesticated the damn thing lol.

Remove you sustainability from the likes of the economy, and you have found freedom, and the US still stands United... which is then the basis for removing the sustainability of the US Government from the economy. Which doesn't mean that all government services are to be done for free, rather... we seriously address exactly what a job in the public sector is to be defined as. There's sooo much to cut, so much garbage... but hey, that's why I say... 'Vote: RON PAUL'.

As to me still doing darn well after an economic collapse... again, step by step...

Take a bull right?
You see those horns?
...


Guess what?

..

What?

rOn PaUl

Shameless

Originally posted by neo96

The point is money perverts representative democracy -

The point is this country is not a democracy it is a constitutional republic where equal representation is suppose to exist.

Why America Will FAIL without Intervention from YOU!

Why America is failing is because people have been lied to that this is a country that is suppose to be ran by mob rule. and it is up to you to remind and restore what this nation is suppose to be:

A constitutional Republic.

edit on 5-6-2012 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

Don't be foolish

America is Republic that elects it's government via representative Democracy.


People have been fooled that the American should be the tool of who ever is rich enough to

buy politicians and policies.

Wealth should not dictate the terms of freedom, that is why we split from England


Sorry

reply to post by Wolf321


You're a dangerous man.

I think that if you and I and a couple of dozen other folks could get together in a smoky tavern back room in Philly, and hash out the details, we'd have a revolution on our hands

Originally posted by MESSAGEFROMTHESTARS

Not that I didn't enjoy your little history recap about different nations addressing civil liberties and freedoms over time... Has the US not addressed these issues?

Yes they address these issues but it depends on the issue. Take a look at the whole Same Sex Marriage battle that America is all undecided on. There are lots of countries where same sex marriage is allowed but America is behind with the times because they can use it to further their agenda of spreading fear and hate.

Next, can you break down the history of slavery and voting laws, and cast a completely ignorant shadow over the shifting paradigms, misrepresenting the underlying notion of a nation that is built on a Constitution that aims to provide the best possible means and avenues of establishing or further defining the rights and freedoms of its citizens.

You mean a constitution that is being taken apart piece by piece by the US Gov? Cause you know they are all about freedom and rights down there, not like they aren't slowly stripping away your Freedom and Rights, oh wait they are. It's not the like the US Gov has been slowly taking away the laws in place in order to cause an economic crash, oh wait it did that and still is messing around with it. Don't get me wrong they are doing all over the world. It's not just the US but they are leading the way.

Don't get you started on our Health Care? BUAHAHAHA. I'm sorry, but to even address this is fruitless... considering you have an apparent dislike for America, I'm guessing 'pro-canadian healthcare' and a progressive nature... put those three together... I will go no further lol.

I'm a duel citizen actually. The only problem I have with the people of America is that they sit on their asses while their government #s the whole world up. My dislike for America lies within it's corrupt, deceitful, lying Government. I call it The War Machine. How can one not dislike the US Gov when you see all the horrific things that they have done and let happen. I hate every other government too because they either don't do anything to stop the US or they are on board with them. Either way the US Gov in its now Hydra state, needs to be brought down. Simple as that.

There's not a single damn thing in between me and my success. Those who take this attitude, and live in America... succeed.

Well I'm glad that you are fortunate enough to have a life that allows for you to achieve your goals. Guess what? There are a lot of people in your country that can't and while you may be fine they are not. I'm sorry but any government who spoon feeds poison and lies to their citizens are trash in my books.

America running on fear? Yeah, no rebuttal there... that tactic is well played by the propaganda machine. Unlike what propaganda you may have observed though... not all US citizens take MSM at face value, and 'don't believe the hype'... there are some critical thinkers out there.

Yes not all of the American citizens are asleep, some are aware of the hell hole they are living in, some more aware then others. What I don't understand is how if you are aware of your governments actions and intentions then why do you do nothing? Why do you live there?

Anyways.... you seem to like to bash the US system, that's great and all... but try experiencing and living it. You think I've never heard Canadians who moved to the US talk about how much better the US is? I mean cmon... I've lived in Minnesota and Wisconsin all my life, those hosers are all over the place(kinda, not really lol). I've heard both opinions as to who's has the best systems and such.

No thanks, I'd rather not live there. If there was a different government in place, sure no problem. Unfortunately your government is leading us all into enslavement so I'd rather not live in the heart of The War Machine.

You know what I like... NO QUEENS PRIVY COUNCIL, that I don't have to utter the words 'Her Majesty', and never have to ever consider such labels as 'ministers of the crown' and 'ROYAL PREROGATIVE' ... get it?

Canadians don't say "her Majesty" unless we were actually addressing her face to face to be polite. As for Minsters of the Crown and all that jazz.

Following the passage of the Statute of Westminster in 1931, however, the empire was divided into autonomous kingdoms under one sovereign, thus returning the monarch to a position similar to that which existed pre-1707, where he or she was ministered by separate cabinets for each respective country. Thus, today no minister of the Crown in any Commonwealth realm can advise the monarch to exercise any powers pertaining to any of the other countries.

Wiki Source
All governments that are in charge right now need to be stopped. Then a complete overhaul of the system.