Is the Bible an Authority?

Who in the Church had the authority to determine which books belonged in the New Testament canon and to make this decision binding on all Christians? If nobody has this authority, then can I remove or add books to the canon on my own authority? Let's say - I like the Book of Thomas and Enoch - can I insert them into the compilation?

If the meaning of the Bible is so clear—so easily interpreted—and if the Holy Spirit leads every Christian to interpret it for themselves, then why are there so many different denominations, and millions of individual Christians, all interpreting the Bible differently?

Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book? How is it we think that Jesus had any religion in mind during his time on earth? Wasn't his concern, his purpose to awaken a group of people to demand change of their religious leaders during that time? If he stood on Earth today, do you think he would recognize Christianity, or deny it as his true intention? Or would his intention become completely new and without attachments to the past? Would such a being embrace all of humanity? Religions be damned?

Other than when John was commanded to write down Revelation, where did Jesus tell any of his apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book? Upon whose say so is the Bible the only and final word? How can something survive if it is not allowed to change and grow with it's culture? Sometimes I wonder if religion was created as a cruel trick, in which it serves to separate us further from Deity, rather than draw us closer to it.

The Bible WAS an authority, but however due to years of manipulation and deliberate deception for control reasons, I know longer consider it valid, I consider it coded with secrets more or less. If you are looking for the real truth, the only place you can truly find it is within. I know it sounds corny, but everyone has an agenda. Dont trust anyone but yourself on such important issues.

reply to post by CirqueDeTruth


To know better about Jesus... you'd have to read the whole New Testament.
In it, however, you can only start to imagine the many misconceptions.
But... here is what I gather; "The Word Made Flesh."
That is Jesus' legacy. That he speaks- "No One Comes To The Father Except Through Him" should be manifested as your deeds according to Christendom. Do good and be mindful of it when you do.
He has many ways of achieving this... so you should as well.

But in the old testament... you can learn of God.
I ignore many of things because it only leads to people who see it and hear it and then they pass judgment on whoever fails to live up to the standards they profess.

BUT:
English Numerology combined with latin aught to smooth things out a bit.

Read:
The Points Of Worship:
XOL LUX = 99.9 (Psalms)
XOL = 66.3 (Psalms)
LUX = 33.6 (Psalms)
VIR = 49.9 (Psalms)
REX = 95.6 (Psalms)
VOX = 46.6 (Psalms)

There are a few others... but I can't post them or they may cause trouble with faith. It is only 4 more.
So don't go guessing about.

reply to post by CirqueDeTruth


One thing I'd like to know, If the bible is god's word of truth and salvation, and all our questions are answered within it's confines, then why does the Vatican have a "secret" library of untouchable books? What is the doctrine hidden within the mystery texts and how could they be helping humanity now, if the knowledge of the made public?

reply to post by CirqueDeTruth


Who said anything about religion was accurate?

The Bible isn't the authority, we are. We are the authority on the Bible, basically determining its meaning and spreading our guesses to the world. We don't know if we're right, but we'd prefer to be right than to not know at all.

After all, we have all the answers, right? The Bible gives us all the answers. If we don't know how to read those answers, and we admit it, then where does that leave us?

Without control. The Church doesn't like that.

reply to post by CirqueDeTruth

If he stood on Earth today, do you think he would recognize Christianity, or deny it as his true intention?

I imagine him shaking his head during a facepalm....
Good Lord.....!!!
no, he would not recognize it.

It is such a far cry from his teachings that it is (imo) shameful, hilarious, and idiotic....alll at once.
Just my $.02.

reply to post by CirqueDeTruth


? Who in the Church had the authority to determine which books belonged in the New Testament canon and to make this decision binding on all Christians?

---The Holy Spirit had the last say. "For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." 2 Peter 1:21 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16

We also know that scripture is Hermetically sealed. Hermes was Enoch. The Seven Rules for rightly dividing truth originates with him, but was carried through the priestly tradition until the Bible was fully compiled. Some books, like Enoch I and Thomas are waiting for this day and age. There are other as well. The Book of Jasher is a good example.

? If nobody has this authority, then can I remove or add books to the canon on my own authority? Let's say - I like the Book of Thomas and Enoch - can I insert them into the compilation?

---You can rightly divide truth as well. It must agree with the Torah and the Law. Jesus often referred to Psalms as the Law.

If the meaning of the Bible is so clear—so easily interpreted—and if the Holy Spirit leads every Christian to interpret it for themselves, then why are there so many different denominations, and millions of individual Christians, all interpreting the Bible differently?

---The Bible is only accurately interpreted when pride is removed and we see through the eyes of Christ. Jesus is the Living Word, not the words on the page. The words are a mirror. Both God and man are in the mirror. Depending on how a person has moved along the paths of truth, the Bible will either be words on a page or rightly divided truth. There is no easy button. Scripture is literal, historical and symbolic on many interconnected levels. It does not simply speak one truth. It is holographic and has layers like an onion. The core of truth is love.

Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?

---He didn't need to. He is the author and the Word. A word is information. The three persons of the Trinity are Father (Light), Son (Word / Wave / Law / Information) and Holy Spirit (Consciousness). We are inside a created image of Time, Space, Matter and Energy. We are the image of God. Light is both a particle and a wave. Light makes matter what it is.

Genesis 1:1

In the Beginning (Time), God created the heavens (Space) and the earth (Matter). Let there be light (Energy).

1:27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

Consciousness is added to matter and then we are the reflection of God in the three persons of the Trinity. This, of course, is simplistic. It's much more than this. We are baptized four times. Earth (dust / Matter), Air (Nitrogen and Oxygen / Breath of God), Water (Baptism / Immersion into reality) and Fire (Trials). The water is salvation from the trial (Final Judgment).

? How is it we think that Jesus had any religion in mind during his time on earth?

----He said the WAY is narrow. Exoteric is the church dogma. Essoteric is spirituality. Both are extremes. Jesus said the path and the way is narrow--between.

Wasn't his concern, his purpose to awaken a group of people to demand change of their religious leaders during that time?

----His sheep already know His voice. He will go after the last one that is lost. Clearly, there are those who do not hear and cannot see. You are asking questions and I will assume you are longing for truth.

If he stood on Earth today, do you think he would recognize Christianity, or deny it as his true intention?

----He is on/in/through Earth. He is the Wave of all physics. He is the image of the first born Son.

1 Colossians 1:

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

? Or would his intention become completely new and without attachments to the past? Would such a being embrace all of humanity?

----All eyes will see. All knees will bow. All 7 billion souls are baptized by Elijah into the water to see Christ return. Follow the link in my signature. Read the article on water baptism.

? Other than when John was commanded to write down Revelation, where did Jesus tell any of his apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book?

----Holy Spirit. 666 is Carbon. Carbon has 6 electrons, 6 protons and 6 neutrons.

Upon whose say so is the Bible the only and final word?

----You will when you study to show yourself approved by God. We must all do the work to find the Hidden God. He must remain hidden for our belief to be faith. Once you see using the Bible as the root, all other sources you read will reveal both truth and the counterfeit wrapped within. No word can be used unless there is some form of truth within. Counterfeit truth is too easy to spot on its own.

How can something survive if it is not allowed to change and grow with it's culture?

----We grow up as children of God. When we are no longer children, we see him face to face.

1 Corinthians 13

11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Originally posted by dtaonats
The Bible WAS an authority, but however due to years of manipulation and deliberate deception for control reasons, I know longer consider it valid, I consider it coded with secrets more or less. If you are looking for the real truth, the only place you can truly find it is within. I know it sounds corny, but everyone has an agenda. Dont trust anyone but yourself on such important issues.

What activities do you recommend - in realizing this truth?

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by CirqueDeTruth

 

Who said anything about religion was accurate?

The Bible isn't the authority, we are. We are the authority on the Bible, basically determining its meaning and spreading our guesses to the world. We don't know if we're right, but we'd prefer to be right than to not know at all.

After all, we have all the answers, right? The Bible gives us all the answers. If we don't know how to read those answers, and we admit it, then where does that leave us?

Without control. The Church doesn't like that.

I don't agree that the bible has all the answers. I'm still at the conclusion that the bible was written by man. It may have been divinely inspired (who am I to say it wasn't) - but it still has been through interpretation after perception after interpretation.

I am fascinated in how people feel that they can judge another because a book say's it's so. Especially when it is so obviously wrong to do! I'm not a veteran here, but already I enjoy creating posts and playing devil's advocate. At least it puts forth some variety.

Originally posted by Pinocchio
reply to post by CirqueDeTruth

 

There are a few others... but I can't post them or they may cause trouble with faith. It is only 4 more.
So don't go guessing about.

Indeed? I insist on knowing now! What are the other four? I don't possibly know how I'd go guessing about...

reply to post by EnochWasRight


I merely enjoy debate and am interested in Christian ideology. Some concepts that Christians hold I find to be very extreme.

I am always seeking knowledge which leads to a deeper understanding and awareness of truth. It can be found everywhere. At least, I see it everywhere. Our heritages are rich with diversity and excitement. Plus, we live in a time where this information can easily be shared amongst the differing faiths.

(Stars for your post by the way. You took the time to address each question I posed as a challenge. Thank you.)

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
---The Holy Spirit had the last say. "For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." 2 Peter 1:21 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16

So which bible did the holy spirit have the last say about? The Catholic Bible (73 books), The Protestant Bible (66 books), or the Ethiopian Bible (81 books)?

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
--The Bible is only accurately interpreted when pride is removed and we see through the eyes of Christ. Jesus is the Living Word, not the words on the page. The words are a mirror. Both God and man are in the mirror. Depending on how a person has moved along the paths of truth, the Bible will either be words on a page or rightly divided truth. There is no easy button. Scripture is literal, historical and symbolic on many interconnected levels. It does not simply speak one truth. It is holographic and has layers like an onion. The core of truth is love.

And who determines whether or not the interpreter has removed pride? How would you go about correcting everyone in all the different denominations who have interpreted things differently? How would you know you were right and they are wrong?

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
----He said the WAY is narrow. Exoteric is the church dogma. Essoteric is spirituality. Both are extremes. Jesus said the path and the way is narrow--between.

That reminds me, there is a church down the road from me with a message on their sign that says, "Tickets to the Broad Way" on it. I guess they don't know that the broad way leads to destruction, lol.

Originally posted by CirqueDeTruth
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

I merely enjoy debate and am interested in Christian ideology. Some concepts that Christians hold I find to be very extreme.

I am always seeking knowledge which leads to a deeper understanding and awareness of truth. It can be found everywhere. At least, I see it everywhere. Our heritages are rich with diversity and excitement. Plus, we live in a time where this information can easily be shared amongst the differing faiths.

(Stars for your post by the way. You took the time to address each question I posed as a challenge. Thank you.)

edit on 14-4-2012 by CirqueDeTruth because: finish thought

I was formally Superiored until ATS made me change my username. You would likely enjoy a past thread of mine on the Gospel of Thomas.

Thomas Thread

Find all the truth you can apart from the Bible. Just remember that there is no truth apart from the Bible. Subtract the source and the rest is meaninglessly disconnected. Nothing rises above its source. All things flow from a source that is greater than what flows.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
I was formally Superiored until ATS made me change my username. You would likely enjoy a past thread of mine on the Gospel of Thomas.

Ah cool, glad to have you back!

reply to post by Hydroman

So which bible did the holy spirit have the last say about? The Catholic Bible (73 books), The Protestant Bible (66 books), or the Ethiopian Bible (81 books)?

The Living Word. The Bible is a reflection. It's a mirror that shows both man and God. We see through this mirror dimly. This does not mean that a deeper truth cannot be found if you look beyond the surface and waves of the ocean we think we know. There is a literal way of looking at the world that only reveals which aspect you see by your own eyes. If you are of a materialistic perspective, the thoughts you give life to will be there looking back at you. The same is true for the person with spiritual eyes to see. The true word is locked behind the literal words. The symbols show the true meaning and no amount of linguistic translation can hide the symbols. They are hermetically sealed.

The second place you will find the Word is written on your heart. Look in this reflection and tell me which is positive and which is negative.

Aliester Crowley (Freemason) said, ""Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law"

Jesus said, "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." Matt 7:12

To know the truth, check the intent. If the intent is to take for self, the truth you follow is the lie from a deception. If the intent is to give from love, the truth you follow is from God. See it in the mirror. What do you see if you look in the mirror? Yourself. What are you seeing? Check again:

LINK

Your heart should tell you that giving is superior to taking. The world says do what you want and take all you can. God says to suffer for others and give all you can while you are alive. True reward comes by giving. Work at a job and receive the reward of your labor. This is giving toward the reward that is earned. Smoke and get cancer. This is an example of taking a reward that is not earned. A debt is created and you will suffer as a result. Suffer on purpose and reward follows.

Which type of action do you suppose reflects the true Word on your heart?

reply to post by Hydroman

That reminds me, there is a church down the road from me with a message on their sign that says, "Tickets to the Broad Way" on it. I guess they don't know that the broad way leads to destruction, lol.

Go to that church. Attend a service and find out. God will speak to you if you only knock and seek.

reply to post by CirqueDeTruth


You want to learn about Jesus... Start reading the bible at Matthew... and stop and the end of John...

You want to learn about religion.... thats what the rest of the bible is for...

My opinion... read what actually counts... read about him.

Don't waste your time with the rest... though i admit the entire book is an amazing read

Most of the books of the New Testament aren't even believed to be written by Jesus’ disciples themselves, but by churches that they founded quite often decades if not centuries after the actual event in order to give themselves some kind of legitimacy. Source

All following ‘ancient’ documents, by notable scholars, monks, priests, and even kings has been based on these, which in turn makes them flawed. Sounds like a house built upon a foundation of sand, rather than a foundation of rock to me Matthew 7:24-27

reply to post by Akragon


I've read the bible. More than once and extensively in part. I'm more interested in dialogue about the concepts of the bible and Christianity.

In truth, I'm an outside perspective as I am not Christian. However, I'm an open-minded and tolerant sort of person - and I genuinely enjoy religious debate. But I don't come here to find a religion or because I'm lost spiritually or some other false assumption somebody might have. To clarify - I simply enjoy discussing ideas and concepts regarding religion, spirituality, and the paranormal. I am not a candidate for conversion, as I can't be Christian, I disagree with a LOT of the bible and don't believe it's an authority on anything. That being said, I still enjoy studying it as one of the worlds belief traditions. I just don't agree that it is infallible.

reply to post by CirqueDeTruth
Athanasius - Bishop of Alexandria, 312–328, would be the answer to the question of where we get the New Testament canon. He decided he would enforce which books were allowed to be read in the churches over which he had jurisdiction.
His list is the same list you would see on the Table of Contents for the New Testament in any modern Bible.
Informed people today can make whatever list they want since for now the state is not enforcing Bible reading rules unless you live in a backwards country like Israel.
I think of Jesus as a Greek speaking Alexandrian Jew whose family moved to gentile Galilee. He lived there basically under threat of being killed by people he called, the Jews. Apparently he was recognizable as a Jew himself by Samaritans, though in practical terms it only caused the Jews to see him as under their jurisdiction and then able to rightfully kill him under the pretext of degrading the purity of their belief system.