To those that call themselves Christian

reply to post by Akragon

But the question remains.... Is what paul said valid or not?

He said specifically.... "the written law that kept us bound was CANCELED

Is that statement true... or not?

Your question should be:
'did Paul write that?'
No, that is in Colossians, a forgery, meaning it is made to look like Paul wrote it but it was written after Paul had died.

reply to post by jmdewey60

No, that is in Colossians, a forgery, meaning it is made to look like Paul wrote it but it was written after Paul had died

But is there any agreement among christians regarding the forged works?
Some go by everything attributed to Paul as if Paul indeed wrote it.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

There is an agreement among scholars concerned with that issue,
on which books were most likely written by Paul, and
Colossians is not on that list.
the ones that are practically universally accepted are:
Romans
1 and 2 Corinthians
Galatians
Philippians
1 Thessalonians
Philemon.

The ten commandments are part of the New Covenant.

reply to post by Akragon


Yes. He full filled the old law , the Torah , and created a new covenant through the reign of Christ. Christ was around in the old testament , but his blood was not yet shed to fulfill the old laws. Under Christ's reign we are free from bondage , the old law.

----

Christians are dead to the Old Covenant law (the first 5 books of the Bible) which is done away (2Cor 3:7,11), commanded to be cast out (Gal 4:24,30), has been fulfilled and passed (Mat 5:17,18, Luk 24:44, Act 13:29), was and still is faulty (Heb 8:7,8), has decayed and waxed old back in the first century (Heb 8:13), was added until Christ (Gal 3:19), we are no longer under (Gal 3:24,25,5:18; Rom 6:14), has been taken away (Heb 9:1,18,10:9), has ended (Rom 10:4), and was only until John (Luk 16:16).

----

morechristlike.com... (Should make it easier to see the verses)

We are no longer under the law , but under grace of Jesus.

reply to post by milkyway12

. . . but his bled was not yet shed to fulfill the old laws.

What laws was Jesus fulfilling by shedding his blood?
His blood was in relation to the new covenant, not the old, as explained by him at the last supper.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Jesus was rejecting the pharisees in Mathew. They were saying he was nullifying Yahweh's law , but he was not.

The law of the old testament was temporary , but yet still eternal. Yahweh's law never goes away , but he saw the evil in our hearts and gave man an easier way out (hell) per say by giving us the 2nd covenant.

Basically .... all of our "Good" deeds were not anywhere near being righteous enough to make it to heaven.

 Gal 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator

Jesus fullfilled the law by not only Obeying the law perfectly and teaching it perfectly , but he fulfilled all the prophecies in the old covenant and he provides salvation that meets all the requirements of the Yahweh's law.

The only righteousness that fits God standards is the belief in Jesus Christ.

romans 3:21-22
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets ;the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction

reply to post by jmdewey60

originally posted by jmdewey60
Your question should be:
'did Paul write that?'
No, that is in Colossians, a forgery, meaning it is made to look like Paul wrote it but it was written after Paul had died.

Here I am commenting on my own post because it is not clear what I am talking about, and would not be readily understood by anyone who did not go back and trace the thread of conversation that my comment is related to.
I was replying to a post by Akragon who was questioning a reply by NOTurTypical to his earlier question, which was:

originally posted by NOTurTypical
Our debt to the law was nailed to the cross. We fulfil the entire law by following the Law of Love when we are in Christ:

The point of this exercise is to get to the verse I jumped in to make a comment on, which is:
Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (KJV)

To actually make any sense as to why I would lodge an objection, it could be explained in one way by looking at the other post I replied to on this thread, by milkyway12, where he is claiming something which I took to mean, that Jesus shed his blood to satisfy the law (or laws, as he wrote it).
If you read Hebrews, you get a different take on the purpose of Jesus' blood, which was to create, and to put into effect and sanctify, the new covenant. The verse in Colossians might reinforce the point of view apparently taken by milkyway12 and NOTurTypical, which is Jesus' blood was shed in order to satisfy a demand, which is to me (if you were to accept their premise) being made by someone higher than God Himself, which I take to be nothing other than Satan worship.
The correct New Testament interpretation I believe is that Jesus made a new Covenant and it was within God's power to just ignore the old, and God was not forced to have to sacrifice His son to a higher god.
I could make a further comment, that the basic concept behind the Colossians verse may be correct if it is taken a certain way, where it could be a disciple of Paul's who used a Pauline saying, but if Paul would have written that saying in order to have it published generally, he would have qualified it by saying something like, Jesus made the old covenant old by making a new covenant.

reply to post by milkyway12

The law of the old testament was temporary , but yet still eternal. Yahweh's law never goes away , but he saw the evil in our hearts and gave man an easier way out (hell) per say by giving us the 2nd covenant.

The Law was never a "way out" to begin with. The law was given so that "sin would abound". (Romans 5:20) The law never has and never was intended to justify any of us, or as you say to "give us a way out".

The law was given to show us how imperfect we are and in need for Christ's redemption offered.

but he fulfilled all the prophecies in the old covenant

All of the OT prophecies concerning His first coming, yes. Not the OT prophecies concerning His 2nd coming or rule on Earth from Jerusalem. For every prophecy in the OT that dealt with His first coming, there are 7-8 dealing with His 2nd coming. And if all His first coming prophecies were fulfilled literally, then all His 2nd coming prophecies will be fulfilled literally as well.

The entire book is about Jesus, from cover to cover.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by milkyway12

 

The law of the old testament was temporary , but yet still eternal. Yahweh's law never goes away , but he saw the evil in our hearts and gave man an easier way out (hell) per say by giving us the 2nd covenant.

The Law was never a "way out" to begin with. The law was given so that "sin would abound". (Romans 5:20) The law never has and never was intended to justify any of us, or as you say to "give us a way out".

The law was given to show us how imperfect we are and in need for Christ's redemption offered.

but he fulfilled all the prophecies in the old covenant

All of the OT prophecies concerning His first coming, yes. Not the OT prophecies concerning His 2nd coming or rule on Earth from Jerusalem. For every prophecy in the OT that dealt with His first coming, there are 7-8 dealing with His 2nd coming. And if all His first coming prophecies were fulfilled literally, then all His 2nd coming prophecies will be fulfilled literally as well.

The entire book is about Jesus, from cover to cover.

edit on 12-3-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

You and your dear St. Paul have a differing beliefs than God spoken through the prophet Isaiah regarding the reason that the law was given. You say that the law was given so that sin would abound, God said that the law was given to show His righteousness, that we would live in righteousness by following the laws and the glory be to God. Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lamb, it is enough for a servant to be like his master and for a student to be like his teacher. The more of the bible I read, the more I am convinced that Christians are leading people away from God. Get with the program, stop parroting what you are told in the churches and read the bible for yourself, from beginning to end.

reply to post by Wonders


Not the best way to approach reading the bible in my opinion...

I believe people should read about Jesus before diving into the rest of it...

Just my opinion of course

Isaiah 42

The LORD’s Chosen Servant
1 “Look at my servant, whom I strengthen.
He is my chosen one, who pleases me.
I have put my Spirit upon him.
He will bring justice to the nations.
2 He will not shout
or raise his voice in public.
3 He will not crush the weakest reed
or put out a flickering candle.
He will bring justice to all who have been wronged.
4 He will not falter or lose heart
until justice prevails throughout the earth.
Even distant lands beyond the sea will wait for his instruction.[a]”
5 God, the LORD, created the heavens and stretched them out.
He created the earth and everything in it.
He gives breath to everyone,
life to everyone who walks the earth.
And it is he who says,
6 “I, the LORD, have called you to demonstrate my righteousness.
I will take you by the hand and guard you,
and I will give you to my people, Israel,
as a symbol of my covenant with them.
And you will be a light to guide the nations.
7 You will open the eyes of the blind.
You will free the captives from prison,
releasing those who sit in dark dungeons.

8 “I am the LORD; that is my name!
I will not give my glory to anyone else,
nor share my praise with carved idols.
9 Everything I prophesied has come true,
and now I will prophesy again.
I will tell you the future before it happens.”

A Song of Praise to the LORD
10 Sing a new song to the LORD!
Sing his praises from the ends of the earth!
Sing, all you who sail the seas,
all you who live in distant coastlands.
11 Join in the chorus, you desert towns;
let the villages of Kedar rejoice!
Let the people of Sela sing for joy;
shout praises from the mountaintops!
12 Let the whole world glorify the LORD;
let it sing his praise.
13 The LORD will march forth like a mighty hero;
he will come out like a warrior, full of fury.
He will shout his battle cry
and crush all his enemies.
14 He will say, “I have long been silent;
yes, I have restrained myself.
But now, like a woman in labor,
I will cry and groan and pant.
15 I will level the mountains and hills
and blight all their greenery.
I will turn the rivers into dry land
and will dry up all the pools.
16 I will lead blind Israel down a new path,
guiding them along an unfamiliar way.
I will brighten the darkness before them
and smooth out the road ahead of them.
Yes, I will indeed do these things;
I will not forsake them.
17 But those who trust in idols,
who say, ‘You are our gods,’
will be turned away in shame.

Israel’s Failure to Listen and See
18 “Listen, you who are deaf!
Look and see, you blind!
19 Who is as blind as my own people, my servant?
Who is as deaf as my messenger?
Who is as blind as my chosen people,
the servant of the LORD?
20 You see and recognize what is right
but refuse to act on it.
You hear with your ears,
but you don’t really listen.”
21 Because he is righteous,
the LORD has exalted his glorious law.
22 But his own people have been robbed and plundered,
enslaved, imprisoned, and trapped.
They are fair game for anyone
and have no one to protect them,
no one to take them back home.

23 Who will hear these lessons from the past
and see the ruin that awaits you in the future?
24 Who allowed Israel to be robbed and hurt?
It was the LORD, against whom we sinned,
for the people would not walk in his path,
nor would they obey his law.
25 Therefore, he poured out his fury on them
and destroyed them in battle.
They were enveloped in flames,
but they still refused to understand.
They were consumed by fire,
but they did not learn their lesson.
Interestingly enough, the more modern translations don't include the second sentence attached to verse 21. In the old well-worn bible I have here, the second sentence says, "Through it he had planned to show the world he is righteous." I looked for that important bit of information on the web, it's not there and apparently I'm out of luck because this bible doesn't even have the cover anymore so I can't tell what translation it is. But gosh I'll have to look because there were more scriptures to back up God's good reason for giving us the law, and it isn't so that we can be resolved to a life of sin, hiding behind false humility as a scapegoat.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Wonders

 

Not the best way to approach reading the bible in my opinion...

I believe people should read about Jesus before diving into the rest of it...

Just my opinion of course

Well, can you honestly tell me why you believe that?

reply to post by Wonders


The rest of the book isn't really important...

IF you understand the truth first... the rest is easy to read and see what applies and what does not.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Wonders

 

The rest of the book isn't really important...

IF you understand the truth first... the rest is easy to read and see what applies and what does not.

Hmm. You definitely do not have my best interests at heart. Neither do I have yours.

Originally posted by Wonders

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Wonders

 

The rest of the book isn't really important...

IF you understand the truth first... the rest is easy to read and see what applies and what does not.

Hmm. You definitely do not have my best interests at heart. Neither do I have yours.

I would say that is an incorrect statement...

but you're free to believe whatever you like...

reply to post by Wonders

Get with the program, stop parroting what you are told in the churches and read the bible for yourself, from beginning to end.

Except for all those letters written by my "dear St. Paul" of course, correct?

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Wonders

 

Not the best way to approach reading the bible in my opinion...

I believe people should read about Jesus before diving into the rest of it...

Just my opinion of course

His story begins in Genesis. "Seed of the woman".

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Wonders

 

Not the best way to approach reading the bible in my opinion...

I believe people should read about Jesus before diving into the rest of it...

Just my opinion of course

His story begins in Genesis. "Seed of the woman".

I disagree... but if we must "go there"...

what can be learned in Genesis thats relevant to the average person today?

reply to post by Wonders


Wow, thanks for that Isaiah 42 copy/paste, you could have linked it, but anyways....

How were Adam, Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob et cetra justified before God? Moses was yet to be born when they died. How did Noah know what was a "clean" and "unclean" animal for the ark?? That's discussed in Leviticus. You're making me wonder if God is in fact a respecter of persons afterall. He required one thing to be saved at one time, and a completely different thing to others at a different point in time. (Apparently)

You've raised more questions than you have answered Sir!! I always thought He was not a respecter of persons. Hmmm, things to consider!!