Killing babies no different from abortion, experts say

They have an amazing discussion of this subject going on at the Orthosphere.

The exception of children outside the birth canal from abortion-logic was always unprincipled, and its abandonment now is not a deviation from liberalism but a fulfillment of it. “My body, my choice,” if taken as a moral imperative, doesn’t cease to be imperative ten seconds after delivery. After all, the newborn child is still dependent on its mother; dependency doesn’t cease the moment the baby slides squalling into the world. It still represents a constraint on her will and a drain on time and resources she might prefer to spend otherwise. It still represents an obligation, a duty, something transcendent that binds her and makes her unfree, and this liberalism cannot ever permit.

What they seem to be saying is that the baby is objectively ontologically worthless — that subjective valuations are all that can meaningfully be attached to it, and these must necessarily be arbitrary. A mother can decide she wants to keep her baby, but this decision can never be rooted in an objective ontological valuation of the child.

reply to post by discharged77


There is no such thing as an "American Attitude". There are tons of Americans that are against abortions anyway.

You can't generalize 300 million people.

reply to post by Unity_99


Oh my apologies, my post was originally directed at a members post regarding abortion, but I removed his name and quote so it didnt seem like i was attacking him directly.
And you are correct, this isn't an abortion thread (which is nice) and I do believe that this would be absolutely ridiculous to fight about and radically pro choice say "well no it is still their decision!"
no. in this case its a full blown human, regardless of any definition given to the fetus in the womb.

reply to post by Misoir


Very disturbing.

This:

The exception of children outside the birth canal from abortion-logic was always unprincipled, and its abandonment now...

Ummmm.. .no, a few overpaid quacks broke the law promoting murder, and no....our laws are not being abandoned now. I know you didn't write that, someone did and that really was like a big leap.

Pardon me, rather than judge them, I should say, a few who's behavior is worse than quacks.

Well, this alot is depending on where they intend to go with their direction.

Reform abortion laws?

Or

Murder civilians?

reply to post by Unity_99


It is not a "big leap" if you read what was linked to the word "unprincipled". Therein lies the explanation of how this turn of events was to be expected and follows logically from the current state.

reply to post by ka119


I don't believe in mid term or late term abortions. And there is more and more science for cognition at fewer weeks than ever before, in the studies.

I just don't know at this point, what they're trying to prepare for, what direction they are going with this? Is this to limit abortions? Curtail all abortions? Or actually allow murder of infants after delivery?

For that is what is being said, that its not morally wrong.

Originally posted by RealSpoke
reply to post by discharged77

 

There is no such thing as an "American Attitude". There are tons of Americans that are against abortions anyway.

You can't generalize 300 million people.

Sorry bud, i knew someone would say that, I am also American but my parent where born in Russia. I am very aware that all Americans are not ignorant, but as a whole i would have to say that the majority of them have their heads shoved farther up their asses then the rest of the civilized world. Most people in Russia go to church, believe in God and know right from wrong.

Originally posted by MeesterB
It might be easy to be upset by this "expert" opinion because it could lead to killing babies. I kind of welcome it as a way to decide the abortion issue. People lie to themselves in order to make it seem okay just removing a fetus in the womb. Maybe now abortion will be truly synonymous with baby-killing. No more moral dodging or hypocrisy.

Hmmm perhaps this is exactly what they're trying to bring to light, very clever way to approach it if they are.

reply to post by Unity_99


Personally I believe that abortions are to be left up to the woman, and I believe that it is no ones place to tell her differently. However, I would never go around and preach my beliefs because really in the end it doesnt matter, regardless of what others say people will do as they please.

This is different though, I can see how they could tie it into all abortions in that sense but it just doesnt morally sit well with any reasonable human being. Next thing you know we are going to up this "age" limit until all murder is justified.

Originally posted by Unity_99

. Well many of us don't think abortions should be performed, at least in the last 2 trimesters when consciousness develops quickly.

This is outrageous.

conciousness is your criteria as to whether someone is a human being or not. what about a car accident victim who is in a coma. is he no longer a human being.

remember we were all once a fertilized egg. if a fertilized egg is not human, then none of us were ever human.

reply to post by ka119


Yes that has been brought up. Like the elderly next. But most decent elderly would sacrifice themselves for the babies, that is basic, ABC's of life, respect for the children, for true adults, children are the most deserving of protection, though all are equal, for they are the future, and innocents.

Such as in the inuit populations, where the elderly walked off to die of exposure, to ensure that the resources went to the young.

Not that I endorse that at all. But such is the Love and Caring of the elderly towards the young. So those elders SHAME these scientists and academia. As would their own grandparents, in their graves rise up. Shame on them to even speak such evil. They have shamed their own predecessors, their matriarchs, their people, the earth's nations and the star nations by speaking such immature, selfish twaddle.

Are these scientists chinese?

Bad joke. My grandmother would kill me if she saw that. I am pro choice for the simple fact that I have only walked in my shoes, no one elses. There are many on both sides of this debate. IMHO I don't understand why we are continuing to argue over the issue of abortion. We will never be able to agree. Not when there are powerful arguments on both sides. The one thing I hope we can agree on is this: NO child should be deaded AFTER they have entered this world healthy. This isn't a pair of old jeans or an unwanted birthday gift here. Why would you want to carry a child for 9 months only to look at it and say "no, that one's not up to snuff. Toss it out and we'll try it again..."

All I have to say is shame on the people sitting in thier comfy chair passing judgement on those who have abortions. What if a woman was raped? What if the baby was to be born hidiously deformed, lacking basic motor skills and would have no quality of life? I think this is not a simple black or white matter, there are many shades of grey when it comes to abortion. Judge not lest ye be judged.

Originally posted by SteffieJo
reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

 

So that teenage girl who gives birth to her baby in a bathroom, kills it, and then throws it in a dumpster, isn't doing anything wrong? Or does she actually have to take it to a Dr. to kill it? Because that would be the right thing to do. Babies aren't "morally relevant"? This article disgusts me!

Your post is irrelevant. Abortions are (should be) performed before a fetus is fully formed and lacks consciousness. A fully formed baby is different from a fetus. This is abortion we are talking about not infantile murder, and for the pro-lifers who say it is the same, Tell me, how would you feel if you were raped and had to remember the day you were raped every day when you looked into your child's eyes.
A womans choice.

For the young bucks, who are so easily swayed to selfishness and egocentricism, Dog Eat Dog, Survival Of The Fittest, by the NWO, Nazi's, you too are shaming your ancestors, and the nations of the earth and the stars, and the indigenous people, closer to the heart of nature than you will ever understand, who live with cooperation, honor, and in community, and every child is a member of the village. Its teamwork young buck, do not disrespect your elders or the women or the children, but learn from them.

This is opening the door for socialized medicine (government) to make the decision for us.

"Citizen 234-X58Q, the district is over its male baby quota for the week. Your recently born male will be terminated."
or
"Citizen 234-X58Q, there was an error in your permit application for a 2nd offspring. Your baby will be terminated upon delivery this morning. You are eligible to reapply for permit 2 days after the termination."

www.rodneyohebsion.com...

Throughout most of Lakota history, family and community were the foundations of life. And for the Lakota, family did not just end at one’s immediate relatives (i.e., siblings, parents, and children). Instead, different families that were bound by blood or marriage ties united together to form a social unit called a tiyospaye, which translates to “member extended family.”

For the Lakota, each person’s acts were often measured in terms of its impact on the entire tiyospaye, and people within the tiyospaye aligned and cooperated together for the good of all of its members. And even though several leaders headed each tiyospaye, there was still a sense of equality among all people. ...

Lakota life was also based on affinity, which to the Lakota involved:

living in harmony with others
having a sense of belonging to one’s community
valuing interpersonal relationships
trusting one another

The ideal of affinity was so strong in the Lakota society that it even went outside the boundaries of one’s tiyospaye and extended to the entire Lakota nation.

cas.umkc.edu...

I already know, that my native friend would lose it and have a great deal to speak on what HONOR is, and what SHAME is.

www.sapphyr.net...

First Philosophy - TO THE WOMEN

The cycle of life for the woman is the baby, girl, woman, and grandmother.
These are the four directions of life.
She has been given by natural laws the ability to reproduce life. The most sacred of all things in life.
Therefore, all men should treat her with dignity and respect.
Never was it our way to harm her mentally or physically. Indian men were never abusers. We always treated our women with respect and understanding.
So, from now on,
I will treat women in a sacred manner.
The Creator gave women the responsibility for bringing new life into the world. Life is sacred, so I will look upon women in a sacred manner.
In our traditional ways, the woman is the foundation of the family......


Second Philosophy - TO THE CHILDREN

As an eagle prepares its young to leave the nest with all the skills and knowledge it needs to participate in life, in the same manner so I will guide my children.
I will use the culture to prepare them for life.
The most important thing I can give to my children is my time.
I will spend time with them in order to learn them and to listen to them.
I will teach my children to pray, as well as the importance of respect.
We are the caretakers of the children for the Creator. They are his children, not ours.
I am proud of our Native language. I will learn it if I can and help my children to learn it.
In today's world it is easy for the children to go astray, so I will work to provide positive alternatives for them....


Fourth Philosophy - TO THE COMMUNITY

The Indian community provides many things for the family. The most important is the sense of belonging; that is, to belong to "the people", and to have a place to go. Our Indian communities need to be restored to health so the future generation will be guaranteed a place to go for culture, language and Indian socializing. In he community, the honor of one is the honor of all and the pain of one is the pain of all. I will work to strengthen recovery in all parts of my community.
As an Indian man,
I will give back to my community by donating my time and talents when I am able.
I will cultivate friendships with other Indian men for mutual support and strength.

But we have mouthpieces of the foolish and depraved leading our nations, wanting to sacrifice our children.

Its time to tell them they don't warrant any of their positions, for they are lacking in all ability to perform them.

reply to post by Unity_99


I see no difference of two weeks pregnant or two weeks old murder is murder . It was only a matter of time before they moved to this stage . I imagine this will be a victory for the pro choice crowd.

Do I think abortion should be used as a form of day-to-day birth control? No.
Do I think victims of rape, incest, or the parents of deformed or mentally defective fetuses should be allowed to terminate a pregnancy? Absolutely.

Religion needs to butt out of the abortion issue. If you believe in a god, then you must also believe that it is up to "god" to judge, not you. If it is evil or wrong to abort an infant, the issue will be sorted out in the next life.
Abortion is not a gateway to child murder.

Let's get back to the idea that there should be an absolute separation of church and state, and move past this issue. That goes for Gay marriage as well.